or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › The non-intuitive things we do
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The non-intuitive things we do - Page 5

post #121 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Humans have more similarities than differences despite growing up and learning in vastly different environments.

If we all had to learn by experience that walking off a cliff doesn't work, there wouldn't be that many people around. Fear or lnowledge of falling is intuitive. Which is why most here seem to agree that letting oneself go downhill, in essence falling briefly, is non intuitive and most fight it. It represents danger and must be learned that it's actually easier and safer if one goes through it.


I disagree and have three kids and two grandkids that have all proven that wrong.  All smart and have done well but all would have crawled off a ledge it we let them.  It isn't until they fall a couple times and put two and 2 together that they learn this.

As far as us all not falling off of cliffs, I suppose it's because there are 1) parents to stop this and 2) not that many cliffs.
Is there any mammal that's self sufficient at birth?
post #122 of 134
^^^^I don't think so, but human babies are among the slowest, if not THE slowest, to "mature"...

zenny
post #123 of 134
Ok, well I guess there's a difference between innate fear and learned in infancy. Does it matter though? Once an infant gets the fear it stays no?
Quote:
Consistent with what mothers typically notice in their own homes, our early research has confirmed experimentally that most infants undergo a period following the acquisition of crawling when they do not avoid heights, typically going over the edge of a bed, changing table, and even the top of a staircase if someone is not there to protect the infant from falling.

Then, a few weeks later, the infant who so readily did not avoid heights now behaves as expected and shows fear of falling. The visual cliff apparatus in our lab captures what mothers have reported about a developmental shift from little or no fear of falling to intense avoidance of heights. So, our findings with the visual cliff reveal two important points:
The Visual Cliff and Fear of Heights-
http://babycenter.berkeley.edu/VisualCliff.htm

man-on-wire2.jpg
1973, Phillipe Petit at start of walk btween the WTC Towers. He spent 45 minutes on that wire crossing multiple times.
Quote:
"I am very human and full of little stupid fears on earth," Mr. Petit says. "I have problems with big dogs showing their teeth. And centipedes and tarantulas. But up there, I have no fear. And I have no fear, I feel, out of working on it, knowing my subject, not out of not wanting to know."

"That," he said with characteristic seriousness of purpose, "would be death in my profession." - Phillipe Petit
http://www.nysun.com/arts/up-there-i-have-no-fear-philippe-petit-on-man/82261/
post #124 of 134
Without prior knowledge seems to be the crux of the term. I wonder what that lack of knowledge means in the real world though. In ski teaching Teaching for Transfer is based on past experiences and I believe those experiences always play an important part in our learning. Some of those past experiences are positive and lead to quicker progress but others just might do the opposite and stand in the way of progress. Either way they influence how we act and think about skiing.
So for us to have no relevent prior knowledge seems more a reasonable definition as long as we understand it is our nature to try to apply some of our past experiences to that new endeavor.
Which raises the question about something being non-intuitive and what that would mean. If we use prior knowledge that certainly would be non-intuitive but is that what Trechik was going after, or was it more about negative transfer being an impediment to riding that silly bike?
post #125 of 134
Cognitive dissonance. No big deal. We adapt to the degree we need.. or not. With skiing, fear is the 600lb gorilla in the room with adult learners. All the things we need to do to ski well are counter intuitive to an adult beginner unless they've had some experience with sliding on slippery stuff: water skiing, skating.. Etc... And most skiers still move back and in... it's the intuitive braking reflex. Most of really great skiing is learned with a good deal of coaching... not unlike gymnastics or any other sport performed at the highest levels, and is highly counter intuitive.
post #126 of 134
I would say fear is often based on past failures, or fear of future failure. For example, Not wanting to move with the skis down the hill is actually mostly about wanting to avoid the bigger fear of not being able to stop once you start moving with the skis. So the key is to help them seperate that fear of not stopping from the act of moving with the skis.
post #127 of 134
That is why I hesitate to say lean down the hill and I talk more about moving with the skis. When asked about not being able to stop, I address that with a j turn activity. The ten feet they spend in the fall line before turning to a stop usually demonstrates that fear of going and not being able to stop issue we see between turns is irrational.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/8/15 at 4:01pm
post #128 of 134
Ask anyone who hasn't learned to sprint backward and see what they do, fear or not. smile.gif Chances are they'll lean back.
post #129 of 134
The point here is fear isn't a constant nor is intuitiveness. Experience replaces both.
post #130 of 134

At my work, just for fun, I got to run a simulator programmed correctly for an American 688 class nuclear attack submarine.

