or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Inside tipping and outside engagement.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

# Inside tipping and outside engagement. - Page 2

not quite.  The turn will not be created without pressure.  Pressure exists from the first instant of the turn, not later...else there will be no turn to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr

I try to follow this conversation, but it makes me kind of dizzy (especially at this late hour), very complicated. And it was supposed to be very simple: early high angles need to be achieved, but not by pressuring or pushing or whatever (nice photos show this above). Forces and gravity will create pressure later in the turn.  That’s it!

My god, I agree with you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683

not quite.  The turn will not be created without pressure.  Pressure exists from the first instant of the turn, not later...else there will be no turn to begin with.

agree. Only the pressure must come in a natural way, from speed and gravity and not from a specific pushing we do (just like on the 3rd photo above, after the gate)

One must be careful to take advice for a particular situation and particular ability in context, and not apply it too broadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr

I try to follow this conversation, but it makes me kind of dizzy (especially at this late hour), very complicated. And it was supposed to be very simple: early high angles need to be achieved, but not by pressuring or pushing or whatever (nice photos show this above). Forces and gravity will create pressure later in the turn.  That’s it!

I feel your pain... But see if this makes sense.

Gravity Plays two unique and separate roles in skiing.

First and foremost it is the force that provides velocity due to the fact that we are a mass and skiing is done on a slanted, slippery surface.

Second, gravity is also the force against which we balance to keep from falling down...... UNTIL a greater force comes along to replace it... and in the case of skiing that is centripetal force.

Gravity is a constant PULLING force and the only thing that stops you from ending up in the center of the earth is the surface below your feet. The maximum CONSTANT force you can apply on that surface is your weight. Your weight will clearly bend a ski but only to the point of removing the skis camber (give or take) when placed on edge.

Centripetal force is an "inward" PUSHING force resulting from a mass leaving linear travel and being redirected into a circular path. Centripetal Force IS NOT a constant force. It gets born, grows and if not perpetuated, it will die.

In skiing, pressure needed to bend a ski begins under the pull of gravity and ends under the push of centripetal force.

THIS IS THE BOTTOM LINE  with velocity, pitch and surface conditions determining the mix of physical movements and percentage of the turn spent under each of the two forces.  All technique is based on this with one's frame of reference determining their position on the issues.

So I have no problem understanding BTS's and Rich's points of view because I can map what they are writing back to square one.

My final point is this.  As Humans we are gravity experts not centripetal experts that is what really needs to be learned and mastered in skiing. It is also why we find so many skiers reacting to gravity (because it is what we do) and not finding centripetal.

While your theory seem logical to me , I still don’t see how in practice students will benefit to start making more effective movements : create early high angles, remain in balance throughout the turn , apply even natural pressure (and how they will measure the amount of   Centripetal Force needed to counter the gravity  to maintain the arc rather then fly straight down the slope)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr

While your theory seem logical to me , I still don’t see how in practice students will benefit to start making more effective movements : create early high angles, remain in balance throughout the turn , apply even natural pressure (and how they will measure the amount of   Centripetal Force needed to counter the gravity  to maintain the arc rather then fly straight down the slope)

Hence, terrain parks.
As one who takes the lessons rather than give them, pulling the inside foot back as I shorten that leg seems to help me tip the inside ski on edge to engage the tip or hit that "sweet spot". Correct? As I was working on this at the end of last season, it felt like it caused the outside ski to engage on edge with the snow more naturally. I would then feel the pressure building in that outside leg through the turn. This was a new sensation for me. I suspect that I was previously turning my feet too much to initiate a turn with even pressure on both skis and then pushing on the outside leg to bend that ski rather than let the centripetal forces build pressure to bend my skis. I believe I've had this confusion because I still don't see how one can tip their ankle in a rigid ski boot to tip that ski. Its more intuitive to me to "pressure" my little toe or big toe to get pressure on the inside or outside edge of the respective ski. I think concentrating on pulling my inside foot back distracted me from pushing with my outside leg.

Just 2 cents from an intermediate trying to get off the plateau...
Rich, I'm not sure what you are saying that you think I am asserting, it doesn't sound like anything I have said...
[/quote]

"seen in that video, is BEFORE neutral and is really part of the release of the old turn, not part of the tipping on the BTE that FOM asked about)."

That is what I thought you meant here. It sounds like you are saying he drops his CoM when flexing to release into the transition phase.

I am contending that the drop of CoM is to meet the centripetal up force with resistance which, in turn, creates more pressure.

