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Edgehold on ice???

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
What would help edgehold in icy conditions?
- 3 degree side bevel angle or higher
- sharp tune
- full camber
- stiff flex
- and/or else?
post #2 of 29
Technique.
post #3 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

What would help edgehold in icy conditions?
- 3 degree side bevel angle or higher
- sharp tune
- full camber
- stiff flex
- and/or else?

BALANCING over the outside ski.   A sharp ski with good torsional stiffness helps.    YM

post #4 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

What would help edgehold in icy conditions?
- 3 degree side bevel angle or higher
- sharp tune
- full camber
- stiff flex
- and/or else?

 

Yes.

post #5 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

What would help edgehold in icy conditions?
- 3 degree side bevel angle or higher
- sharp tune
- full camber
- stiff flex
- and/or else?

I think Sibhusky nailed it but to take it a little further -

Technique is the main ingredient. You can have everything you listed and in the absence of technique, you won't hold an edge.

Next I would list as tactics. Part f holding an edge on ice is knowing how to turn on it and in doing so, you might have to change where and when you make that turn.

I would finish with a sharp edge. I don't think it matters what the edge angle is as long as it is sharp. I've seen plenty of folks hold on ice that have a 1/2 set and do just as wel as folks with a .75/3. Remember; a dull knife will cut an apple but it will require more work and care.

Wth regards to flex - it is up to the skier to ski the ski.

Ken
post #6 of 29

Turn entry is the key to edge grip on ice.  You need:

 

--effective release and patience at the top of the turn so you get edge engagement before skis reach the fall line.

--no pivoting at the top of the turn, unless you are a world cup superstar in which case you can do whatever you want.

--If the edges are not gripping after the fall line, it's too late.  No jamming or "pressing" on the edges down there should be necessary.  

 

It's ice.  Be nice to ice.

post #7 of 29

There have been quite a few threads on ice. I'd suggest doing a search. Or we can do it all again - not like we have anything better to do! IMHO good skiing on ice is just like skiing on any other surface. Patience is a virtue, stand on your outside ski, change edges together and allow the skis to work. What makes it hard for you I could not say, but video is always a plus!

post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
Thanks everyone. Can good technique alone be effective on ice without sharp tune and/or right equipment? I can really bite into ice on my race skis, but am hit or miss on other skis.

For example, my E88 just wouldn't hold its edge at all on icy double blue runs at DV yesterday. The skis weren't sharpened for 4 full days of skiing.

EDIT
I think I answered my own question. The edges must be sharp, remembering from my ice hockey days in my younger years. So both technique and equipment..
post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

Can good technique alone be effective on ice without sharp tune and/or right equipment?

 

It can be. Or not. Sometimes you just need to accept that you're going to slide a bit and embrace it.

post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

Thanks everyone. Can good technique alone be effective on ice without sharp tune and/or right equipment? 

 

Depending on pitch, speed of travel, what you define as "ice", inappropriateness of gear/tune, and what you consider "effective": absolutely maybe ;)

 

You can't cut ice with a spaghetti noodle. 

post #11 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

Thanks everyone. Can good technique alone be effective on ice without sharp tune and/or right equipment? I can really bite into ice on my race skis, but am hit or miss on other skis.

For example, my E88 just wouldn't hold its edge at all on icy double blue runs at DV yesterday. The skis weren't sharpened for 4 full days of skiing.

EDIT
I think I answered my own question. The edges must be sharp, remembering from my ice hockey days in my younger years. So both technique and equipment..

If your skis had a fresh tune prior to those 4 days, I doubt dull edges are the lone issue.
post #12 of 29
Racers race on ice. Racers use race skis for a reason. Some tools are better than others for the job at hand. Having the proper tool is nothing without the technique to use it.
post #13 of 29

Ice is a very good determining factor if you are wondering how much you may be letting yourself get away with when on soft snow. Enhancing the movements that allow for better edge hold on hard ice will provide you with a mapping tool for personally developed movements that will enhance your performance on soft snow. 

 

Things to explore on ice:

 

1. Early weight transfer

2. Early tipping

3. Patiently developing of turning forces

4. Lengthening out the arc of the turn and, conversely, shortening/quickening transition

5. Soft on/soft off the ski, soft touch over all

post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

Ice is a very good determining factor if you are wondering how much you may be letting yourself get away with when on soft snow. Enhancing the movements that allow for better edge hold on hard ice will provide you with a mapping tool for personally developed movements that will enhance your performance on soft snow. 