 

All three tries on the diving planes yoke had the boat dive to the bottom and crash.  :-(

The slack and delay due to momentum was long.

post #131 of 134

I originally posted this in the pole straps thread but @segbrown suggested it might belong here as well. 

 

Quote:
Knowing how to fall helps reduce injuries of all kinds. Overcoming the instinct to brace with your arms is one of the first things you ought to learn to have a 'good' fall. It applies to so many sports where you fall like soccer, football, baseball and biking. If you embrace yourself by pulling your arms in rather than bracing yourself, you can avoid a lot of nasty injury such as skier's thumb, shoulder separations and broken bones.

 

I guess that for me it is intuitive as I have been falling for so long. 

 

I haven't read this thread so I apologize for any overlap with the following...

 

How about sailing with a tiller? As you likely haven't experienced a device like it anywhere else in life, it is usually a brand new sensation and takes a bit of getting used to. For those that don't know, to turn left in a sailboat with a tiller, you push the tiller to the right.

 

Brining it back to skiing it is like how a turn to the left is known as a right footed turn since in going left you need to be focused on a strong right leg.

post #132 of 134
I avoided commenting on the falling thread because I see so too many variables to draw any meaninful conclusions but the advice to embrace yourself just moves the risk to the shoulder and specifically the rotator cuff. Quarterbacks who get tackled and have their arms down at their sides are a prime example of why the hug yourself advice is more dangerous than reaching but not rigidly holding the arm in place. In short there is no one safe way to fall. Perhaps further study is in order though. I googled most frequent ski injuries and thought I would share what came up.

Knee sprains and ligament injuries far outweighs all other ski related injuries while forearm and hand injuries ranked last by a very wide margin.
As an interesting side note, Equipment improvements have lessened the fracture rates but thumb and hand injuries have remained relatively unchanged since the early seventies. Again further studied are probably in order but with such a low frequency rate ski safety efforts are understandably focused on the knee first.

As far as the "go with it" advice about knee and shoulder injuries it is valuable and part of every ski school and patrol training program but I find it interesting that the straight legged landing mechanism of injury is often overlooked. Women's basketball coaches long ago adopted the mantra to land with the knees slightly bent to lessen the possibility of ACL injury.
When it comes to pole strap usage, I use Leki releasable triggers and only advise clients to remove their straps while treeskiing or skiing a slope that might slide.
Just sayin...
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/11/15 at 12:30pm
post #133 of 134
I almost forgot, The instinctive reaction of reaching out to break a fall may seem wrong but it is much the same as how we react to cold. The distal parts of the body are sacrificed to save the core. Could it be we are hardwired to break our fall by reaching out with the closest limb? I believe it is much like when touching a hot pan, we instinctively pull the limb back out of danger without any thought. Chad is probably better equipped to explain this sort of stuff but I have shared what I suspect about the subject of falling and our reaction to that fall.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 6/11/15 at 4:35pm
post #134 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

I almost forgot, The instinctive reaction of reaching out to break a fall may seem wrong but it is much the same as how we react to cold. The distal parts of the body are sacrificed to save the core. Could it be we are hardwired to break our fall by reaching out with the closest limb? I believe it is much like when touching a hot pan, we instinctively pull the limb back out of danger without any thought. Chad is probably better equipped to explain this sort of stuff but I have shared what I suspect about the subject of falling and our reaction to that fall.

 

I just posted this on another thread having a similar discussion. I agree that using arms in certain types of falls, forward diving falls specifically, is a natural instinct for the very reasons you mention such as protecting the head, but also that you are not necessarily sacrificing your arms as long as they are kept bent. Without your arms, total impact goes straight to the upper body and very often, straight to the head. Head injuries are far more devastating than just about anything else survivable. While many traumatic brain injuries may not kill you, it can certainly take your life away. With a sprained thumb, you're just going to

have to lay off Mario Brothers for a month.

 

. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › The non-intuitive things we do