I didn't say anything about dropping the CoM and I don't see how that relates to the discussion.  I simply was referring to the releasing phase since you provided video you feel he is pushing down with muscular force in.  I'm saying that is happening in the releasing phase, rather the the initiation phase.  Releasing can be accomplished a number of ways, flexing to release, or dropping the CoM as you put it, is not implicit.

You are referring to him pushing down on his uphill ski, but what I see in that video is happening while releasing out of the old turn...ie...before the skis are flat.

The discussion at hand is more about the initiation phase while moving onto the downhill edges.

Clearly Ligety is doing a number of things to deal with 35m skis to make them carve a tighter line.  He's putting a great deal of effort into making sure he is weighted on the outside ski from the first instant and bending that ski to make it carve.  I personally don't feel that him pushing down or out on his ski has the effect you think it does, it has more to do with the way he counters early and gets his weight balanced over that ski.  IMHO Ligety is actually a little weak with his downhill leg releasing in fact, because he is so focused on "getting over it", that he's late with with activating the inside leg...often getting substantial A-frame through transition...not that this is particularly a problem, he won races this way!  But the little push down move you see there, in my opinion is what he is doing to compensate for his late and week downhill leg release.  He's gotta go up and over a bit.  You can see him move his CoM up as he moves across.  Yea that is a push down he is using to move himself up to move across.  Its not related to the OP's question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666

I might agree that in the way he was speaking was a bit casual and "off the cuff" as well as know that is not what he would coach today.

But are you also saying that you see no down pressure at all in his turns? I see it and feel it is clearly obvious in his turns. A good example below. Yes, most of his pressure is coming up from the ski tipped high, but you see a clear amount of down pressure to start most of these turns and even a few towards the end of the turn from stepping off the ski. Ligity is good at what he does in part due to his being an athletic biomechanical multitasker extraordinaire. Dropping some vertical CoM into a high angle carved turn can get you in trouble if you overshoot your drop but, otherwise, the collusion of up and downward forces gives the skier more control over timing and amount of pressure than only all one or all of the other.

I wish I could turn like that.. I mean, I can get low at times though knee braces and lack of ROM reduce my ability to get really deep and low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XLTL

As one who takes the lessons rather than give them, pulling the inside foot back as I shorten that leg seems to help me tip the inside ski on edge to engage the tip or hit that "sweet spot". Correct? As I was working on this at the end of last season, it felt like it caused the outside ski to engage on edge with the snow more naturally. I would then feel the pressure building in that outside leg through the turn. This was a new sensation for me. I suspect that I was previously turning my feet too much to initiate a turn with even pressure on both skis and then pushing on the outside leg to bend that ski rather than let the centripetal forces build pressure to bend my skis. I believe I've had this confusion because I still don't see how one can tip their ankle in a rigid ski boot to tip that ski. Its more intuitive to me to "pressure" my little toe or big toe to get pressure on the inside or outside edge of the respective ski. I think concentrating on pulling my inside foot back distracted me from pushing with my outside leg.

Just 2 cents from an intermediate trying to get off the plateau...

I'm staying out of this conversation while keeping up with it.  Just want to say good for you for getting rid of the part above I've highlighted in red.  That way of starting a turn is too, too common out there.

The parts about pulling back and tipping the new inside leg to the little toe edge are spot on.  Some will say don't pull anything back, but hey it works for many people for various reasons so do it if you're one of those.  It's all part of a process of increasing skill level.

The part in blue - yes you can.  Tipping at the ankle will start your skis tipping if your boots are good and snug (doesn't count if you're in a Ligety hip-on-snow situation).  When you tip your new inside foot at the ankle to its little toe edge, you'll feel the ankle bending sideways a tiny-little-bit inside the boot.  But what's really important -- is you'll actually be tipping the ski without relying on leaning your whole body over, and without moving your hip over.  You'll be starting down at the snow, with your foot.  You can do this in the house with boots on, in front of a mirror, to see what else is going on.  Notice that there will be some necessary knee involvement.

Edited by LiquidFeet - 6/10/15 at 3:02pm

In my experience, even if your ski boots are rock hard, with cast in place concrete-like liners, attempting to tip your feet in the normal way you would do in bare feet triggers the natural body movements that will make for better skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralba

I wish I could turn like that.. I mean, I can get low at times though knee braces and lack of ROM reduce my ability to get really deep and low.

