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Nordica Dobermann EDT 130 - did i choose them well?

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 

Hi there everyone, i'm a recent member but i've been reading the forum in the last 2 years, excuse my writing skills, i have problems putting my ideas in order, so have a little patience with me:)


I've just bought a pair of nordica dobermann EDT 130, size 27,5 and went on the slopes yesterday to test it, i ski a pair of Atomic Race SL 170 and another pair of Redster D2 GS 179, i'm about 1.9 m tall, and weigh around 69kg


My first pair of boots as a teenager were Rossignol Salto, size 29,5, the next were Nordica Transfire R3 29,5, and now the Nordica Dobermann EDT 130 size 27,5.


At first i was determined to buy the Raptor B2


In the shop i've put on several models, different sizes from Head Raptor B2, Fischer RC4 Vacuum fit 130, Atomic Redster Pro 130, and the Dobermann, which i found to be the snuggest fit. The Raptor B2 28,5 was a total disappointment in build quality( the buckle pivoting rivets were quite loose, because they're pinned only on the exterior side, whereas nordica pins them on both sides of the buckle pivoting mount), also when the buckles are closed, they scratch the plastic, and the micro adjustment exterior tube touches the fixed part of the buckle and scratches the paint away...the nordica buckles seem of a better build quality and the servolock sistem makes them much easier to close under tension.


The Raptor B2 had a firm fit in the area of the lower buckles, but the calf area was extremely large, even with the top buckles tighten at the maximum, with all the spoilers mounted ( velcro + RD slalom spoiler ) and with the booster strap tighten at maximum, fitted through the silver ring, it left a space of about 5 centimeters between the inner wall of the liner and my calf area, so there was virtually no fore/aft support, i could stand upright in them...and the calf plastic was very soft and thin, i think maybe there was something wrong with that pair, because i know that the raptor b2 has one of the snuggest fits there is


I have a low volume foot, 293mm length, 97mm last, and no bumps and protrusions

the boot has a sole length of 315mm, it's the same shell for 27 and 27,5, i thing the 27 liner would pack in to soon because it's thicker so i've chosen 27,5 ( but i'm not sure if there's any real difference between full and half sizes, according to some other topics on the forum )

the front sole protrudes 8 mm to the exterior and the rear sole 6 mm, and assuming that the wall of the boot is at least 3 mm thick ( maybe someone here knows exactly ) the inner shell length at the zeppa level would be 315 - ( 7+5 ) - ( 3+3 ) = 297mm, i will try to do a more accurate measurement

i didn't manage to measure the boot inside because the heel and toe pockets are rounded, so the inner length varies with height, but for sure when doing the shell fit with the foot firmly placed on the zeppa board i have below 10mm distance between the wall and the heel, and i seem to match the last of the boot because there is no sideways play, only a little if i lift the foot

the ankle bones almost touch the metal fittings of the canting screws on the inside and the distance between the navicular area to the boot upper wall is almost 10mm with the buckles not tighten at all

the liner is simple, not laced, has a neoprene pocket at the toe area, and a hard plastic tongue with a thickness of about 20mm


this being said, i think the 315mm shell is the smallest i can fit

during skiing i use a thin sock, because a thicker sock itches my skin and i begin to feel the thousand needle pain


i tighten the buckles at the third tooth for each one, and the velcro strap medium tight, my feet go numb after some time, but not having any abnormal protrusions i feel no pain, or maybe because they're numb i don't feel pain.

If i tighten the calf area harder, i begin to feel the canting screws and they leave  little red marks on the skin


anyway after a day of skiing i don't have blisters, just a slight pain on the cuboid protrusion

the only time when they hurt is when i walk to the car with the buckles open, probably because the foot slides fore aft a few milimeters.

