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Help this big fat old guy find a pr of skis like his old 200 cm Atomic Beta Carv 10 - 20s

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

I am 67 yrs old 6' 3" 275 lbs. I have one damaged knee held together with spit and string. Before I damaged my knee I was a go anywhere ski anything sort of skier with good technical skills. Now I ski very conservatively and protect my knee which is my limiting factor. I can ski for 3 to 5 hrs staying on piste in good light conditions, however one short run in slush or Sierra cement finishes me for the day.

 

I ski about 15 days a year. Usually based in SLC for 3-4 weeks Virtually all my skiing is on piste  and I like making GS style turns at moderate to fairly fast speeds.

 

This would be the only pr of skis I would have.

 

I do not like anything shorter than 190 cm Currently I have a pr of Atomic Beta Ride 8.20 190cm Downhill Skis They are OK but I really would like the extra 10 cms that I had with my 200 cm Atomic Beta Carv 10 - 20s [ Long gone }

 

I tried a pr of Volkl Platinum P40 skis at 195 or 200 which I really liked but as they were heavy it made my knee tired too quickly.

 

Is there any ski available that is similar to the Atomic Beta Carv which was light stiff and at least 190cms but 200cms would be better.  

 

Or does anyone know of a pr of unused Atomiv Beta Carv 10 20s at 200 cms. ?

post #2 of 27
I have a pr in pristine condition with plates but no bindings.
post #3 of 27

Next time that you are in SLC demo a modern ski as you will find most new skis lighter, more stable, and easier to turn than a Beta 10-20.

post #4 of 27

^ as above I don't know why you'd restrict yourself to a ski with the feel of something 15 years old.  Plus you might find something that opens up some ungroomed to you.

post #5 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
 

Next time that you are in SLC demo a modern ski as you will find most new skis lighter, more stable, and easier to turn than a Beta 10-20.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
 

^ as above I don't know why you'd restrict yourself to a ski with the feel of something 15 years old.  Plus you might find something that opens up some ungroomed to you.


What these guys say is truth. 

There are many skis out there that are better than the Beta at this time.  If you insist on the feel of that ski then maybe one of the Atomic Nomads or perhaps Salomon Enduro.  But still, try something with current technology and you'll be happy you did.

post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 

You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks.

 

I have had a demo session with modern stuff but just feel insecure and am consistently over turning which again makes me feel insecure.

 

Prior to destroying my knee I skied on Authier 215s and all my muscle memory is built around those I think.

 

I will follow up on the lead the bear in post 2 gave.

post #7 of 27

The limiting factor here may be the knee;  before we can start talking about increased waist widths and their possible effects on knees -

 

have you had any serious boot work/fitting done since the injury? 

post #8 of 27

Perhaps the OP's knee precludes shorter turns??  Given the consequences they experienced after a single run in slush/Sierra Cement, I think I'd get that knee taken care of (PT, surgery if necessary) first.

post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 

I am going to get so much s**t when I tell you what boots I have. They are Salomon SX 92 Equipes. I looked around in the early 80s and found that the Early Salomons SX 90 equipes gave me great control with comfort. I have high arches and very broad feet. When my 90s broke I tried a range of 4 clip boots but they aall felt like I had less control unless done up to the pain level. I stumbled into a pair of 92 Equipes and all was great again. I have had a session with a Salomon boot fitter who knows these boots mainly about canting and he thinks they are set up well for me. There is NO WAY I will consider changing boots..

 

I have good control good feel for the skis and I can ski all day in comfort.

 

Re the knee I separated both cruciates and the medial collateral 1n 1988 I only have one cruciate but some of the smaller ligaments muscles on the outside were moved to do the job of the missing ligament. I am lucky in that the surgeon who did the work was the guy who did the UK footballers knees so really knew his stuff. Even so I was expected to need a stick or a crutch for the rest of my days. God bless the physio who helped get me back on my feet and my skis.

 

So the knee is in part held together with muscles and it is these that crap out on me. I was told I might need an artificial knee by my mid 50s but the messages I get are to put it off as long as I can.

 

The stuff I tried on demo were all 176 - 180 and while they were OK when I tried this used pr of Volkl Platinum P40s the next day I knew right away that I was happier on the longer stiffer ski.