Yes, knee braces can definitely cramp one's style but there are other things you can do to get there. A big factor in the ability for a recreational skier to emulate some of the WC turn dynamics would be to get a softer flexing ski with a 12 - 13 m side cut. This will allow for reaching some of those angles at slower speeds. You can improve the lateral balance required over the summer by carving turns on any type of inline skate. Of course adding strength over the off season never hurts. I don't think getting low and deep is a good goal but rather the results of reaching a number of smaller goals. For a lot of people, privates are cost prohibitive but things are changing there too. There are a ton of resources online, youtube, etc. that along with getting video of your skiing to share online is going to be the way to go for more and more people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost

In my experience, even if your ski boots are rock hard, with cast in place concrete-like liners, attempting to tip your feet in the normal way you would do in bare feet triggers the natural body movements that will make for better skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

The parts about pulling back and tipping the new inside leg to the little toe edge are spot on.  Some will say don't pull anything back, but hey it works for many people for various reasons so do it if you're one of those.  It's all part of a process of increasing skill level.

The part in blue - yes you can.  Tipping at the ankle will start your skis tipping if your boots are good and snug (doesn't count if you're in a Ligety hip-on-snow situation).  When you tip your new inside foot at the ankle to its little toe edge, you'll feel the ankle bending sideways a tiny-little-bit inside the boot.  But what's really important -- is you'll actually be tipping the ski without relying on leaning your whole body over, and without moving your hip over.  You'll be starting down at the snow, with your foot.  You can do this in the house with boots on, in front of a mirror, to see what else is going on.  Notice that there will be some necessary knee involvement.

Thanks for the insights. I don't doubt you both are right, just that it doesn't click with me when I'm skiing. No "ah, ha!" moment like I got the first time I pulled my inside foot back. I'll have to work on that next season. I do like the feel of my skis glued to the snow so I think this means I like early engagement. But how does one get angulation, if I got the term right, without moving my hip over (hip dumping?). I've read disparaging things about hip dumping, yet many photos of WC skiers clearing a gate shows a hip practically touching the ground. I hope this is an acceptable amount of thread drift for the OP.

I still have a hard time to understand exactly how the theoretical mambo-jumbo created here will answer the op’s original questions about the timing for pressure/engagement and how it will change the way he transfers this over to his students. I also wonder how it helps skiers on a real slope do more efficient movements. I say real slope since someone mentioned earlier he only skis on his i-phone application.( I was kind of shocked to read this.) Anyway, what I want to say is that skiing is simple and it is good to be kept and seen that way. The great theoretical knowledge is best kept in books and dvds so the rest of us can learn. A few words about Ligety,s skiing (he was given as an example above) While it can be a pleasure to watch him skiing and making arcs on  35 m radius ski, his way of skiing is not something I would try to emulate and I  don’t see his unique  kind of  skiing as the best  example that correspond to OP’s inquires. I would rather  give as un example  the skiing of   2 other WC athletes and see how and when they apply pressure in their skiing . And these are Marcel Hirscher and Anna Fenninger. Two skiers with impeccable and EASY to understand and emulate skiing technique.

The mumbo jumbo is just to pass the summer. The OP will answer his own question in 5 minutes on snow come October.
Quote:
Originally Posted by XLTL
.....
Thanks for the insights. I don't doubt you both are right, just that it doesn't click with me when I'm skiing. No "ah, ha!" moment like I got the first time I pulled my inside foot back. I'll have to work on that next season. I do like the feel of my skis glued to the snow so I think this means I like early engagement. But how does one get angulation, if I got the term right, without moving my hip over (hip dumping?). I've read disparaging things about hip dumping, yet many photos of WC skiers clearing a gate shows a hip practically touching the ground. I hope this is an acceptable amount of thread drift for the OP.

Lift the new inside knee up as you tip its ankle (inside the boot) to its little toe edge.  That ski won't come off the snow, but this will cause that side of your body will drop, thus the skis will edge.  Keep torso upright as you do this, and keep it facing the apex of the next turn as the turn progresses.  Angulation will be accomplished at the top of the turn as a result of this foot/leg action instead of moving the hip. No guarantee that this will help you look like Ligety at the gate, however.

--Extra thought:  pay attention to the top of that inside boot cuff as you do this.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move out or away.  This helps prevent the body from moving back over the tails of the skis.

--Another thought:  pay attention to where the inside foot is relative to the hip above it.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move forward or downhill of that hip.  Pulling that foot back does the trick, usually. Keeping that foot under you prevents the body from falling back over the tails (or alternatively, it keeps the skis from sliding forward in front of the body).

The difference between those beloved images of world cup racers at the gate and our mortal attempts to look like them is that they get that hip down there before their skis point down the fall line on skis that are carving very fast.  In doing this they are not trying to manufacture a look; they are doing whatever it takes to get around those gates as fast as possible, manipulating the turn radius with all that they do.  Our attempts to look like them are not motivated so purely.

Edited by LiquidFeet - 6/11/15 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

--Extra thought:  pay attention to the top of that inside boot cuff as you do this.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move out or away.  This helps prevent the body from moving back over the tails of the skis.