i can fit the boot with the liner inside, by splitting the lower folds with my fingers, and only if the boot is warm

if the boot is cold, getting the foot out is very hard and either warm or cold, the foot comes out only together with the liner

even when shellfitting without a liner i have to split the folds to get the foot in, so in my opinion i've chosen a very good fit for me


an other thought was to order the WC EDT 130 for the narrower last and the laced liner ( but i think it's the same thing because the last is narrower, and also the liner is narrower, so it equals the same last for me ), but in Romania, where i'm from, there isn't any real boot fitter and no one has a sole grinding tool, because as you know, the WC models come only lifted and have to be ground to DIN standard ( one idiot "expert" instructor told me that real racers buy shells one number up, because their feet swell, that was a very stupid thing to hear from a ski coach!!!! ) so the bottom line is that you can find proper equipment in romania, but you can not find a public store to proper tune your equipment, so i don't trust anybody



ok so after this long text ( excuse me again if my ideas weren't easy to read ) i have a few questions


1) i've noticed that racers have a very pronounced forward lean, i guess that they really tighten their buckles, i really want that for my boot, but i don't know how to tune it, even if i remove the top screw and the flex gets softer, my knee doesn't get over the binding, it stays a little in front of the toes ( i saw a lange 130rs at a teen racer on the slope and it was very leaned, his tibia had a pronounced forward angle exiting the boot, and his knees were way in front of the toes when he sat in line at the chairlift, but his calf buckles weren't tighten that much, only 2 teeth from 6, but i think it is dangerous to ski like that, too much wobble and you can twist your leg...so the question is do they tune the forward lean from the liner ( like a very thin tongue and a velcro spoiler at the back ) or from the upper boot part? because the upper part of the boot isn't as leaned as the tibia bone...for me all racers seem to have bended tibias:))

should i remove both screws? but then gone will be the rebound...i want an aggressive lean angle with the buckles closed firmly and the velcro booster strap tighten


2) given my foot length of 293mm, do you think i could have got into a 305mm shell ( the next lower size, 26,5 ) ? i think not because those would be impossible to get into,comparing with my actual size, that is quite difficult to fit into


3) the boots are a bit assymetrical, in the way that the overlapped fold on the right boot seems to be a few mm offset from the center line and the lower 2 buckles cannot be closed at the first teeth, because they jump up...is this a problem? when i ski buckled i feel the same fit on both legs, but for sure the distance between the teeth on the overlapped fold and the buckle hinge on the underlapped fold are definitely different between the left and right foot, the proof being that the buckles don't have a grip on the first teeth, but this get's adjusted with the micro setting


4) a general question : are boots more upright in slalom and more forward leaned in GS? or is it the same boot with different flex settings so that the racer can flex it easyer


i will post some photos of the boot tomorrow and hopefully some of you will enlighten me on the vast domain of bootfitting, because i haven't found an adequate technician to get theese things explained...at least in romania the racers are not passionate in my oppinion and they don't know tech stuff, they just ski and don't talk that much...i've talked with a lot of racers and none of them managed to explain to me the forward lean topic...i got plain and rude answers sometimes


as a final info, i'm extremely passionate about ski and i'm a tech guy, i've explained physics phenomena when i was a kid using lego technic, and i've joined this forum because i haven't found a conventional information source, so please help me with a lot of posts

thank you in advance:)

post #2 of 10

Nice job explaining everything since English is not your first language.


Still some things don't add up for me so despite your long post, I'll ask short questions.


Your foot is 293mm or 29.3cm which should put you in a Mondo 29 boot, yet you are in a 27.  Some people downsize, but 2 sizes is not very common without a boot fitter.  Isn't even common with a fitter.


You say 5cm between your leg and the liner.  That is a huge space.  I've never seen anything like it.  Are you certain.


Boots for SL and GS and typically the same boot.  High level skiers may have different setups but we are talking national team.


Wouldn't worry about buckle settings being different on each foot.  Feet are different even on the same body. 


Why do you want the boot to have an aggressive lean angle?



post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 
Hi, thanks for the answer, the 5cm gap occured when trying the raptor B2, i will post a photo and a video to prove that.