 

The Atomic Beta Rides are a little lighter and that means I can ski longer before the knee cries uncle.

 

I do not know if this is relevant but I ski with the din setting at 3 for the damaged knee and 6 for the other.

 

I can do short radius turns if I have to eg on a steep narrow piste but what I really enjoy is letting the skis run and carving big wide turns at speed. That brings a big grin to my face and is easy on the knee.

post #10 of 27
Still not sure I get the biomechanics of having longer skis being helpful to knee safety/health. Width sure is a bit of a problem but most people seem OK up to 90mm or so. Modern constructions can make stuff so much lighter yet retain oompf or torsional rigidity in shorter wider skis. What about the oversize punter GS skis? Ever tried them.


BTW one day those boots will shatter on you. Seen it happen.
post #11 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post

Still not sure I get the biomechanics of having longer skis being helpful to knee safety/health. Width sure is a bit of a problem but most people seem OK up to 90mm or so. Modern constructions can make stuff so much lighter yet retain oompf or torsional rigidity in shorter wider skis. What about the oversize punter GS skis? Ever tried them.


BTW one day those boots will shatter on you. Seen it happen.

 

 oversize punter GS skis ? I have never heard of these. Can you give me a link?

 

As for the Salomons shattering I am aware of the risk, My old 90s did crack and I was forced to try / buy 4 clip boots which did not work for me. I had actually decided to  give up skiing when I found the 92s. on Craigslist in Denver. Despite only having one day left before I flew back to my boat in the Caribbean I drove down to Denver from Summit County and tried them on. My feet said hurray pay the man and next day I was back in Salomon heaven.

post #12 of 27
Head GTO's might be the thing for you. Modern but avail in 200 length.
post #13 of 27

Thinking of stuff like the Rossi Oversize 8 or 9 though that's an old ski.  Basically most manufacturers make skis in the "piste performance" bracket with a longer radius but wider and less aggressive than true race badged skis .It's kinda bread and butter. 

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by TQA View Post

You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks.

I have had a demo session with modern stuff but just feel insecure and am consistently over turning which again makes me feel insecure.

Prior to destroying my knee I skied on Authier 215s and all my muscle memory is built around those I think.

I will follow up on the lead the bear in post 2 gave.

Have you had your alignment checked by a boot fitter or looked at by a coach? Knee injury stuff and the sensations you're attributing to 'modern' skis allude to something else going on that's exasperating your knee issues. Are you significantly bow legged by chance?
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
 

Thinking of stuff like the Rossi Oversize 8 or 9 though that's an old ski.  Basically most manufacturers make skis in the "piste performance" bracket with a longer radius but wider and less aggressive than true race badged skis .It's kinda bread and butter. 

 

 

Yes...but...don't forget he wants it to be significantly lighter than a Volkl P40 Pt, but also stiff enough to feel like a GS ski under 275lbs.       It will not be a trivial thing to find such a critter, esp. since he wants to run his bindings  way way low  (see above) .    In the stiff and light stakes, the 10.20 had the huge advantage of being a beta profile ski.

 

 

post #16 of 27

I could write a novel on this subject. The transition to the more current ski technology by older males skiers. I'm 60, and I'm fortunate to ski a lot {60+ days or more a season}, to be healthy, and to ski well. I have an extensive background in the sport, as does my wife. One of our adult kids coaches….probably 300 days a season on snow. The other "only" skis about 8 months a year, maybe 80-90 days. But, I have a lot of guy friends, including some really big guys with a variety of older nagging sports injuries, who ski less, and have been through this very transition. They buy skis much less frequently, so the jumps in design are bigger. This recent one, from skis that are 8 or 10 years old in some cases, to the latest design has been the biggest, and often the most confusing. 

 

Almost every one of them was less than inspired when they first demo'd or tried a newer ski. Some just couldn't "get" what the big deal was. Others decided after a couple of runs that they sucked, and were a horrific step backwards. Others actually tried them over a two or three day time span, and came away 100% sold. 

These are guys who cover a wide range of current skill, but most were pretty strong skiers at one time. Some have slowed down, some are more cautiously adventurous in their skiing. Some just still "send it." I think they all texted, or called me, though, when sorting this new ski thing out. 