--Another thought:  pay attention to where the inside foot is relative to the hip above it.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move forward or downhill of that hip.  Pulling that foot back does the trick, usually. Keeping that foot under you prevents the body from falling back over the tails (or alternatively, it keeps the skis from sliding forward in front of the body).

Great points LF!  However my frame of reference for those good words is not about preventing something (which indeed it does) but about what it promotes and that is the all important "Shovel bending".

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

--Extra thought:  pay attention to the top of that inside boot cuff as you do this.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move out or away.  This helps prevent the body from moving back over the tails of the skis.

--Another thought:  pay attention to where the inside foot is relative to the hip above it.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move forward or downhill of that hip.  Pulling that foot back does the trick, usually. Keeping that foot under you prevents the body from falling back over the tails (or alternatively, it keeps the skis from sliding forward in front of the body).

Great points LF!  However my frame of reference for those good words is not about preventing something (which indeed it does) but about what it promotes and that is the all important "Shovel bending".

I hesitate to say the phrase "knee angulation."

As a late blooming skier intent upon advancing as fast as possible before I reach 80  I pay close attention to technical differences in turn mechanics, especially initiations.

I've found that learning to do this "knee angulation" thing (including the ankle tipping) has been one of the biggest skill-bumper-uppers out there.

Get the job done fast enough on skis that you can bend, and the shovel will do its magic.

Thanks again LF. I'm also a late starter at 50, now 56, so trying to learn as quickly as possible. These forums really help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

I hesitate to say the phrase "knee angulation."

As a late blooming skier intent upon advancing as fast as possible before I reach 80  I pay close attention to technical differences in turn mechanics, especially initiations.

I've found that learning to do this "knee angulation" thing (including the ankle tipping) has been one of the biggest skill-bumper-uppers out there.

Get the job done fast enough on skis that you can bend, and the shovel will do its magic.

Call it what you will. It's an important acknowledgement of the role that the inside plays in a turn.

Just one other comment for discussion's sake..... I have mixed feelings on "pulling the inside foot back under the hip"  Not because that is where it belongs but because we should not have pull it back if we maintain active inside alignment during transition.   I know it is a great "remedy" drill to give the student the "feel" but I do a lot of clarification when using it so that "pulling back"  does not become part of their technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogatyr

I still have a hard time to understand exactly how the theoretical mambo-jumbo created here will answer the op’s original questions about the timing for pressure/engagement and how it will change the way he transfers this over to his students. I also wonder how it helps skiers on a real slope do more efficient movements. I say real slope since someone mentioned earlier he only skis on his i-phone application.( I was kind of shocked to read this.) Anyway, what I want to say is that skiing is simple and it is good to be kept and seen that way. The great theoretical knowledge is best kept in books and dvds so the rest of us can learn. A few words about Ligety,s skiing (he was given as an example above) While it can be a pleasure to watch him skiing and making arcs on  35 m radius ski, his way of skiing is not something I would try to emulate and I  don’t see his unique  kind of  skiing as the best  example that correspond to OP’s inquires. I would rather  give as un example  the skiing of   2 other WC athletes and see how and when they apply pressure in their skiing . And these are Marcel Hirscher and Anna Fenninger. Two skiers with impeccable and EASY to understand and emulate skiing technique.

OK Bogatry you have a good point but before I show you my answer, let me say that skiing is not simple unless your image of skiing is headed straight down the hill in a suicidal bent. Circular travel on skis is not intuitive and not governed by forces we are familiar with in everyday life. The problem with this and many other threads is that assumptions are made that are not valid like circular travel on skis is the norm and that somehow simply engaging an edge will produce an intended outcome.

Anyway,  My answer to FOM's questions:

Is it necessary for the new outside ski to be pressured/engaged for the inside tipping to be effective? Yes but the initial outside engagement is on the little toe edge not the big toe edge

If you answer yes to the above do you establish that pressure/engagement before, after or at edge change?  Before

How do you describe establishing and maintaining that pressure/engagement to yourself and your students? Just watch Mikaela

Quote:

Originally Posted by JESINSTR
.....

How do you describe establishing and maintaining that pressure/engagement to yourself and your students? Just watch Mikaela

I submit that Michaela's drill, with its focus on extending off the little toe edge of the old inside ski (ILE), is an advanced approach to initiating a turn.

Note that the people doing this drill are racers in training, who already know how to balance on their skis and carve their turns without the usual intermediate-type-foibles.

The drill is an advanced one because there are too many ways to goof up this extension by turning it into an up-unweight-pivot-stem-and-brace type turn.

