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Low Carb and high exertion exercise

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I have had difficulty finding any information on a Low Carb diet with either high exertion exercise or even endurance exercising.

Does anyone have any anectdotal info or links?

All the athletic drinks, bars and gels appear to be used by athletes non doing Low-CArb.

So, what would work to accomplish the same goals during exercise with Low CArb foods? IS there a way for the Low CArb person to obtain the same short term benefits of eating Low CArb food during exercise?


TIA
-guy
post #2 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by GuyS:
I have had difficulty finding any information on a Low Carb diet with either high exertion exercise or even endurance exercising.

D
From what I have read, and talked to Ultra-long distance 40 miles plus runners (two, one young, one world champion veteran), one body builder (succesful) regarding nutrition, a lower carb diet is what they follow.

The release of HGH after excercise can be inhibited if the levels of carbs are too high promoting the excessive and rapid release of insulin or where the insulin spiking is present, such as people suscetible to hypoglycaemia.

For the 75% of people (apparently genetically) not well tolerant of high levels of carbs it is considered useful to keep the ratio of protein to carbs round about 40/60 or 50/50 i.e. for 7g/15g or 7g/10g. (these are similar levels to Zone and maintenance levels on Atkins). 25% of people have no benefit.

This replenishing should be done within 20 minutes of finishing excercise or steadily, roughly every 20 minutes, (diluted with fair amounts of water) during prolonged exercise.

There are other issues of replenishing muscle glycogen stores and this information can be seen as counterproductive to those aims. But, if one is running on a low carb routine anyway, should not be an issue.

Low carb diets and exercise have not been as successful in explosive, high energy requirement sports. Some loss of performance is reported by shorter distance runners.

You would be wise to know your daily essential building material (protein, minerals, vitamins and EFAs) requirements and also your lean body mass and exercise level to roughly calculate your protein needs.

Rough guide: lean body mass in lbs (measure fat percentage and subtract fat from total weight) times 1g times exercise factor is the total protein required for build, rebuild and repair.
Exercise factor, 0.5 couch potato, 1.0 Olympic athlete, 0.7 normal sportsman, 0.8 keen sportsman.

Energy requirements on top are provided by matching carbs to protein as above and using mono-unsaturated fat sources to maintain weight.

After exercise I presume you would think of a snack 7g protein bar with 10g of carb, low carb enough. Balance bars and similar fit the bill.

Clif bars aren't bad either.
That's the anecdotal stuff. Here's a link which discusses this approach with a negative text but 'we don't know yet' conclusion
http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2...b/FactZone.asp

Another site with more up to date long-term research results (the scandanavian study where people had unrestricted access to a food supermarket)

http://www.ez-weightloss.com/ez-weig...ezonediet.html

I presume, Guy, that you are looking to exercise whilst maintaining a low carb diet to lose weight. The two are generally incompatible but there is a lot of research available on the net. The bodyopus body builders diet is one you might look at for information on your request.
The ketongenic diet being researched as a treatment for epilepsy in children also has long-term studies.

[ March 11, 2004, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Nettie ]
post #3 of 22
If your interested in endurance- TRAIN. Don't worry about your diet, things will fall into place and, if you have even an ounce of intellegence you will figure out what works best.

Don't waste your time listening to "wannabes" espousing one diet or training regimen over another.

When I was training seriously (running 3000 miles and cycling 1000-2000 miles annually) I couldn't get enough carbohydrates. I guess that my diet was probably 60% carbohydrate, 30-35% fat, with a little protein mixed in. Rebuilding muscle tissue is energy-demanding and so you're better off with high carbohydrate intake following excercise than eating lots of protein. Even after a 30-45 mile training run, I'd rather have a bagel than a burger. Every once in a while I did crave meat. I also inhaled french fries when those were around, probably the salt I guess.

