An ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN the REACTION from the PEANUT GALLERY:
TEACHER EVALUATION by a PERENNIAL STUDENT.
The reason non-professionals like yours truly have entered this slug-fest is a reaction to the absolutist statements made by folks who believe one gets invited to the 'dance' only if one 'can dance with the inside-ski-lifted-flexed-tipped FIRST' ... Let's call it speaking up for the silent majority (it is the majority by the way, who are unaware of these Merlin-esque secrets to good skiing). And yes, the OP question was a fair and reasonable one, it's a technique query, and sure, it can be deployed, and BTS should have explained how, as he seems to understand it best. The reason folks stepped in when outright bad information was provided as fact, as opposed to opinion.
Originally Posted by razie
I find it very interesting though that none of the "people from the other system" are posting in this thread... at least I don't think so. Most of the "pro inside tipping" arguments have been made here by high level instructors and race coaches and racers, even if some details of how that happens are disagreed upon.
...Is it critical? There is universal agreement that yeah, it is. Does it drive outside engagement all by itself? Yeah, sometimes it can, especially in the scenarios for which the thread was created.
Implicit in the underlined prose is an insult to anyone with a contrary view, couched in language which smacks of contempt for contrary views and skiing experience. Therefore the response is direct without any sugar-coating : So who's the "high level instructors and race coaches and racers", you have skied a handful of years ? Sure you coach, and it is great, your enthusiasm should make you fun to have alongside on the mountain, but training and tactics, a bit too much conviction without the experience or miles or knowledge, don't you think? Since you are CSIA, why aren't all CSIA manuals full of references to your heavily advocated technique? Bog is a beginner so sure he can have a view, but he talks like he knows what he is talking about, everyone but me ignores him, he should be flattered! BTS on the other hand seems like a wise, mileage-heavy dude, but his arguments are actually more refined and he does favor leading with inside ski, ok, that's his style and prerogative - so who is master you talk about ? Ghost is definitely experienced and he has a more nuanced opinion, and it is an opinion, he favors one way to ski today, and he has evolved to it, but I see no absolutist remarks from him. 'Universal agreement', did you not read what Jamt or Tdk6 or BTS or Ghost or ... said ? Or is it you have a special insight that even they lack ? Since the phrase 'Universal Agreement' would suggest what it means, if anything, there is one thing for sure, the diametrically opposed contrary view is the prevailing view, and your Universally Agreed Upon moves are the 'secret-sauce' which still is a secret to all but the 'chosen few'.
Originally Posted by razie
Yeah - Marcel is inside ski dominant... as are most Austrians that I can think of.... weird photos - it's like he's skiing on the moon or something...
- Let's see, do you know Marcel Hirscher, are you related to him, do you ski with his coach, did you come within 500 miles of him, his mother, his coach, or anything related to him, so how do you know for certain he is Inside Ski Dominant ? That is the kind of absolutist opinion , which has ZERO basis in fact, or knowledge, it is a pure Wild Guess looking at pictures which is handed down and then there are all these tears and protests about trolls, but it is the inside-ski crew who are blatantly guilty of blanket dissing of any contrary opinions. I mean when this dude CTKook called it a "drill", folks almost burned down their keyboards and the fiber optic cables with the "no f---ing way, it is fundamental, not a drill". That on the face of it is much bull-sh-t, do you start by teaching everyone, let's take beginners, say, ok, now tip that 'inside ankle' and watch yourself turn? Fundamental is the downhill ski, everything else is a refinement, and adapted to the individual skier, some ski with legs closer together, some are very two-footed, some tip their inside ski first, some bomb down that mountain using techniques which defy easy explanation and are enlightening to others . So bulls-t like that gets a reaction. Just because HH or DesLauriers write about it, does not make it fundamental, they like it, and you know it's good for some, of course, no doubt about that. And Lito likes it, but he hardly ever mentions in his by the way, excellent book on skiing. So what's with this Bible-thumping? That is what generates reactions, opinions being presented as fact with no evidence, some imagery which has no value, open to multiple interpretations, and rightfully should be outed as such.
- "as are most Austrians that I can think of" ... let's see how many Austrians have you actually skied with that you make that statement with such authority ? It smacks of made-up bull-sh-t and deserves a reaction, which more courteous folks have said, "people see images and interpret what they want to". I mean Bog sounds like he's got his GoPro mounted on Marcel's Skis and drone attached to his lower extremities, the precision of interpretation and judgements suggests he has a vantage point few others have or have had!
- Let's see I have skied with the several Austrian instructors, all damn good instructors, and a very patient, relaxed guy, and open to many, many different schools as skiers get better; I have skied with the 'Austrian' who was Olympic Downhill Gold Medalist in the 1992 Games in Val D'sere, and World Champion in 1996 in the Downhill. I have skied with many Austrians, French, Swiss, German, Belgian, and of course American and Canadian Skiers. So does it make me an expert on Austrian skiing, no way Jose !! I would be kidding myself if I believed that, am not that deluded.