 

I'm in no position to offer TQA and advice on the knee. I ski occasionally with guys who have had knee replacement surgery, those who are about to have it, and those who are going to have it done at some point. Common theme…..all big guys who played football or hockey through college. By big…250-300 lbs. Most of these guys have made the move to a newer ski, a wider ski, and a shorter ski than what they once skied. And they all tell me that they feel "better" on their skis, ski more confidently in more conditions and terrain, ski a bit longer day when the conditions are good, and feel that they are easier on the body. 

 

The trick is to find a ski that works with TQA's size, and will also work in anything, anywhere, that he'd like to ski. Put the confidence in the head, smile on the face. I think that there's a solution out there that will expand his ski days a bit, and hopefully stop the need to end the day after that one run in the slush, or heavier fresh. And then, the trick is to ski a few days on it to get used to it, and to learn how to make it work for the pilot. 

 

I'm going to pick one group of skis, strictly because I have hundreds of days on them, as do my wife and my adult kids. The Blizzard Filpcore. The ski is overhyped to be sure. It's been the darling of every ski magazine and online ski rating thing around. Great marketing.  A lot of people buy them cold turkey. A WIDE range of skiers end up on them. Our daughter is a former NCAA/NorAM racer. She's a small woman, and she skis a 180cm 98mm Bonafide most days in the Rockies. She can rip. But she'll often find herself on a lift with a 55 year old vacationer, who's not a really great skier on the very same ski. And, they both agree that they love the ski. The vacationer skids it, "slarves" it, pivots it, and it feels damp at what he considers "fast". He's confident. My daughter gets it up on  huge edge angle on firm snow, makes any size turn shape on it, blasts through tight tree lines, and will ski it in up to a foot of new snow or tracked out crud. 

 

The point is that those newer skis, regardless of the brand, the specific design, the lay-up, are just "better" for an enormous range of skiers. They make things easier for people. They enable the majority of skiers to do more. For a skilled skier, they enable a two or three ski quiver to cover it all. 

 

I have a hunch that TQA would find, after 2-3 days on a newer ski, and perhaps with a bit of advice in terms of how to ski them, that a newer ski would make his ski days better. More confidence in what he now likes to ski, maybe a bit easier on the knee, and more confidence inspiring in some of that slush, or the 4-6" of heavier new snow. Maybe turns a 5 run day into an 8 run day. Just a hunch. 

 

I was racing in the 70's on a 212cm Dynamic GS, and on 207cm SL's. I had a pair of real-deal 230cm DH skis. I could take you decade by decade though the ski changes, and my experience. My ski tuning shop keeps a record of skis that they tune, by skier. They've been in business for just under 20 years. They have over 100 pairs of skis in my log {I won't say how far over…} So, yeah, I've been there. I recall buying a 193cm K2 Merlin, then a 188cm K2 Four. In 2003 I bought a 184cm Stockli Stormrider XL, one of the first race layup, slightly wider GS-like skis. I am convinced that the right, newer 187-188cm ski will be PLENTY of length for TQA. A 187cm is as long as some of these skis are made. They work. 

 

My shameless plug is that I have a bunch of skis that I'll be selling in the fall. Some unused. I have one pair on the Gear Forum: lightly skied 187cm Brahma's. Available with an unused STH13 Solly binding {5-13 DIN}, among other options. I ski narrower skis on super hard snow {which is my home hill}, and wider most days, and these have been sitting. That ski has become the ski of choice of a number of my big guy friends. Not the end all, but a decent option. Does everything that these guys want it to do. Unfortunately none ski enough to need a second pair right now, HaHa. 

 

There are a ton of great newer skis out there, made by a lot of companies. All sorts of personal preference, but the common thinking is that they're "better." I feel that TQA would really like almost any of them more than the Beta Carv's, once he takes a few days to get used to them. If the knee is stable "enough", and his alignment is reasonably sound, I think he'll be fine with a ski under 90mm wide. That is just a hunch. I'm guessing that he'll ski them like most people do…which is not pushing them out far away from his body, creating a lot of separation and edge angles. And that's just fine. 