You can probably train yourself to do well on any diet- even Atkins and Zone, both of which are utter bull****, IMHO and for reasons not worth going into here. Any reason why you're interested in going low carbohydrate? Just something you may want to explore?
post #4 of 22
ditto on Rattus.

when i ran seriously in my 20's and rode through my early 30's, all i was concerened with was getting fuel. went through megatonnage of complex carbs just to keep glycogen storage where it needed to be. avoided candy bars, potato chips, all that junk. pounded much rice, beans, potatoes, quality breads, power bars, etc., and found that when the body needed protein, i ate it. when you begin to train and then really stay with it, your body will let you know.
you will NOT be able to rack up big-time mileage in anything (assuming you are setting out to) living on a mostly-protein diet.
post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by BadRat:
even Atkins and Zone, both of which are utter bull****, IMHO
Notwithstanding the marketing hype of diets which parallels the PMTS PSIA discussions quite well, the latest, scandinavan, long-term study on food intake sheds a little light on why the Zone, Atkins and other low and lower carb regimes work for fat (not weight loss which is often undesirable muscle and fat loss)

The study allowed people to choose whatever food they wanted as long as all of came from the free supermarket environment where instead of prices the macro nutrient content of food was recorded. One of the two groups was trying to eat a higher protein diet and the other a lower fat. The end result was that over a long period the people eating the higher protein diet consumed less calories.
The indications are, that when the body gets the nutrients it needs it stops craving food or that protein inhibits the appetite. The former is the most favoured.

Nothing complicated.

Back to basics, eat foods with high micro-nutrient content and avoid empty processed foods where possible. In the last 40 years even the un-processed fruits and vegetables have suffered a significant reduction in the mineral content, sometimes in the order of 40%

Enough protein in the diet is essential as 8 amino acids cannot be made by the body (two more for kids and another for premature babies), along with the essential vitamins, minerals and two essential fatty acids (of which fish oil is NOT one, it is from further down the chain).
Most athletic training regimes think that the Zone has too little protein for athletes by lean body mass.
Cycling requires a high calorrific environment but is less demanding of protein as bulky muscles are not the main aim whereas aerobic capacity is.

At high levels all diets are sports AND athlete specific.

The Zone diet is good for the main problem it addresses, losing weight. It provides a framework where a reduced calorie diet is acceptable to both the mind and the body. Food cravings are reduced. Most studies indicate that reducing our calorie intake will promote longer lifespan if the nutrition needed to support the body is still provided.

If you exercise you need more calories, just be aware where they come from.
post #6 of 22
I've got to pipe in here...

The Zone diet isn't a low carb diet. 40% of your caloric intake is carbs ...30% protien and 30% fat.

It was formulated for the US Olympic swim team for the Sarajevo Olympics by Dr. Barry Sears. They took home an unprecedented number of metals to which the team attributed to the zone diet and training with a heart rate monitor. The two were formulated hand in hand by Sears.

Did you know that the zone diet was originally formulated for high intensity athletics ...mainly swimming and cycling? You'll find a lot of zonies who are cyclists. I gotta say, it works very well to maintain carbo stores and curb the highs and lows of consuming too many simple carbs.

Diet doesn't always mean weight loss for lazy slobs.
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by BadRat:
If your interested in endurance- TRAIN. Don't worry about your diet, things will fall into place and, if you have even an ounce of intellegence you will figure out what works best.
I know cyclists who spend years trying to nail their on-the-bike eating regimen. It ain't easy to learn what works and what won't. BadRat, I think you're the exception and not the rule.

Furthermore, a low carb diet coupled with a high endurance activity ain't gonna jive ...bottom line.
Even if you've done a great job teaching your body to burn fat while below your aerobic heart rate, you'll still burn just carbo stores when you hit the aerobic heart rate level and above. At least that's what I've learned.
post #8 of 22
excellent response, Nettie. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by PinHed:
I've got to pipe in here...

The Zone diet isn't a low carb diet.
Never said it was but it is lower than most.
It is also not high protein but it is higher than most. In fact it is almost exactly the same food in the same proportions as my mum and her mum served up for years, when the world was slimmer.