I consider ILE the next step for people who already know how to flex the new inside leg and tip that ankle to release effectively (OLR).

The flexing and tipping and movement of the body across the skis downhill needs to be in place first, because it's so hard to learn to do.

LF do you know Eric Lipton? He is East coast based and would likely change your mind about when and where to do a foot to foot weight transfer. You don't have ty o be an expert to do step turns though. They are a move from skiing's past when Stenmark ruled the race world.
At the other end of the spectrum is what BTS called white pass initiations. Although it should be noted inclination early is much more prevelent in white pass turns. Interestingly enough the Mahres were credited with developing that move and they were contemporaries of Stenmark. So the adage about nothing being new seems appropriate here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

Quote:
Originally Posted by JESINSTR
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet

--Extra thought:  pay attention to the top of that inside boot cuff as you do this.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move out or away.  This helps prevent the body from moving back over the tails of the skis.

--Another thought:  pay attention to where the inside foot is relative to the hip above it.  Keep it under that hip; don't let it move forward or downhill of that hip.  Pulling that foot back does the trick, usually. Keeping that foot under you prevents the body from falling back over the tails (or alternatively, it keeps the skis from sliding forward in front of the body).

Great points LF!  However my frame of reference for those good words is not about preventing something (which indeed it does) but about what it promotes and that is the all important "Shovel bending".

I hesitate to say the phrase "knee angulation."

As a late blooming skier intent upon advancing as fast as possible before I reach 80  I pay close attention to technical differences in turn mechanics, especially initiations.

I've found that learning to do this "knee angulation" thing (including the ankle tipping) has been one of the biggest skill-bumper-uppers out there.

Get the job done fast enough on skis that you can bend, and the shovel will do its magic.

I also encountered the "knee angulation" thing and checked it out.  While pushing the knees to one side will tip the skis and they will carve, it is not at all the same as tipping from the ankles.  It doesn't feel the same, and I found it has limits in how far you can go.  Initiation with a knee movement hinders balance on the outside ski.  It also feels like pushing a rope.  IMHO, it is best to stick with tip the skis and allow the knees to follow the ski's tipping rather than push the skis over with the knees.

tipping your skis with your knees is a bit like saying, let's steer our car by moving our elbows.

You steer your car by moving your hands.   Yes your elbows move too.   But who thinks about it that way besides people with prosthetic forearms?

When you tip your inside ski by focusing on your ankle, even allowing the ankle to mobilize inside the ski boot, the entire tibia is activated in a way that contributes to the action and results in the knee moving inside.  Other muscles higher up in the leg are also definitely involved in the process.   Its not only the ankles or only the knee, but focusing on the ankle activates a bunch of stuff in the ankle and tibia which can otherwise remain inactivated if you instead focus on moving the knee and hoping for the ski to tip.

Me personally I have found that focusing on the ankle initially is most effective, but later as the turn progresses my focus seems to shift more to the knee as I am trying to flex it to shorten it, and while I'm doing that I crank it way inside at the same time.

BTS, the idea of centrpital forces is interesting. If they are a reaction force that implies a centrifugal force must be present first. I am referencing the idea of Equal and Opposite forces as prescribed by Newton.

In the world of skiing I would say our speed and direction of travel are governed mostly by Gravity and it can be either a centrifugal, or a centripital acting force, depending on which part of a turn you are talking about. In other words it can cause the new turn to start without any contact reaction force coming back up from the snow. (Think about decaying trajectories for a moment and the rest should be obvious).

It is for this reason that I say it is the pull of gravity that dictates how aggressively we extend the outside leg, tip the inside ski, allow the torso to migrate into the new turn. Also consider what we are trying to do might vary from a patience turn where Gravity pulls us into the new turn, or we might be doing a comma shaped turn where the strong shaping phase occurs very early. That is why I contend that no one release and re-engagement move would cover all possible turn options. Learning them all arms us better for what might occur as we ski (Mikela will alway be remembered for the white pass recovery in Sochi) and It is for this very reason that I contend Adaptability and Versatility through ownership of a variety of movement options is preferable to the one way only mantra.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/12/15 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

That is why I contend that no one release and re-engagement would cover all possible turn options. Learning them all arms us better for what might occur as we ski. It is for this very reason that I contend Adaptability and Versatility through ownership of a variety of movement options is preferable to the one way only mantra.

totally agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro

.... That is why I contend that no one release and re-engagement would cover all possible turn options. Learning them all arms us better for what might occur as we ski. It is for this very reason that I contend Adaptability and Versatility through ownership of a variety of movement options is preferable to the one way only mantra.

This is the way I think about it.  Divide and conquer rather than seek the one true way.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching