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No Edge grip when angling ski

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

Looking for some feedback on what is going on with my new Ski Logik Depth Hoar powder skis. I am a big guy, 6'4", 245lbs. The skis are full rocker, 191 cm, 143mm under foot. Yes, 143 is right. They look like water skis.  For someone my size, they should ski like a 120mm ski. 

 

Had them out for the first time in 5" new snow. When in untracked snow, they felt great. I was at Saddleback in Maine on groomers and in some glades (no open bowls or terrain). Pretty good in tracked snow too. But when I got on a groomer, or even worse, and icy slope, they were like standing on roller skates. The couldn't get any grip at all. I am mounted on the mfg line for the ski, but on the hardpack I felt mounted way too far forward. On the untracked, they felt OK. 

 

I am an expert skier and can adjust easily to most skis. These were the most confusing ski I have ever been on. The bottoms were pretty flat and the edges were sharp. When I actually measured the base bevels, they were large. About 3 deg through the front of the ski and 2 degrees through the back. 

 

I know rocker skis will feel different and I could sense that. I had to ski these more neutral and centered than a camber ski. It wasn't the rocker or the width causing this weird behavior, I feel pretty sure. My thinking is it was the base bevels being so high that on a hard surface I literally couldn't get an edge into the slope. I was watching the skis roll onto edge as I was sliding sideways along the trail and there was no grip. These felt a lot like being on cross country skis.

 

At first I though I have to remount the bindings, but I think I should get a base grind back to 1 deg. and try them again. 

 

What are your thoughts? of what is causing the extreme lack of control.

post #2 of 29

I know for a fact that Skilogic's come from the factory with a horrible tune. 

 

Very over beveled, poorly finished and inconsistent. 

 

Have them professionally tuned to a 1 Base Edge & 3 Side edge. 

 

this should improve things drastically, but don't expect them to ski like a dedicated front side ski. 

 

I have skied the Ullr's Chariot RL with  a 1/3 and they had a ton of edge grip. I understand different ski and different shape/camber, but still 101 under foot! and early rise tip!

post #3 of 29
No skilogic ski should leave the shop where its sold without a full on grind, structure, and side/base edge bevel. Like a-man says, they're a mess out of the wrapper.
post #4 of 29
Thread Starter 

Thanks Aman. Will do.  I have posted about my twin tip Ullr's Chariots with the bad factory tune. Those were hooky and way too much edge grip, it was like an on/off switch. They had inconsistent bevels. These rockered skis are just off, no on. Going between deep snow and packed snow was crazy with these things, one minute great feel and float, the next I was at the roller rink trying to keep from falling down.

post #5 of 29
I'm just here to observe that people are pulling out some really big skis when they get out of the car at Saddleback. :eek
Not saying it's quite required by the conditions in every case, mind you. But it certainly does puff up my Ambassador chest slightly. :D
post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 

Are you talking about these 

 

 

 

or maybe these

 

post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

Thanks Aman. Will do.  I have posted about my twin tip Ullr's Chariots with the bad factory tune. Those were hooky and way too much edge grip, it was like an on/off switch. They had inconsistent bevels. These rockered skis are just off, no on. Going between deep snow and packed snow was crazy with these things, one minute great feel and float, the next I was at the roller rink trying to keep from falling down.

Yeah, I remeber that. they were very underbeveled or railed and inconsistent.  Sounds like these are overbeveled or convex and inconsistent!

 

I think they only come with a 1 degree side edge from the factory and even that maybe suspect. did the shop detune or anything like that. 

 

Best bet is to grind 'em get a 1 base bevel done and 3 side edge. and then you'll know wht you have. Take the tune variable out. 

 

Might be they are just TOO FAT and TOO CURVED, for groomer:D but once the tune is pinned down, you will know!

post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

Looking for some feedback on what is going on with my new Ski Logik Depth Hoar powder skis. I am a big guy, 6'4", 245lbs. The skis are full rocker, 191 cm, 143mm under foot. Yes, 143 is right. They look like water skis.  For someone my size, they should ski like a 120mm ski. 

 

Had them out for the first time in 5" new snow. When in untracked snow, they felt great. I was at Saddleback in Maine on groomers and in some glades (no open bowls or terrain). Pretty good in tracked snow too. But when I got on a groomer, or even worse, and icy slope, they were like standing on roller skates. The couldn't get any grip at all. I am mounted on the mfg line for the ski, but on the hardpack I felt mounted way too far forward. On the untracked, they felt OK. 