Things to explore on ice:

1. Early weight transfer
2. Early tipping
3. Patiently developing of turning forces
4. Lengthening out the arc of the turn and, conversely, shortening/quickening transition
5. Soft on/soft off the ski, soft touch over all

I'm with you on most of these but aren't #1 & #3 somewhat contrary to one another?

I don't think of early weight shift but rather more focus of standing on the weighted outside ski after "patiently developing turning forces".
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13 View Post


I'm with you on most of these but aren't #1 & #3 somewhat contrary to one another?

I don't think of early weight shift but rather more focus of standing on the weighted outside ski after "patiently developing turning forces".

That is a very good point. To clarify the thinking, it is the early start of the turn that actually allows the space for gradually development of turning forces. If you start the turn late, ie: late weight transfer, then there is less space to apply the pressure gradually and the resultant abrupt turning forces can cause slippage on ice.

 

A surface like that allows you to feel a lot more of the energy transfer through your equipment and heightens the awareness of what is actually happening under your feet.. It is not only that it helps you keep things in check, it is simply an awesome feeling to hang all of your inertia on a rail only a millimeter or two deep. Sort of like dancing with the devil and getting away with it (hopefully). Hero snow is not hero snow if that is all you ski on.

 

To be honest, I truly miss the days of skiing boilerplate. I didn't get to ski ice one day this year. 

post #16 of 29
While hesitating to call anything at a Western ski area "ice" (having decades of Ice Coast in my past), I got to reacquaint myself with certain skiing conditions and the need for an edge this year. I might even put a 3 degree bevel on the powder skis this summer so I can handle firm at the top and swamp at the bottom with one pair of skis. We're open until Sunday if you need to start driving now. Lol!
post #17 of 29

 Sib, I am heading up there for that symposium this weekend...is it still firm???

 

  zenny

post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

 Sib, I am heading up there for that symposium this weekend...is it still firm???

  zenny

You dont need no stink'in powder skis! smile.gif
post #19 of 29

Sharp accute edges and good technique are needed.  Race skis work better too.  That being said, so do reasonable expectations, especially in variable conditions.

If your are skiing along in a pure carve with your skis digging into some chalky snow and you hit a patch of scraped off "ice", you had better not be at maximum grip and turn force, and you should be angulated enough with enough in reserve to ride out the slip. 

 

Take a look around the gate posts after your local race team is done with a practice.  Chances are, especially if it is a steep slalom, you will see scraped smooth snow, not grooved up snow.  You have to be able to "carve" on ice, not just pure carve.

post #20 of 29

The ski has to move along its longitudinal axis to maintain grip SLICING thru the ice. As soon as you take the ski out of its natural path moving forward you WILL lose grip and edgehold until the ski begins moving through it's own path again.  

post #21 of 29

And at base flat between left and right turns, the turn radius is infinite, but the sidecut radius is not, so you have to re-establish slicing with every transition, if slicing is what you want to do.  Ask the ski to turn too much too soon and you may find yourself scraping instead of slicing.

post #22 of 29

In the old days before shaped skis we used to say, round at the top and straight out.  In other words, get the directional change that you need but end each turn with a slice.  Still applies in many turns.  YM 

post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

 Sib, I am heading up there for that symposium this weekend...is it still firm???

  zenny

You should have been there today. God know what will happen between now and then, but today was six inches of gen-u-ine powder, non-clumping powder. WooHOO!
post #24 of 29

Instead of reposting all of the thread.

 

http://www.epicski.com/t/128307/carving-on-ice

 

Should give most of the answers you seek young jedi.

post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

 Sib, I am heading up there for that symposium this weekend...is it still firm???

  zenny

You dont need no stink'in powder skis! smile.gif

He might. Depends what day he is arriving.

post #26 of 29
Boot top. 80- 85mm will do. smile.gif

(Just giving you a hard time, Sib! Wish I were joining everyone this weekend.)
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Boot top. 80- 85mm will do. smile.gif

(Just giving you a hard time, Sib! Wish I were joining everyone this weekend.)

That was at 11:57. It kept on snowing all day.

I checked the Snotel, which is on the darn side that got all the wind and it only shows a couple inches, but it was easily six on the back by the time I left. Still able to occasionally "find bottom" in areas, though, so you would want SOME edge.... (Just to get this back on track.)

Stopped taking pictures because I was too busy skiing and grinning. However, who knows what will happen to that stuff between now and then?
post #28 of 29

sibhusky not liking you at the moment as our tulips have broken ground here in the GTA and 99.9% of the snow is gone.  Our season is over :hissyfit:

 

At least rip a couple for me.

 

Thanks.

post #29 of 29
Thanks when I feel the thighs I think about my (your) runs.

Enjoy ski on!
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