The Stanford swim team dispute a lot of Dr.Sears claims.
I like it but scientifically many of his claims are currently unsubstantiated. There is a lot of studies regarding competitive cyclists and it is not now considered the optimum diet. Have a look over the net and look at the sports research.
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by PinHed:
excellent response, Nettie. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
Thank you. It is very hard to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially when there are large amounts of money, egos, industries and jobs involved.
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
WOW - thank you everyone for the great responses. I apologize for my delayed return to the thread!

First, I am not a "weight loss lazy slob" but did have some extra poundage that I have been successful losing with Atkins (22lbs). I have believe it or not, overall, enjoyed the low carb diet as it really has reduced my cravings (big chocoholic), and provided me much more even energy during the day (non exercise). Caffeine never crosses my mind. I have gotten my weight down to 188lbs and am 5’10” with 85% LBM (lean body mass). I tend to have quite a muscular upper body from years of recreational weight lifting (350lb bench press, 225lb shoulder press and lots of back work although I never used any supplements but ate a ton.

My exercise level is not what it used to be (before kids). Last summer I jogged about 16 miles a week. On the longer 5 mile jogs (45-50min) some days would be fine others simply felt like I couldn't finish for unexplainable reasons (IE: weather wasn't super hot or humid). I haven’t been to the gym hitting the weights for a few years for serious lifting.

This thread has begun to answer my MAIN QUESTION since beginning the low-carb diet and maintenance which I am now in. So, let’s assume I am in Ketosis and burning fat for anerobic energy and therefore have supposedly little glycogen stores for aerobic energy. My body must still burn fat for All energy right? Pinhead asserts that I'll need carbs when doing aerobic exercise which had me confused? My understanding is that if there is fat to burn (which I still have 15%) Ketosis will work to provide the energy.

My confusion all along has been why does my endurance suffer if in Ketolysis and I still have enough fat for the activity - Answer is: too much acid build up but you'll have the energy. I got this answer indirectly from my physician wife to whom I was finally able to ask the proper questions of with the help of this thread (I asked why glycolosys enables aerobic endurance but not Ketolysis). The explanation I now have is that excess acid build up in the body (ketonic acid and lactic acid) in turn triggers your body to stop the endurance activity. Does this now seem like a proper understanding???

SO, with my above explanation of my understanding, what supplement do I eat to help with the longer endurance exercise while on a low-carb diet Without breaking the Ketosis of the low-carb diet once exercise is finished??

I REALLY appreciate everyone’s time and responses. I have been looking for this info since the summer. My breakthrough here was connecting two independent pieces of info from Pinhead and my wife (who I have finally been able to ask the right question of differences between glycolysis and ketogenesis energy pathways used for aerobic exercise).

Thanks again.
(not the lazy slob
-Guy
post #12 of 22
Guy,
a website yo might like to look at. I just perused it but it seems pertinant to what you are looking for.
http://low-carb.org/
post #13 of 22
Quote:
This thread has begun to answer my MAIN QUESTION since beginning the low-carb diet and maintenance which I am now in. So, let’s assume I am in Ketosis and burning fat for anerobic energy and therefore have supposedly little glycogen stores for aerobic energy. My body must still burn fat for All energy right? Pinhead asserts that I'll need carbs when doing aerobic exercise which had me confused? My understanding is that if there is fat to burn (which I still have 15%) Ketosis will work to provide the energy.

My confusion all along has been why does my endurance suffer if in Ketolysis and I still have enough fat for the activity - Answer is: too much acid build up but you'll have the energy. I got this answer indirectly from my physician wife to whom I was finally able to ask the proper questions of with the help of this thread (I asked why glycolosys enables aerobic endurance but not Ketolysis). The explanation I now have is that excess acid build up in the body (ketonic acid and lactic acid) in turn triggers your body to stop the endurance activity. Does this now seem like a proper understanding???
No.

Your muscles only use glycogen for energy. Fat is burned, but that is not the primary source of fuel. Carbs are also required for proper brain function. It has been suggested that 60 gms/day of carbs is a minimum requirement for proper brain function..... but I digress.