- I do not pretend to understand what the Austrian 'way' of skiing is. But I will tell you this, every single instructor and that includes the Canadian uber-pro, always says, in off-piste terrain, "get up and get forward". Now do I believe that is the only way to ski, or do they, of course not, but it is a key, fundamental move, which is absolutely essential when the mouth dries up, oxygen gets scarce, and the sphincter can tighten no more, and it is a great way to learn to ski. Bottom line I have no idea how Austrians ski and I have skied with many, question is "how do you know with such Authority" ? Are you the head of the Austrian FIS Team, Coach, friend of Hugo Nindl ? So that is where you get the reaction, you feel me? Since that statement is based on nothing but hot air, a pair of eyes, and pure speculation.
- When Ingmar Stenmark and Alberto Tomba's skiing is suddenly indicative of leading with tipping the inside ski because they lift it, actually demonstrates gross ignorance of skiing with those sorts of skis, not anything related to the OP's question , or the later 'divide'. What is going on here ? Suddenly Tomba and Stenmark are the lead exponents of Tip your Inside Ski FIRST to start your turn, why not JUST ASK THEM? Tomba is a talker, and Stenmark's contemporaries are probably on Epic. Go ask them, not get speculative statements from some small hill denizens about how they skied, when they have not come within 15 years and 1500 miles of these two. Appropriating and enlisting them in 'this' cause was so funny, it became almost regurgitation-worthy. Now 'mods' let that bs pass, sure I liked that, first amendment respect, cool.
- On Epic, Bob Barnes, has his views on how to do things, but you ski with him, he is open to so many ways to skin a ski, that is the mark of mastery, since every one knows, there are many ways to do something well. Some basics help but people surprise us all the time. Look at Zentune, he is nuanced, open to ideas, and he likes and favors the method advocated, that is cool.
Originally Posted by Jamt
I think it is quite natural.
How do you determine that you have all pressure on the outside? -By noticing that you have none on the inside.
If you focus 100% on the outside, how could you ever know that you are balancing on the outside?
Look at this statement, first, no one in their right mind would do just that in the long run, but for the first few years, that is all you need, you figure out the rest, pretty automatically, but without it, there is no skiing, but master that, and you are a master of skiing. And his first sentence was deceptively neutral and gentle "I think it is quite natural." and then bam, pow, a softly delivered knockout, without saying it, he said "you are stupid to focus 100% on the outside ski" , now that is the power of language which provokes, and I don't believe in mincing words, period. And fact is he actually is 'wrong', you do focus on the downhill ski first, and foremost, everything else comes later, while sure, later on, one gets what he is driving at, but it starts with a false premise. Hence you have Cook/Enginner/Atomicman and the inimitable Rainman come in with more flexible outlooks.
And this is a reasonable Swede, or should be, who has called everyone who disagrees a troll. He even had a para earlier which was the best 1 paragraph explanation of how one utilizes the new downhill leg and the new uphill leg, But this is 'bait' , plain and simple, I did not take it, I think, but am pointing it out, so is this above an example of "Trolling" ?
Originally Posted by Bogatyr
The photos I provided above are from Vail/Beaver Creek 14/15 SL and show how skier no 1 of today's wc skiing is using this controversial movement called tipping. Now looking at photo no 2 I remember how some posters here kept repeating through the whole thread that this was a " drill " used by " kids of follower " of " believed system" , that it is not used on highest level of skiing etc. Looking at this photo the neutral specialist will realize how big of nonsence was all that stuff.And sorry , but it is more then clear that this dismissing behavior has its reasons far beyond the pure technical movement analyses . So far I have lived on 2 continents in 3 countries , all of them having beautiful winter resorts and I was able to participate in clinics and meet different coaches . I can say that everywhere there are tensions that exist --- between coaches , between racers ( on ' who is the best basis ') and this is normal , this is the human nature -- everyone wants to be the best and to have better understanding of skiing movements then the others.I understand that here on local level ( I mean USA mainly) there are such tensions and even hate between the official system and its coaches and another system and its coach. I don't want to put my nose in it, but all I know is that this can not be a valid reason to dismiss what the top wc skiers of today do and how they ski , because this is how we learn, we learn from the best. Why should we do otherwise....
This guy is all about QED, he has proposed, demonstrated and proved, ipso facto, 'this is the highest form of skiing' and it is done with his 'nose' or something like that. There is no 'hate' for anything in the instructor world, a lot of the rancor is relegated to the past, a long time ago, now detente and cease fire prevails. The issue is that this 'expert' above, has determined for everyone he understands what is good skiing, and he is a beginner, that is the joke, he likes some great usual suspects, he likes Korean skiing, and all are really good, no question, no doubts. But then there is this underlined bit, really, I mean really? My heart-felt good wishes are of course, go, learn from the best, but please, please, maybe refrain from telling others about it, they really are not looking to find out, they want you to enjoy your skiing.
Get it, folks, I wonder which side is absolutist. The only poster I do not get is BTS, I can tell he is a veteran, what gives ? He knows why there was opposition to some of his more extreme statements, and he likes to ski that way, sure that is cool, but why suggest that anything else is inferior, which is rank bs, and he knows it. One of those mysteries
Think of this as another TEACHER EVALUATION by a PERENNIAL STUDENT.
I am providing Teacher Evaluations Rusty, so ' I think it's done' but who knows, could be a lit match again !
Edited by dustyfog - 7/11/15 at 10:21pm