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Understanding natural tip lead - Page 8

post #211 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Razie, That progression was by Zenny's request, so it needed to be at the level I described. From that embryonic beginning comes a student's understanding of proper upper and lower body participation. As Chad so accurately identified simultaneous movement at the feet and in the torso is the key to that release. If as you suggest we did a sequential foot first release, the rest of the body would be late to the party. That does not mean a strong focus on how we use our feet is incongruent with the simultaneous use of the rest of the body though.

At a much higher level a white pass sideslip using that same foot only, foot and knee, and finally a whole body participation progression will reveal the problems with the foot first idea.
From a practical standpoint I have used this sort of progression for years and I have to say roughly half of my level eight and nine students struggle to perform this simple release because they fail to allow the upper body to flow into the new turn as they release the edge platfom.

 

Last try.  This is a serious question Jasp.  

 

You are a trainer of instructors.  When you lead a training group through this White Pass progression and some fail to do a White Pass adequately during the session, do you send them out to work on it on their own, telling them to work on it until they successfully can move the upper body over the skis?  If they don't eventually succeed over time, do you ascribe that failure to "laziness" or lack of commitment to change?  

 

Or do you work with them in that lesson or maybe later, more privately, to help guide them towards success?  I'm thinking that if you do something additional, you'll focus on the upper body, but I could be wrong.  If you do more, what is it you do?  Are there drills or metaphors that you've found successful for some people?

 

I am asking because I hear all the time that instructors who don't continue to grow their skills are lazy.  Maybe.  But I also think it may be because they try but end up giving up because of confusion about how to proceed when success eludes them.  If I'm right, they could do better with more support.  This is a philosophical question related to teaching.  When does a teacher stop teaching in order to hand the responsibility over to the student?  

 

How do ski area trainers handle the weaning process?  How do you handle it?

post #212 of 225
Razie, all bts is saying is that the OLR, the relaxation or flexing of the stance leg, is what facilitates a smooth passage of the mass across the skis (I actually brought this up on like page 1 or something biggrin.gif)...fail to do that appropriately/in a timely fashion and the mass will tend to come up more or even pop up and may possibly need a push across from the uphill leg because you are braced.

I suppose the ankle of the outside is involved to some degree in the flexing as it becomes "unloaded" in the process and is part of the leg after all but...

zenny
post #213 of 225
JASP, will you let BTS edit your book? smile.gif
post #214 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Last try.

...

I am asking because I hear all the time that instructors who don't continue to grow their skills are lazy.  Maybe.  But I also think it may be because they try but end up giving up because of confusion about how to proceed when success eludes them.  If I'm right, they could do better with more support.  This is a philosophical question related to teaching.  When does a teacher stop teaching in order to hand the responsibility over to the student?  

How do ski area trainers handle the weaning process?  How do you handle it?

LF, great fodder for another thread!
post #215 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Razie, all bts is saying is that the OLR, the relaxation or flexing of the stance leg, is what facilitates a smooth passage of the mass across the skis (I actually brought this up on like page 1 or something biggrin.gif)...fail to do that appropriately/in a timely fashion and the mass will tend to come up more or even pop up and may possibly need a push across from the uphill leg because you are braced.

I suppose the ankle of the outside is involved to some degree in the flexing as it becomes "unloaded" in the process and is part of the leg after all but...

zenny

Well that is how I prefer to release the CoM. As you know there are others who like the option of nudging it off the bracing outside leg by using the other leg to nudge it out of balance or to downright push on it. That method also does release the CoM and contribute to moving it across. In my opinion there are negative unintended consequences for doing that. I do feel that a significant number of recreational skiers, including full cert instructors, end up relying on some pushing to move their unreleased CoM across rather then "allowing" it to be released. So yes they achieve a release of the CoM, but many of them have what I consider poor turn entries with late balance and edge engagaemen as the unintended consequence of pushing themselves across. Or pop extensions they unweight themselves and cause other problems. Generally these skiers struggle to truly master the bumps also as they still have to master the flex to release mode.