In ketosis, for the muscles to obtain fuel, a process called gluconeogenesis occurs, which literally means "new way to create glycogen". The body makes this from protein. So, you need to overeat protein, to create the glycogen used as fuel. In short, an expensive way to get carbs. If you don't eat enough protein, it will scavenge your own lean tissue for it -- not what you want... The solution is to eat carbs -- more on that later....

Ketosis is not the important thing. There are several things quite wrong with this type of diet. I've tried it twice, with all the proper suplements: 1.5 gms/day salt, 1.0 grams/day potassium, 600 mg magnesium, 50 mg zinc, a 1-a day on top of that. calcium supplements, 2 TBSP EFAs as well as Vitamin E. There are more, but I cannot recall all right now.... don't do it without them! It is a good diet due to it's ability to blunt hunger, and to maintain body mass, but really, it best targets body builders, that are cutting for competitions -- they save their hard earned muscles, and lose mostly fat -- not all fat, but mostly.

The main problem with the ketogenic diet is that it is dehydrating by nature. So, you will lose many electrolytes/minerals on it. That's why the intense supplementation. Dehydration is bad, as you know, and by itself, it will reduce athletic performance.

Worse, a long duration of dehydration will cause the connective tissues/cartilege and disks in your back to also become dehydrated. Consequently, explosive forms of exercise should be avoided -- eg. no explosive squats in the weight room. And don't go below parallel: there is too much pressure on the back of the meniscus when really low -- remember the meniscus will also be less resilient as it too will become dehydrated.

You can't just drink more water, because the glycogen to which the water binds is missing. Drinking more water to rehydrate is like trying to fill a collander.

The other problem is that carbs are required for repairs of muscle tissue. So no carbs is not at all that good.

Even the main proponent of the ketogenic diet ( one Lyle MacDonald ) claims ketosis is not the important thing.

I tried "The ultimate diet Version 2.0" with much better performance results. The details are on . It does use low carb eating, but it alternates with carbful eating.

In short, you eat 3.5 days no carb, all supplements as above. Mon-Thursday lunch. 1 gm protein per pound of bodyweight. The goal is starvation avoidance, which hits at about 4 days...

eg. I need 3000 cals/day maint. I ate 1500 cals mon-wed, and 750 until thursday lunch. MON + Wed were weight room days, high reps, low weights, many sets. ( I'm 44 so I just did 3 sets of 15 of everything. Young guys can go up to 12 sets of 15) mon-wed lunch is were you lose the weight.

Thursday dinner for me was 1 pound of pasta. It is the start of the carb load, in preparation for Saturdays heavy weight day 3 sets of 5. ( I did it on Friday instead -- it was ok. ) You need to drink a lot to replace the lost water and carb load to restore lost energy. I was losing 7 pounds of water from monday to thursday afternoon.

Friday through Sunday, eat at maintenance levels, but still 1 gm protein/pound. This is so you can restore any lost muscle tissue. And make sure you take 800 mg vitamin e each and every day, as well as calcium and efas.

I was losing 1.8 pounds/week on average, with no loss of strength. Skiing on the weekends was at full capacity. It's also much better socially, because you can eat pretty much the same as everyone else on the weekends.

Like beer -- Cheers!
post #14 of 22
Nice post, BigE.
It puts a lot of detail onto what I knew about but knew about only vaguely.
post #15 of 22
I have to mention one thing about ketosis to GuyS. I believe that you are not reaching ketosis if you eat even minute amounts of carbs. To get into ketosis (where the body uses fat for energy) you need to eat fat (60%) and protein (40%) and near zero carbs. Even 10-20 grams of carbs will probably kill the process.

Once you achieve ketosis the body will adapt to the idea of using fat for energy (for moderate aerobic activity).