 

I am an expert skier and can adjust easily to most skis. These were the most confusing ski I have ever been on. The bottoms were pretty flat and the edges were sharp. When I actually measured the base bevels, they were large. About 3 deg through the front of the ski and 2 degrees through the back. 

 

I know rocker skis will feel different and I could sense that. I had to ski these more neutral and centered than a camber ski. It wasn't the rocker or the width causing this weird behavior, I feel pretty sure. My thinking is it was the base bevels being so high that on a hard surface I literally couldn't get an edge into the slope. I was watching the skis roll onto edge as I was sliding sideways along the trail and there was no grip. These felt a lot like being on cross country skis.

 

At first I though I have to remount the bindings, but I think I should get a base grind back to 1 deg. and try them again. 

 

What are your thoughts? of what is causing the extreme lack of control.


The skis being full rocker with no camber are made for powder.  The ones I have serviced all have at least a 2 degree base bevel.  That's the way they are made.  If you can get them up on edge on a groomer they will turn because the ski is already bent into a curve.  On hard icy stuff they should suck pretty hard.  You live and learn.  Good luck.

post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 

I think what was driving me nuts about them was kind of what you just mentioned Jacques. If there was enough soft snow and I rolled them they would make a turn. They were turning from their shape mostly. When there wasn't enough soft snow to turn by their shape, they sucked pretty bad because there wasn't any edge grabbing the hard stuff underneath. On some slopes, this transition from turn to slide out happened every 50 feet or so,and since I didn't really understand what was going on, it was very unpredictable to me. As the morning wore on, and the new soft snow got packed down or skied off, I just started standing on them ready for them do anything unpredictable. It wasn't much fun. I actually really liked the skis on the deeper untracked snow, they skied really nicely. I think once I get them ground and have some edge to grip the hardpack, I will really like the ski. It is obviously for deep snow, and if in their element I won't need edges. In the East, these skis aren't made for our typical conditions, but they were an inexpensive splurge and if/when I go out west, I won't need to rent powder skis. I am hoping in spring conditions (mashed potatoes) I can have some fun on them. If they work in the mashed potatoes I will actually get some use out of them. If not, I can always let my teenager mount them on the wall in his room. He wants to really badly. The first time he saw them he took a selfie with them.  ;)  I'll have to get it from him and post it.

post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

I think what was driving me nuts about them was kind of what you just mentioned Jacques. If there was enough soft snow and I rolled them they would make a turn. They were turning from their shape mostly. When there wasn't enough soft snow to turn by their shape, they sucked pretty bad because there wasn't any edge grabbing the hard stuff underneath. On some slopes, this transition from turn to slide out happened every 50 feet or so,and since I didn't really understand what was going on, it was very unpredictable to me. As the morning wore on, and the new soft snow got packed down or skied off, I just started standing on them ready for them do anything unpredictable. It wasn't much fun. I actually really liked the skis on the deeper untracked snow, they skied really nicely. I think once I get them ground and have some edge to grip the hardpack, I will really like the ski. It is obviously for deep snow, and if in their element I won't need edges. In the East, these skis aren't made for our typical conditions, but they were an inexpensive splurge and if/when I go out west, I won't need to rent powder skis. I am hoping in spring conditions (mashed potatoes) I can have some fun on them. If they work in the mashed potatoes I will actually get some use out of them. If not, I can always let my teenager mount them on the wall in his room. He wants to really badly. The first time he saw them he took a selfie with them.  ;)  I'll have to get it from him and post it.


I have seen people rip pretty good on those full rocker skis in soft crud and corn.  As well on hero snow groomers.  If they are not total reverse sidecut less base bevel may help you out, but they are what they are.  I still have never skied a pair myself.  Goes to show in the sport there is always something new to learn.  You will "figure" them out and know when to, or not to use them.  Take care!

post #11 of 29

Less base bevel, more side edge bevel = some degree of better grip and it sounds like anything would be an improvement.

post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Less base bevel, more side edge bevel = some degree of better grip and it sounds like anything would be an improvement.


Hard to improve for anything less than powder!

 

post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Hard to improve for anything less than powder!

 

 

 

Look planky to me.

post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

Hard to improve for anything less than powder!

 

I'm guessing those are for one and a half rocking chairs?

post #15 of 29

Base side up, ready for the vise - true rockers

post #16 of 29
Speaking of chairs.
post #17 of 29
Do they go slow, too? smile.gif
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

Hard to improve for anything less than powder!