Let me try to relate this back to the thread topic. At the end of a turn, if the inside foot has been allowed to drift too far forward into tip lead, and if that becomes habitual, the skier will probably develop other habits of extending that leg as they make a corrective forward and upward move to get out of the backseat. If they try to flex to release from that scissored stance, they will be seriously aft. So intuitively doing what they need to do in order to get forward sooner, they will likely move up, and they will probably develop OLR laziness.

Further to that, there is a question about how to activate the new inside foot during turn init. I've seen it presented that advancing the inside foot with lead change could be good. I say that act inhibits tipping in the inside foot, which again if turned into a habit will cause the skier to seek other ways and other modes of skiing where they develop edge angles moving the hips across and letting the lazy inside foot tipping be more of a result. If you want active foot tipping and to get max results from that, then you need to pull or hold the inside foot back as you tip it to the LTE, ideally on a bent and/or flexing leg.

Both of the above two things will contribute to better skiing but also will contribute to less development of inside tip lead. Around the apex is when there may be some unavoidable inside tip lead due to inclination and counter. But look at WC skiers and you will not see much of it. It's there but pay close attention to the dorsiflexion of their inside foot around the apex. They are massively holding that foot back. As they come out of the apex they continue to hold that foot back and as the inclination lessons in their release the tip lead vanishes so that by the time they are on flat skis, there is no need to get rid of any tip lead, it's already gone. IMHO that doesn't happen from pushing the outside ski forward, it comes from containing the inside foot at all times, during turn init, through the apex and during release.

Mark, near as I can tell hell hasn't frozen over. ;-)
post #216 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Razie, all bts is saying is that the OLR, the relaxation or flexing of the stance leg, is what facilitates a smooth passage of the mass across the skis (I actually brought this up on like page 1 or something biggrin.gif)...fail to do that appropriately/in a timely fashion and the mass will tend to come up more or even pop up and may possibly need a push across from the uphill leg because you are braced.

I suppose the ankle of the outside is involved to some degree in the flexing as it becomes "unloaded" in the process and is part of the leg after all but...

zenny


yeah - got it. while it's still lower body first ;) you're saying it's not feet first... i was saying that i don't know if i'm that careful with muscle relaxations as to decouple lower leg from upper leg, but it's all rhetorical 'cause the snow's all gone... :hissyfit: 

 

p.s. you need video to verify OLR - there are many many degrees of R and the more I think I R it the more I realize how little I R it :)


Edited by razie - 4/28/15 at 9:28am
post #217 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


yeah - got it. while it's still lower body first ;) you're saying it's not feet first... i was saying that i don't know if i'm that careful with muscle relaxations as to decouple lower leg from upper leg, but it's all rhetorical 'cause the snow's all gone... :hissyfit: 

 

p.s. you need video to verify OLR - there are many many degrees of R and the more I think I R it the more I realize how little I R it :)

   

Not so sure how more or less rhetorical we are with or without snow but something tells me that these discussions on the chairlift between runs would produce an interesting difference in outcome. Not said in reference to skiing ability but rather ability to demonstrate concepts. 

 

In trying to think of a better sport to analogize upper and lower body separation harmony, I come up with a skate board. While the board is steered %100 with the ankles, it does so only under the command of the upper body.

post #218 of 225

Drumming.  It's another endeavor where people have to work on upper and lower body separation and harmony.

A drummer has to get hands and feet working independently of each other.  There's a lot of information out there on developing hand-foot separation in drumming.

post #219 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Drumming.  It's another endeavor where people have to work on upper and lower body separation and harmony.

A drummer has to get hands and feet working independently of each other.  There's a lot of information out there on developing hand-foot separation in drumming.

Drumming is totally  different than the simple upper lower body separation used in skiing and may I say drumming independence is much more difficult. 

 

Not only are the hands and feet different, but hands and feet are different from each other. 

