Originally Posted by bud heishman
Jamt, I would love to see a video of those turns! It would answer so many questions. If that video exists post it up! It would be a great conversation piece. In fact it would be great to contrast it with Jonathan Ballou, Mike Hafer, or Mike Rogan to see where any similarities or differences exist!
I have not seen any videos online. I have not searched for them either.
You see, nobody is saying "twisting the skis is required" it is definitely not required to turn the skis! Rotary skills include much more than pivoting the skis across the direction of travel. Rotary control skills are like edging skills and pressure control skills which need to be developed and honed to find optimum control over the skis path. In fact, to carve a good turn entry we must actually twist our feet opposite the direction we intend to go which causes our feet to tip the other way. Many years ago I started a thread on this exact biomechanical fact titled "Twist 'n Tip". Twisting the feet in the direction of a turn will negate carving, I agree!
Not much is required when you ski, but epic is full of threads discussing twisting the skis so at least a part of the community thinks it is a good idea to twist actively. I fully agree with the rest of what you say, and probably a lot of the debates are actually due to semantics and vocabulary. Yes, twisting the feet in one direction is negating carving, but not all people realize that. I usually show the following picture to illustrate:
My beef with brushing is, while it may begin with no rotary input, there is a rotary element which is not an active twisting but a passive rotation about a vertical axis evidenced by arriving in a countered position with the feet pointing a different direction than the shoulders. We can try to change the definitions, but the act is visible. Simply angulating the knees from the inside of one turn to the inside of another rotates the femurs which is part of the rotary skill. it is not all about pivoting the skis across the direction of travel.
This seems accurate and does not conflict with my view so I'm not sure I understand what your beef is. Just let my not also that like BTS I am not a representative of "you know what"
Question? Do brushing turns negate the ability to use anticipation release?
In my opinions no, but I'm sure that some purists would not agree. In my opinion it is totally fine to use rotary aspects in part of the turn. I am coming from a racing perspective.
In the new thread, we are trying to slow down and focus on some very basic understandings then move slowly to hopefully find our differences are much smaller than some would suggest. There are certainly more than one technique to turn our skis and it would seem obvious that for any given situation some methods are more appropriate and other situations require different options. Why limit our skill development which only limit our options? We all agree, over pivoting the skis at initiation is a very common issue with beginner and intermediate skiers and a detriment to carving. We do not all agree that it is PSIA's fault. It is likely a natural self preservation human instinct imbedded in the psyche causing skiers to throw them sideways at initiation rather than a technique intentionally taught by PSIA instructors.
I have very little knowledge of what PSIA teaches.
I believe the challenge is to change psyche of the defensive intent to include the GO intent. Rather than fight the concept, try to embrace it to find it's merits.
Where I see the primary intent difference between posters is one wants to gain speed control above the fall line while the other wants to GO. These two intents are very different but neither is wrong! They both have merit and good skiers should be able to switch their tactics to be able to accomplish both! There are certainly times I am in a steep narrow situation where I want to make as round of a turn as I can (my intent) and avoid hopping, pivoting in the air and setting my edges across the fall line. To do this I must skillfully finish my turns with my skis moving forward more than they are moving sideways (turning more than braking) so that I can steer or brush the top of the next turn, shaving some speed before the fall line. Sometimes I need to brake, but I separate that intent from the intent to turn, making a clear distinction in the tactics I choose.
We all have a speed limit where we lift off the gas pedal and step on the brakes. The challenge is to keep trying to extend that threshold. As for the beginner, I want to keep them in an environment where they can experience the joy of gravity's pull just like the joy we find sledding down a snowy hill or riding a roller coaster. Rather than teaching them braking, scraping, and fighting gravity, I want to teach them how to use gravity to their advantage. I try to use the analogy of throwing a child into the air then catching them on their descent is like starting a turn and finishing a turn. When we throw the child into the air they gasp with exhileration then upon being caught they giggle with joy and want to do it again. Beginners should learn to embrace and enjoy the exhilaration of turning the skis into the fall line and feeling the acceleration from the pull of gravity knowing that as they continue to turn their skis, gravity will help them slow down like the catch from the toss. This catch and release is the primal joy we get from skiing. It is sad that many skiers never really experience this joy unless they learn to ski the slow line fast.
I suppose you could classify it into two categories called "finishing your turns for speed control" and "speed control in the high C". However, In my opinions they are not mutually exclusive, they actually go hand in hand. If you don't finish your turns you are not traveling enough across the fall line in order to have any speed control in the high C. You cannot have one without the other.
Ron LeMaster wrote in "Ultimate Skier", when the ski's steering angle is greater than forty five degrees to the direction of travel the skier is braking more than turning. The smallest steering angle is closest to carving and any angle less than 45 degrees is turning more than braking while any angle greater than 45 is braking more than turning so then when the skis are at a 90 degree angle to our travel, we are braking with zero turning. The smaller the steering angle the faster we go around the TURN for which the line we choose to follow will determine our speed at exit.
Yes. I usually see it this way. You have a force parallel to the direction of travel, this regulates the speed. You have a force perpendicular to the direction of travel. This determines the turning radius. However, the turning radius is given by
so, if you slow down you reduce the radius. I think this is where the intuitive feeling may often be wrong. You may feel as though you turn more by increasing the the steering angle, but that is mostly true because you slow down, not because you increase the turning force (I said mostly instead of only because there are some exceptions)