 

I'm not going to go longer with any discussion on ski weight. Some of these newer skis, particularly when set up with demo bindings, or an all metal race binding, and plate, weigh a ton. I don't think that you'll find one that's a lightweight, like the women's Head Joy series, but I also think that there's a perception that many skis ski heavier than they do. Just my experience. I think that TQA would benefit from a layup that includes some metal. Agree that handling 275lbs and being a light ski is a tough equation to solve. I'm actually wondering if light helps, or not. Dunno.

 

Just my $.02. 

post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muleski View Post
 

 

Just my $.02. 

 

No disagreement with any of your points.

As I see it, TQA has two pathways here:

1 Check alignment and boot -> demo wide range of current skis -> possibly update skillset

 

2 Stay with current alignment and boot -> find light and stiff ski with light binding ->  have the same amount of fun doing the same kinds of stuff (until the boot breaks).

 

Now, I really do think he should go down path 1 sooner than later, but we've beat him over the head about that to just about the limit of what politeness allows.   

So, the only thing left for us to do is to help him find that unicorn ski and binding combo for path 2.   Which we should be qualified to do, at least more than he is.

post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 

Thank you for all the above.

 

Not bow legged or pigeon toed.

 

Yes I have had my boots checked out and I have them tweaked to suit me.

 

I have skied about 15 days on modern 180 all mountain skis and while they will do if there was nothing else available, the grin factor ramps up when I go back to something stiffer and longer. Also I feel safer and more confident..

 

Thanks for the Heads up on the Head GTO 200s they sound like the sort of thing I am looking for. Now if they are just not too heavy! Does anyone have a weight for them? Head no longer make them so can't find out anything on their web site. There is a new pr on offer at $200 which seems to good to be true as they were $1400.

post #19 of 27

There are some older Head skis that are not only coveted, they are downright impossible to find, and command good prices. The original SuperShape is one. TT80's are now another. Neither a good choice for TQA, as they are short carvers, but it's a data point that people seek out those older, out of production Head skis. The good ones. 

 

TQA, I have skied the GTO 200's. It was an interesting experiment by Head, and it was targeted at older, well to do skiers, all men, who liked the thought of a longer "race like ski" that would still turn. The pitch was a long, fast cruiser. But the design didn't match the pitch, or the target, to my thinking. It was probably the only 200cm ski made with a 17 or 18M radius. At the time there were 188cm to 191 or 192cm GS skis being made with 27, 28 to 30M radius. The GTO had a waist that was more narrow than any GS ski, and a pretty wide tip. Maybe 120mm? I'm going from memory. They were relatively stiff, not as stiff as their race skis at the time {even the consumer race stock skis}, and I think they had less metal in them, but some. 

 

When it came to skiing them, they responded best when somebody drove the tip, which was a stiff like GS skis of the day, and got the ski up on edge to use that side cut. And if you did that, and got BOTH skis on edge, it would make consistent turns. But not a GS shaped turn…a tighter turn. However, there are a heck of a lot of other skis that did it easier, and better. My son was a Head athlete at the time they were released. He got me a pair to try. I was pretty blah on them. They target market was guys my age. The problem was that if you were a bit on the old school technique, no matter how strong a skier you were, the ski was problematic. If you stood on the downhill ski, and got it on edge, it would tend to hook up. If you didn't have the uphill ski on edge, and we're skiing with basically parallel shins, you'd have one ski hooking up, and the other acting kind of squirrely. You had to be centered on the skis. It absolutely did NOT want to ski in a straight line, at least for me. It always wanted to be on edge, and turning. And I had skied an awful lot of skis that seemed to do everything better, for me. I was about 235 lbs at the time. 

 

Not so sure that it would what you're looking for, because of that sidecut and radius. This being ES, I'm sure there will be others who swear by them, rather than at them. I have a couple of pairs of 180cm Ispeed's, and I've skied my brothers new Rev Pro 85's {a very nice, and I think underrated ski}, as well as the newer Magnum. All great skis. Head makes a great product. My wife's a good skier, and she is completely sold on the new Head Joy series, which are featherweights. The Super Joy in a 163cm is her hard snow ski. No anti-Head bias. Just wanted to clarify that. 

 

Thanks for the last post, I think it might help with some other suggestions. I had no idea that you had 15 days on newer designed skis. I guess that you statement about being an old dog is right on the money! As I had said, I don't know anybody who's had that much time on good new skis who hasn't made that move, so I need to ponder this one. I'll think about this. Light, long, able to handle your size. Hmmm. 