But BigE really gave you the right solution. The Ultimate Diet (which every serious bodybuilder probably tried) cycles low-high carb periods in a very sensible way. The only reservation I have regarding BigE's post is the weight training. You need to do HIT (high intensity training) on Mon-Tues and then super high reps before the carb up period. This eliminates the last carbs from the muscles and allows them to absorb the maximum carbs on the carb loading days. Of course, this is from a bodybuilding perspective. Either way, this is not a diet for endurance training.

Unlike BadRat, I do belive that the Zone/Atkins diets are on the right track. We eat way too much carbs and lowering our carb intake (to reasonable levels) makes good sense. The problem is that we call it a "diet" when it should be a life style. But then I am as guilty as the next person of being in love with carbs and sweets.
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks BigE.
So how is Protein stored in the body for the ketongenic diets fuel for muscles? Your point about hydration seems to possible point to another explanation for my jogging fatigue.?

Also, can you clarify your diet description?
1500 cal/day M-F or total?
What happens Thursday?

So the burning of fat is used for what energy if Muscle only burns glycogens from carbs or proteins? YOu confused me (not too hard).

Lastly, for when I am in ketosis, what do you suggest I do to supplement to improve my Aerobic exercise endurance??? This was my original question. I don't want to "break" the ketosis for the rest the day or the next day if I don't exercise. Similarly, were you in agreement that Ketosis is good for the anerobic lifting days leaving you energy or is this too dependent on hydration (i know it is) And protein available (BOth assuming very little glycogen store).

THanks again,
guy
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by GuyS:
Thanks BigE.
So how is Protein stored in the body for the ketongenic diets fuel for muscles? Your point about hydration seems to possible point to another explanation for my jogging fatigue.?

Also, can you clarify your diet description?
1500 cal/day M-F or total?
What happens Thursday?

So the burning of fat is used for what energy if Muscle only burns glycogens from carbs or proteins? YOu confused me (not too hard).

Lastly, for when I am in ketosis, what do you suggest I do to supplement to improve my Aerobic exercise endurance??? This was my original question. I don't want to "break" the ketosis for the rest the day or the next day if I don't exercise. Similarly, were you in agreement that Ketosis is good for the anerobic lifting days leaving you energy or is this too dependent on hydration (i know it is) And protein available (BOth assuming very little glycogen store).

THanks again,
guy
Protein is stored as muscle tissue.

Hydration will increase the fatigue. The fatigue you feel is due to your inability to provide enough fuel to continue the exercise -- your simply out of gas.

Keto diets are 3 kinds:

1) Standard Ketogenic Diet - SKD
2) Cyclical Ketogenic Diet - CKD
3) Targetted Ketogenic Diet - TKD

SKD's are the worst for athletic performance -- you simply run out of glycogen to burn after a few days, and your performance sucks. Watch as your ability to lift weights drops. I would drop 10% of the weight by the end of the first week, and thereafter be unable to finish sets without dropping even more weight.

I needed to do a CKD -- which uses Carb Re-feeds of 48 hours duration each weekend. Without them, I could not lift at all. With them, I could barely do Friday's workout.

The ultimate diet v 2.0 is a CKD. Partial rehydration takes place over the weekend -- it really takes a minimum of 4 days to rehydrate. A refeed would consist of overeating by about 25% of maintenance calories each day. No fat and carb at the same time -- ever.

In a TKD, the athlete will consume carbs just before and just after the workout. Say 50 grams of maltodextrin or pure glucose. Not fructose - fruit sugar -- it does not refill muscle glycogen.

My Diet cf. 1500 cals M-W -- diet phase
3000 cals Th-Sun -- maint phase

But, Thursday is split, 750 cals Keto BF and lunch. Dinner was 450 grams pasta and the remainder meat and candy.

Fat is used in the energy usage cycle. The body can can only use fat to supply a max of 20% of the energy it will burn. This happens at the start of the diet phase. After 4 days, that drops to 4%. The remainder comes from muscle tissue and stored glycogen. Once you run out of stored glycogen, you burn muscle to fuel muscle.