 

I'm guessing those are for one and a half rocking chairs?


They are barrel staves!

post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Speaking of chairs.


Are those contest skis?  Did you win them?

post #20 of 29
Nope. Deschutes brewery skis hanging in wv lodge bar. Sure would like to ski them.
post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post

Hard to improve for anything less than powder!

 

I'm guessing those are for one and a half rocking chairs?

 

Nice reverse reverse camber.   I bet they're awesome on rails :D.        And they come in 3s just like Atomic skis used to - 2 and a spare.

post #22 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Yeah, I remeber that. they were very underbeveled or railed and inconsistent.  Sounds like these are overbeveled or convex and inconsistent!

 

I think they only come with a 1 degree side edge from the factory and even that maybe suspect. did the shop detune or anything like that. 

 

Best bet is to grind 'em get a 1 base bevel done and 3 side edge. and then you'll know wht you have. Take the tune variable out. 

 

Might be they are just TOO FAT and TOO CURVED, for groomer:D but once the tune is pinned down, you will know!

 

Adding an update to this thread on my new powder skis (new last year) that couldn't get any edge grip on hard snow.These are Ski Logik Depth Hoars, 191cm, 143mm wide, rocker, camber, rocker profile.  I had them ground and re-beveled to a 1,3 at SKIMD's shop. He actually called me before he did them to discuss what he was going to do. He said the bevels were high and the bottom was concave (ptex low). He didn't think he should/could make the ptex flat, as that would take too  much off. I agreed and said get the outer 1/3's flat if possible, but get the bottom bevel back to 1 deg. 

 

I used them this weekend in 5" of new powder and it was a success. They were very floating and fun in the powder. It didn't last long at Sunday River as it was very crowded and a lot of trails were scraped off quickly. It was a good test of the edges to see if I had any grip, and voila  I did. They weren't carviing RR tracks for sure, but I could edge them and make them do what I wanted. On the really hard stuff, I think the best I could do was "slarve" them, which is  about what I expected. They were very controllable, although not the best choice for the scraped slopes. I found I would look for the untracked mogulled up sides of the slope and that was a more enjoyable place to play on these skis. They are pretty stiff for a powder ski, although pretty soft compared to a race ski, so they flexed over the bumps pretty well and pivoted really easy. 

 

All in all, I had fun on them. I liked the rockered tips and tails because they are so  different from my other cambered skis, it was very different feeling. I did wheelie out on one bump and lost the tails. Hard to recover from the back seat on these rockered tails. In the right conditions (new snow and soft spring snow) these skis will be a lot of fun. The next day I changed to fully chambered skis and was having a lot more fun on the scraped stuff. The 143 wide was not a problem for me, I didn't really think they felt too wide. They did feel wide, but not "obeese" is a way to put it. I am very large and these skis provide all the float I need. Very cool.

 

Here is a pic.  (there really is some snow in New England, not much though)

 

post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by bttocs View Post
 

 

Adding an update to this thread on my new powder skis (new last year) that couldn't get any edge grip on hard snow.These are Ski Logik Depth Hoars, 191cm, 143mm wide, rocker, camber, rocker profile.  I had them ground and re-beveled to a 1,3 at SKIMD's shop. He actually called me before he did them to discuss what he was going to do. He said the bevels were high and the bottom was concave (ptex low). He didn't think he should/could make the ptex flat, as that would take too  much off. I agreed and said get the outer 1/3's flat if possible, but get the bottom bevel back to 1 deg. 

 

I used them this weekend in 5" of new powder and it was a success. They were very floating and fun in the powder. It didn't last long at Sunday River as it was very crowded and a lot of trails were scraped off quickly. It was a good test of the edges to see if I had any grip, and voila  I did. They weren't carviing RR tracks for sure, but I could edge them and make them do what I wanted. On the really hard stuff, I think the best I could do was "slarve" them, which is  about what I expected. They were very controllable, although not the best choice for the scraped slopes. I found I would look for the untracked mogulled up sides of the slope and that was a more enjoyable place to play on these skis. They are pretty stiff for a powder ski, although pretty soft compared to a race ski, so they flexed over the bumps pretty well and pivoted really easy. 

 

All in all, I had fun on them. I liked the rockered tips and tails because they are so  different from my other cambered skis, it was very different feeling. I did wheelie out on one bump and lost the tails. Hard to recover from the back seat on these rockered tails. In the right conditions (new snow and soft spring snow) these skis will be a lot of fun. The next day I changed to fully chambered skis and was having a lot more fun on the scraped stuff. The 143 wide was not a problem for me, I didn't really think they felt too wide. They did feel wide, but not "obeese" is a way to put it. I am very large and these skis provide all the float I need. Very cool.