 

One ski that comes to mind is an older leftover Stockli Stromrider XL. You can find them in a 194cm length. 75mm waist, 23M radius. Colorado Discount Skis has a NEW pair of 06-07 stock on Ebay, with Head PR 11 bindings { a minimum DIN of 3, BTW}, for $430. I bet if you called them, they'd make a better deal.Their description of what the ski is, is franky, IMO, way off base. I own a pair of these, and have owned two other pairs. It's not some "free ride" ski. It's not a powder ski. It was basically a slightly wider, slightly detuned laminate GS ski. A big guy ski. With that binding, it will be a fairly light ski, and it will be super stable. Just a thought.The binding is a an odd match….but sounds perfect for you. 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/06-07-Stockli-Stormrider-XL-Mid-Fat-Skis-194cm-w-Power-11-NEW-/350956903434

 

Not sure if I copied that link properly. Might be worth a look. 

post #20 of 27

If I were TQA, I'd get a new knee.  Knee replacement is getting pretty good and at 67, it wont likely need replacing in his lifetime.  Why limit yourself so much when you don't have to?  Are you putting it off until you are 80?  If you get in soon, you will probably be able to ski next winter.  I've seen a lot of skiers with one or both knees replaced that rip without pain.  If you do it now, you should be able to look forward to another 15-20 years on skis.  After getting that "equipment" in order, then look into the other gear like skis.

post #21 of 27
Now you know why I said free TQA. Go with newer equipment. You won't regret it.
post #22 of 27
Sold my 180 E-98's to a friend coming from a 190 something beta carve 10-20. We traded skis for a couple runs and he didn't want his Atomics back. smile.gif
post #23 of 27


I also thought about recommending the Rossi E98's. Or the new 100's although they are not as stiff as the 98's.  It sounds to me that they are the exact ski he is looking for. Hard to find in a demo however.

post #24 of 27

I have a pair of 180 E98s that I don't need anymore.  They are in good shape.  $350 w bindings.

post #25 of 27

TQA,

 

I am a little taller and a little lighter than you. Skied "old style" straight skis for a lot of years and then took some time off and then about 5 years ago came back to skiing and updated my equipment to modern skis. I still have and occasionally ski my 205 cm Elan comprex SL racing skis. They ski well using old style technique or even not so bad with new technique, and if you are interested in them contact me. They are in great shape for a 1990's ski. I can relate to where you are coming from about long skis. My knees are good, but the way a long ski bends in turns and the amount of ski edge in contact with the snow is different than modern skis. For a big guy, it can be better in some ways, in my opinion. I still have not found a modern ski than can hold my body weight on boiler plate like 205 cm's of steel edge. (my longest modern ski is 192 cm and I weigh 250 lbs).

 

The reason for my reply is to suggest you contact Ski Logik ski company. Google them.  They are a semi-custom ski boutique shop operating out of China. Don't be turned off initially by China, the owner used to make skis in Colorado and moved his whole family to China and built a small factory there. They make a complete line of skis and are becoming fairly main stream recently. I own two pairs and like them a lot. To the point, he will take a custom order and make you almost anything you want. The price is reasonable (under $1000) and you will be able to ski something close to what he makes you by demo'ing one of his current production skis. He makes narrower front side carvers and has been making skis all his life. I would put the quality of his skis up against almost any brand. I may be a solution to your problem.

 

 

Muleski, you can pencil me in for chapter 27 in your novel if you like   :D

 

Scott B.

post #26 of 27
Thread Starter 

Thanks Scott

 

That is an option I had not thought of and had no idea that such a company existed.

 

I have found a pr of Head GTO 200 s at a reasonable price and my gopher is checking the auction sites for the holy grail of an unused pair of Atomic Beta Carv 200s.

 

But a custom made pair with my own graphics Hmmmmmmm. Just what I need for posing down the greens at Alta.

post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

Muleski, you can pencil me in for chapter 27 in your novel if you like   :D

 

Scott B.

 

Safe to say that the writing on this topic has ended for this kid! Not a lot of reader or publisher interest!!

 

Good luck with the search, TQA, and with your knee. I'm sure that you're find a good solution. 

 

Time to enjoy the summer! 

 

MS

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