Your body adapts to starvation very well -- you do not need muscle to survive, you need fat. So, it preferentially burns muscle on a severe long term diet. And when that starts to happen, you metabolism shuts down to conserver energy. You can tell when you are in starvation mode by taking you temperature when you wake up in the morning. Sub-normal temps mean low metabolism -- low energy use.

It's the severity of the diet, the number of calories you cut, that causes starvation mode. Usually, the combo of diet and exercise cannot exceed 1000 calories per day before rapid onset of starvation mode. More than 1000 cals/day means starvation mode in about 4 days. That's why this diet stops starving you at 3.5 days. In starvation mode, energy is preferentially stored as fat -- it takes some effort to reset the bodies safety mechanism. That's where the pasta refeed comes into play -- to stop that plateau from happening.

This is the key element of any good diet: If the body thinks that there is enough energy available, it will make up the rest from stored fat.

To answer your question, there is no supplement available to keep you in ketosis, and supply glycogen. Only Carbs will do this. Even overeating protein can kick you out of ketosis.

You can try 50 grams of carbs before running. That will help with the fatigue. Will you burn the 200 calories? Certainly. I used to do that before hockey games while on my CKD.

Ketosis is no good for any exercise whatsoever, anaerobic or not. I needed to use the CKD to ensure that I could lift on my MWF schedule. I still hurt myself -- mainly meniscus and tendons.

Ketosis does not promote tissue recovery -- it's a major hinderance. If you are injured, go off the diet immediately. Carbs are necessary to promote healing.

Ketosis is not a goal. Fat loss is the goal. Weight loss happens when your caloric intake is less than your requirements, and your metabolism is functioning properly.

A CKD is the best of the three, especially if you include carbs before and after each workout, aerobic or not... Say 50 gms before and 25 after for healing. Remember, ketosis is not important.

Hope this helps.
post #18 of 22
[quote]Originally posted by BigE:
Quote:
Your muscles only use glycogen for energy. Fat is burned, but that is not the primary source of fuel. Carbs are also required for proper brain function. It has been suggested that 60 gms/day of carbs is a minimum requirement for proper brain function..... but I digress.

In ketosis, for the muscles to obtain fuel, a process called gluconeogenesis occurs, which literally means "new way to create glycogen". The body makes this from protein. So, you need to overeat protein, to create the glycogen used as fuel. In short, an expensive way to get carbs. If you don't eat enough protein, it will scavenge your own lean tissue for it -- not what you want... The solution is to eat carbs -- more on that later....
Big E
Where does the Krebs cycle (which requires more H2O catalyst if it is using fats not carbs) fit in with muscle energy provision?

I thought that the ATP produced was the energy carrier produced by phosphagens, anaerobic glycolysis, or oxidative metabolism (carbs or fats).
Protein burning is only a minor factor with the energy output of fat being of the order of 18 times less than carbs hence the onset of early fatigue when muscle glycogen is depleted.


Guy

Some basic info on ketosis

"On July 7, 2002, the New York Times published "What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?" written by Gary Taubes.

I quote the article: " 'Doctors are scared of ketosis,' says Richard Veech, an N.I.H. [National Institutes of Health]researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel Laureate Hans Krebs. ''They're always worried about diabetic ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state."

"Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene. We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently live off that fat when necessary. Rather than being poison, which is how the press often refers to ketones, they make the body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for the brain. Veech calls ketones ''magic'' and has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar." You can read the full article at www.nyt.com.

Being in ketosis means your body has burned a large amount of fat in response to the fact that it didn't have sufficient glucose available for energy needs. Under everyday conditions, the carbohydrates you eat are converted to glucose, which is the body's primary source of energy. Whenever your intake of carbohydrates is limited to a certain range, for a long enough period of time, you'll reach a point where your body draws on its alternate energy system, fat stores, for fuel.

This condition called dietary ketosis, means your body burns fat and turns it into a source of fuel called ketones. Ketones are produced whenever body fat is burned. When you burn a larger amount of fat than is immediately needed for energy, the excess ketones are discarded in the urine.