 

Here is a pic.  (there really is some snow in New England, not much though)

 

Thumbs Up  I am still very interested in a pair of Ullr's Chariot TT's . Might have to snoop around for a pair!

post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 

Atomic,

 

I think you will really like the Chariot TT's. I love mine in 178cm length. For me, they are a wide slalom ski, but they will do GS turns very effortlessly. I skied the Depth Hoar on the snow day, the chariots the day after the storm, and my SL race ski on the third day. It was a toss up between the Chariots and the SL race ski for which was the most fun. The race skis carve better but no float, the Chariots just the opposite, but they do carve very well, just not real quick edge to edge.

post #25 of 29
True dat. I ski the chariots & Howitzers,which both have good edge bite. There aren't sl/gs skis but are still fun skis.

post #26 of 29

@ buttocs

 

My opinion is its likely you have negative bevel on those skis, meaning the edge angle is more than 90 degrees.

 

Many powder skis and homespun all-mountain skis have vertical sidewalls with no angle and when tuners try to side file these skis the sidewall material

prevents the file from angling inward. When a novice tuner uses a 90 degree (or less) angle on the side they will "try" to get the file to bite into the steel edge

so they feel like they are getting some edge, this is the kiss of death as the result is they roll the file over the edge to get that bite resulting in a negative angle.

 

This link will show an angled sidewall. I'll look for an image of a vertical sidewall, let me know if you find one first.

 

http://skibuilders.com/howto/skicon/sidewalls.shtml

post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 

The skis have an angled side wall on them. Ski Logik does a good job of exposing the side wall of the edge so you can get a file or stone on it without having to cut back the side wall of the ski. I can take a picture if you want. After digging into the problem at the end of last season and having the skis ground and the base and side edge angle redone, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of what the problem was. Before grinding, I measured the base bevel with my true bar, magnifying goggles, and feeler gages. It varied from 1.5-3 deg over the length of the ski. I didn't check the side wall angle that you suspect could be an issue, but the edges felt pretty sharp. This was the way the ski came from the factory. My true bar is not long enough to cover the width of the ski, which is pretty amazing I think, so I don't really know how flat the bottom was.

 

After grinding, skis performed beautifully. Before, no edge grip on hard snow, plenty on soft snow from the shape of the ski penetrating the snow. Keep in mind, I am 245 lbs, the skis are tip/tail rocker with some camber underfoot, and they are 6" wide. Basically even when on edge on hard snow, there isn't a full length of edge in contact with the snow due to the rocker and width (I can only get them angled so much due to their width). At my weight, its pretty easy to overpower any edge grip except a full on FIS GS race ski (I own one of them so I know). After grinding I have a decent amount of edge grip and I can ski them down any icy slope in control. Before grinding, I couldn't keep them going in one direction if my life depended on it. It felt like the first time I tried roller skating at an indoor rink. I was doing splits and almost slid off the trail a couple of times. Kind of scary.

 

I can now say that a 140mm wide ski will float a 250lb person close to the top of powder snow. I have a 101mm wide Ski Logik ski and I get some float from those, but they do not float me near the top, I sink pretty good on those, but they are very stable and controllable. The 101 skis float well in spring mashed potato snow and are a great choice. Will have to see what a 140 feels like in mashed potatoes.(hopefully like a pad of melted butter :popcorn)

post #28 of 29

@ buttocs

 

Sounds like the problem is fixed.

 

From what you wrote your skis could have been over-beveled on the base, which is common, so when you ground the skis you reset the base edge to more like a 1 (or less) degree. If a base bevel is over 1 degree the skis will not hold well and I've seen plenty of skis with base bevels in the 4 - 5 degree range and have heard the complaints that come with that situation.

post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post
 

@ buttocs

 

Sounds like the problem is fixed.

 

From what you wrote your skis could have been over-beveled on the base, which is common, so when you ground the skis you reset the base edge to more like a 1 (or less) degree. If a base bevel is over 1 degree the skis will not hold well and I've seen plenty of skis with base bevels in the 4 - 5 degree range and have heard the complaints that come with that situation.

Tom, Ski Logic is famous for horriibly inconsistent base bevel and only 1 degree side edge angle.  

 

Once they are properly set to 1/3 they should ski very well!

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