 

One certainly does not need to be ambidextrous to ski well. it is mandatory in drumming, just to point out ONE major difference.

post #220 of 225
hijack.gif Check out THIS separation!

zenny
post #221 of 225
Thread Starter 
Sorry for the Lateness LF. the Ausie time zone makes answers a little late. I never leave a student in a failed mode. We work through it before moving on because my feeling is inside half discipline is that important. Shiffren demonstrated the worth of a white pass turn in Sochi. Even though in her case it was a recovery move, it would have been unlikely she could have done that if that inside half was too far out of sync. Racers do a lot of one footed skiing for that reason but in the rec world we just don't practice it as much. That is why so many otherwise good skiers struggle with that drill.
As far as what to change, we need to consider anatomical differences that might effect how they balance on one foot and our prescriptive advice needs to be based on what we see during that first attempt to get that ski to slip. That is where your good MA skills will make it pretty obvious what body parts move into the turn (down the hill) and what parts get left behind.
Some common moves are;
-head and shoulders moving downhill and the hips lagging behind
-hips moving downhill and the head and shoulders moving uphill
-up unweighting / down unweighting of any kind
-downhill arm performing a phantom pole reach
-undisciplined uphill arm / hand moves (searching for balance)
-knee abduction leading to catching the downhill edge
post #222 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Razie, That progression was by Zenny's request, so it needed to be at the level I described. From that embryonic beginning comes a student's understanding of proper upper and lower body participation. As Chad so accurately identified simultaneous movement at the feet and in the torso is the key to that release. If as you suggest we did a sequential foot first release, the rest of the body would be late to the party. That does not mean a strong focus on how we use our feet is incongruent with the simultaneous use of the rest of the body though.

At a much higher level a white pass sideslip using that same foot only, foot and knee, and finally a whole body participation progression will reveal the problems with the foot first idea.
From a practical standpoint I have used this sort of progression for years and I have to say roughly half of my level eight and nine students struggle to perform this simple release because they fail to allow the upper body to flow into the new turn as they release the edge platfom.

 

 

Thanks, jasp, for the reply.  

 

That list of how people attempt the White Pass cross-over with only partial commitment is a fine one.  (I'm always taking notes.)

"Prescriptive advice needs to be based on what we see" sounds like you deal with one person at a time, a separate solution for each, until everyone in the group gets it or time runs out.    

 

Some part of me was hoping for a group upper-body-focus that might "fix" a number of folks all at once, reducing the number who need individualized attention.

You did mention practicing one-footed skiing often, but unfortunately that isn't a focus for the end of a clinic where a bunch of folks do not successfully reach the intended outcome.  

 

I've been in training session after training session where trainees were led through a progression ending with some task (pivot slips, for instance) where way more than half do not get it.  Same for pain in the S turns, one-footed releases, railroad tracks, and the list goes on.  Time tends to run out, and some of those folks are left inaccurately thinking they succeeded.  Maybe some others believe that they don't have the inner potential to ever do the task since they were led through a progression that should have given them success.  My educator's mind tells me those two shouldn't happen.

post #223 of 225
Thread Starter 
LF, I do a lot of workshop teaching and reciprocal practice activities. That being said it takes less than five minutes to assess the entire group. The 50% that get it tend to make good partners for those who don't. Especially if you pair them up based on similar movement biases. That should take under 15 minutes in the beginner corral. Bottom line for instructors in the clinic is if they don't get it they at least know why and how to go about correcting their bias. Sometimes their mental biases get challenged and they need to adjust that aspect but even that becomes abundantly clear very quickly. The drill really is that simple.
post #224 of 225

I'm sure this isn't the case for many posting here, but a lot of folks just don't work on this stuff outside of clinic time. There's no shortcut for just doing the work.

post #225 of 225
Thread Starter 
I find it is irrelevent to some who are only there to get clinic credit to gain the priority points. My feedback to their supervisors includes that sort of stuff and I hate to see them waste their time and that of the group.
For the others who try hard but struggle, booking some pre-shift one on one time is always an option.
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