Dietary ketosis is among the most maligned and misunderstood concepts in nutrition because it is often confused with ketoacidosis, which is a life-threatening condition most often associated with uncontrolled insulin-deficient Type 1 diabetes. In the Type 1 diabetic, the absence of insulin leads to a toxic build-up of blood glucose and an extreme break-down of fat and muscle tissue. This condition doesn't occur in individuals who have even a small amount of insulin, whether from natural production or artificially administered.

Dietary ketosis, however, is a natural adjustment to the body's reduced intake of carbohydrates as the body shifts its primary source of energy from carbohydrates to stored fat. The presence of insulin keeps ketone production in check so that a mild, beneficial ketosis is achieved. Blood glucose levels are stabilized within a normal range and there is no break-down of healthy muscle tissue.

The most sensitive tests of ketosis ("NMR" and "blood ketone level") show that everyone is in some degree of ketosis every day, particularly after not eating overnight and after exercising. Ketosis is the body's survival system. It is not an abnormality nor does it present any medical danger, except to a Type I insulin-dependent diabetic. The body functions naturally and effectively while in a state of dietary ketosis.

Some of the benefits many people experience while in a state of dietary ketosis for intentional weight loss may include rapid weight loss, decreased hunger and cravings, improved mood, increased energy and, as long as protein intake is adequate, protection of lean muscle mass."
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 
More info...

BigE - it certainly sounds like you have found what works best for you.

My main concern all along has been when in maintenance stage of low-carb diet, should I be worried about endurance (aerobic), and performance (anaerobic) exercising. Anecdotally, last summer when in slow-loss mode, some days I really ran out of steam inexplicably on my jogs.

At this point, I don't think I contribute it to the low-carb diet anymore (as I did when I began this thread). I now really think the major issue was hydration with maybe some acidosis.

Anyway, I have found several articles that are contrary to your postings here for a SKD (standard ketonic diet) and posted the links below. To summarize the articles, they all sustain that for either aerobic or anaerobic exercise, a person who has been established (say 1 week) in a ketonic diet and past transition stages (during which both endurance and performance will suffer), will burn fat to fuel muscle needs during either type of exercise.
Hence I answer my original question.. supplement low-carb diet with additional low-carb food and water.

links:
http://franmccullough.com/lowcarb/eades.php
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/DietFfitness.htm
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-936258.html
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-376754.html
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-902958.html

By never sustaining ketosis in a low-carb diet, atheletes must replenish glycogin (as you say):
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-936258.html
http://www9.netrition.com/cgi/article_display.cgi?magazine_id=RIP&issue_number=7 &article_id=7
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by GuyS:
More info...

BigE - it certainly sounds like you have found what works best for you.

My main concern all along has been when in maintenance stage of low-carb diet, should I be worried about endurance (aerobic), and performance (anaerobic) exercising. Anecdotally, last summer when in slow-loss mode, some days I really ran out of steam inexplicably on my jogs.

At this point, I don't think I contribute it to the low-carb diet anymore (as I did when I began this thread). I now really think the major issue was hydration with maybe some acidosis.

Anyway, I have found several articles that are contrary to your postings here for a SKD (standard ketonic diet) and posted the links below. To summarize the articles, they all sustain that for either aerobic or anaerobic exercise, a person who has been established (say 1 week) in a ketonic diet and past transition stages (during which both endurance and performance will suffer), will burn fat to fuel muscle needs during either type of exercise.
Hence I answer my original question.. supplement low-carb diet with additional low-carb food and water.

links:
http://franmccullough.com/lowcarb/eades.php
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/DietFfitness.htm
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-936258.html
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-376754.html
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-902958.html

By never sustaining ketosis in a low-carb diet, atheletes must replenish glycogin (as you say):
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-936258.html
http://www9.netrition.com/cgi/article_display.cgi?magazine_id=RIP&issue_number=7 &article_id=7
The text I used was "The ketogenic Diet" by Lyle MacDonald. It is a very scholarly book. There is a bulletin board available at www.bodyrecomposition.com where he posts, and I think you can get an e-copy there. He was once the most major proponent of ketosis, but has changed his opinion on the matter.