I downsized until i found the snuggest fit, after trying different Dobermann sizes i felt best in these ones and only after putting it on i saw the mondo size.
I've read here that the optimum shell fit has to have a gap of around 10 to 15 mm, that was my main goal
Here are the photos with the raptor ,and a comparison between dobermann 29 and 27,5

I'll post more photos tonight, i'm writing from my cell phone now

Regarding the forward lean, i feel better with a more forward stance,because i'm very tall and it helps me stack low and i feel a more responsive ski this way...clearly these boots don't have forward lean adjustment, probably only by removing the top screw to lower the flex i can achieve that, but i will lose some lateral stiffness also by doing that
Also the cuff is proportionally shorter for this boot and in theory it means i can flex more than with a taller cuff of a larger mondo size
post #4 of 10

You appear to have a slim calf in the pics of your leg in the boots.  


What is the circumference of your calves at the top of the liners?


Slim calves in an upright boot (Doberman) would cause you to load the heel of the foot and boot at transition---you may need more forward lean to move your center of mass to a position

just in front of the boot sole center (of just behind your metatarsal heads)  This way your body weight combined with "G" forces would flex the boot for you.


It is easy to increase forward lean by stacking spoilers in between the liner and shell----it turns out that there is a very specific amount of forward lean needed for each size circumference leg to position your COM in the correct place over your foot.  This is not rocket science.



post #5 of 10
Thread Starter 
I'll make some measurements at home and post an update, so in your oppinion the dobermann is an upright boot compared to other models?
Clearly the lange 130RS i saw on the slopes had a pronounced forward lean of the leg, without having a spoiler mounted, and the calf screws were all removed, but even when skiing, the plastic cuff was upright, only the leg was forward leaned...the forward lean issue is a perpetuous mistery for me, because inserting more spoilers will deform the velcro strap shape

I mean that if you stand forward strong on the tongues, with or without a spoiler,i think the forward lean angle is given by the front of the cuff shape , my proof being that the stronger you close the cuff buckles, the more upright the stance gets, so if you ski with the cuff buckles loose, you can flex like michael jackson in the smooth criminal video, obviously not recommended, because you can easily twist your leg and get an injury

So i'll post the measurements later
post #6 of 10

I assume the image of your leg in the Head without the liner is meant to show the gap (5cm) you are talking about.  It is not relevant.  There will be a gap in all boots.  I'm not certain how you are comfortably getting your 29 foot into a 27 shell and that should be discussed.


Cuff is pretty much the same height in 27, 28 and 29.  May even be identical, but it will vary from boot to boot.


Not certain I agree the goal is to have G forces help you flex the boot.  I would say goal is to stand stacked, not collapse the ankle and not use the boot to help you stand up.  Also, more forward lean does not necessarily move you forward.  Many skiers compensate by moving rearward, although I agree with Mike it may sometimes help as each person reacts differently.



post #7 of 10
Thread Starter 
Look closer at the picture, the raptor b2 had the liner mounted, it is not an empty shell!
That boot fit was the worst, even if i have a thin calf muscle, there shouldn't be such a gap with the buckles and the strap fully closed
And i think that moving the teeth inside to have a tighter fit would deform the plastic on the long term

Clearly between the dobermann and the raptor there is a visible difference in cuff space, the raptor being very wide as can be seen, you can fit a 2liter pepsi bottle inside the cuff with the buckles closed

Another thing i like about the 27.5 size is that the sole tip is a little behind the knee line and i can apply more leverage without any effort, for example it is difficult to walk in them because you tip over to the front and fall on your knees, this didn't happen when wearing a 29 size

Anyway clearly all racers, regarding height and weight and boot brand,have very pronounced lean, no one can argue with that, it's just that i haven't figured out if the lean is achieved through flexion, or their boots are rock hard stiff and they are factory molded with a pronounced lean of the cuff or of the liner

Does anybody know if the Doberman world cup 130/150 has a more pronounced lean than dobermann edt 130?
Clearly the liner of the wc model is thinner and has laces

Looking at a picture on nordica.com of mattias hargin getting a factory boot fit on dobermann wc 150 shows that the shell has the same proportions as my dobermanns,regarding the lean angle, and the liner looks the same, but it has laces and an adjustable tongue

I own 2 pairs of dobermanns, 29 and 27,5 and i can tell you that the height of the boot differs with about 15mm, both the shell and the liner have different heights, probably they assume that people with lower size boot are shorter in leg size and height