Another mailing list can be jopined at: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/lowcarb-list.html

An SKD will lose the most lean tissue of all of these types of diet.


As far as your conclusion that the SKD is not responsible, I'll quote the summary of this article http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-936258.html :

"The researchers concluded that a low-carbohydrate diet is detrimental to anaerobic work capacity, possibly because of reduced stores of glycogen in the muscles and decreased rate of glycolysis"


Also in http://www9.netrition.com/cgi/article_display.cgi?magazine_id=RIP&issue_number=7 &article_id=7

There are references to muscles using protien as fuel once glycogen stores are suficiently reduced. Consider these two quotes:

"A flat or stringy looking muscle would represent about a 70% decrease in your overall cell volume (glycogen at 40 mmol/kg). At this level workout, performance is largely impaired and protein can become an important fuel source during exercise."

In other words, you'll burn your own lean tissue.

And :

"I have also discussed this topic with Lyle McDonald, the author of “The Ketogenic Diet” which is an excellent reference tool for athletes on low carb diets. He has devised a simple option for low carb dieters who train with weights called Targeted Ketogenic Dieting or TKD. Basically his work validates the fact that carbs taken around 30-60 minutes before or immediately after exercise will not lessen the fat burning effects of the diet. I suggest you try it because not only it makes good sense scientifically but also your workouts will be much more intense."

"...much more intense", meaning there's gas in the tank. This has nothing to do with hydration whatsoever. You are blaming the wrong cause for your fatigue -- it's simly a lack of glycogen.

Muscle glycogen is the only fuel. If you keto diet you won't have any. Fat cannot convert to glycogen. That is not possible -- there is no such chemical pathway.

Also regarding your thoughts on acidosis. If keto-acidosis was really happening to you, you'd be in the hospital close to death. It's a life threatening condition.

I suspect the conclusions of this study, as the sample size is too small to be significant. They also did not maintain the level of protein for each individual. Nor do they provide gms/lb of nutrient for each persons bodyweight: http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-902958.html

This study only mentions the quantity of fat, not protein or carbs:
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-376754.html

I don't have the time to address the other stuff...

Bottom line: fatigue == no gas.
post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks Big E.
YOur suggestion for some carb before exercise and combined with your assertion that it does not affect the fat burning affects of the Keto diet sounds like a good plan.

Realize that the quotes you posted from the contrary article, never established the level of the keto diet.

the other links supposedly found no detremental performance if sufficiently in keto and no glycogen stores. THey don't focus on the protein because the assert the body is producing muscle engergy by burning body and dietary fat. Why do you not agree with this?

When I get the chance, I definitely do some reading on Lysle.

thanks,
guy
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by GuyS:
Thanks Big E.
YOur suggestion for some carb before exercise and combined with your assertion that it does not affect the fat burning affects of the Keto diet sounds like a good plan.


the other links supposedly found no detremental performance if sufficiently in keto and no glycogen stores. THey don't focus on the protein because the assert the body is producing muscle engergy by burning body and dietary fat. Why do you not agree with this?

When I get the chance, I definitely do some reading on Lysle.

thanks,
guy
Because it's only true for long slow exertions. By that, I mean under 65% max VO2 -- which for most of us will be when we exercise below 65% of our max heartrate.

Above 70%, glycogen MUST be used.

Since most of us don't have the time to sit on a stationary bike for an hour -- which is a good estimate of the time it would take to burn 450 cals at 65% VO2 max -- we workout harder, and thus need glycogen. 450 cals/workout has been suggested as the least amount of work that will contribute to fat loss....

There is no fat to glycogen pathway. Fat is oxidized and the energy from the released free fatty acids is used. This energy is not the primary source for heavy exertion. Which is why people tend to conk out in ketosis -- they don't workout slow enough to avoid needing glycogen.

Good Luck!
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