There was a topic around with a guy that wore a 10,5 shoe size and had a dobermann 150 with 8 size, he had 0 heel space and used a zipfit liner probably, but still he went too small in size
post #8 of 10
Thread Starter 
I've made some more exact measurements, my foot's lenght is 286mm, and the last is about 96mm, and the shell inner length is about 295mm, i cannot measure it exactly because the heel pocket is round...i've made a couple of photos for you to figure out the situation.
If i insert more spoilers, the liner gets deformed and leans forward and i have to buckle less teeth to fit the same leg cuff volume
even if in the photos the boot seems so short in height, i'm very comfortable with the support.
a skier like marcel hirscher who is short, probably has a boot that swallows half of his tibia

so here are the pictures of the boot and the liner, in comparison to my foot

here are the measurements, i figured 286mm length, 96mm last width, and inner shell length at bootboard level ( zeppa ) 282mm, and inner shell length a little below ankle level at about 295 ( i can't measure exactly because of the rounded heel pochet shape, the front sole has a protrusion of about 8mm, and the rear one about 6mm, and the liner exterior length is 280mm, when i put my foot in the liner, the toes bend the neoprene pocket at the front
assuming that the plastic wall thickness is at least 3mm i probably have a space of 10mm between the heel and the boot wall

here is the boot buckled

here is the boot unbuckled( buckles coupled at first teeth ), doing this pronounces the lean, but you cannot ski like this, zero rebound and a loose fit that can earn you a nice injury

here i placed a simulation of a spoiler ( it's an external battery about 1 cm thick ) and by doing that it seems to add more forward lean, but it disrupts the liner shape and i didn't see any extra spoilers in any boot on the slope that had a pronounced forward lean ( i was telling earlyer about a Lange 130 rs with strong forward lean )

here are 2 videos showing the cuff gap i've encountered fitting the Raptor B2 with buckles fully closed, and the other one of the Dobermann 27,5 shell fit play, i say there is between 10 to 15 mm gap between the heel and the heel pocket wall, i'll try to measure it more precise...even if it seems a big gap, the liner fills it tight and it is a very snug fit ...the next lower shell size is 305mm ( this one has 315mm) and honestly i don't think i could fit in the 305mm shell and liner, it would be to cramped for me



so in the end do you consider this a loose fit for me? i don't think this liner will pack out any time soon because it is lined with hard plastic all over, it is not a foam
do you think with 286mm foot lenght i could have a fit in a 305mm boot sole length?
the buckles don't hurt me when i tighten them, but my feet go numb after a while with a thin sock, and very quickly with a thick sock
i think that a lower volume boot like the dobermann WC would definitely be harder to fit in because of the narrower instep( and i have a little bumped instep , not that flat), and anyway if i really want to lower the volume i can always buy a custom pronation fitted sole ( the one that comes inside the liner) or a sole that goes between the bootboard and the liner, which will lift my foot up against the boot "sealing wall"
Edited by vmaprilia - 4/8/15 at 2:25pm
post #9 of 10
Thread Starter 
here are some snapshots with Marcel Hirscher, in this first photo he has a pronounced lean, but i've noticed that the buckles are all open

in these 2 photos it seems to me he has a pronounced forward lean, obviously buckles are closed now, but i cannot figure out the real angle because he has a compound position, and the skis are also bent on the side.
i wonder what size his foot is and what size the shell is?

when he is in the middle of the transition between edges, he has a neutral stance

Schiffrin's outside leg here seems very flexed

and here it seems the Raptor has lifted heel soles, more lifted than the toe soles, which seems to increase the ramp angle

post #10 of 10
Thread Starter 
I've removed the top screw from the cuff and it seems ok now, the fact that i have a long tibia makes it look that i stand more upright
Probably the lean angle is the same, but i look different

I think the boot has a good fit because i can barely fit a finger behind the heel .
In the area behind the ankle it is very narrow but behind the heel there is like 8-10 mm of space, i can insert a narrow pen and it touches the wall firmly

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