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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › Who's the bigger FOOL- Ski Resort Customers, Operators, Instructors or PSIA (April 1st Poll)?
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Who's the bigger FOOL- Ski Resort Customers, Operators, Instructors or PSIA (April 1st Poll)?

Poll Results: Who's the bigger FOOL?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 42% of voters (8)
    Instructors who willingly work for $9 to $25/hr while major US resorts charge $100 to $200+ per hour for the lessons they give.
  • 15% of voters (3)
    Customers who pay major resorts an 80 to 90% commission to sell them lessons taught by an Instructor getting paid 10 to 20% of the lesson revenue.
  • 47% of voters (9)
    Resort operators who think that short term price gauging has no long term consequences.
  • 15% of voters (3)
    The United States Forest Service for effectively granting Resort Operators an unregulated monopoly that hurts the skiing public.
  • 42% of voters (8)
    PSIA for thinking that education (and not reasonable compensation) is all that is needed for their members to develop personally & professionally
19 Total Votes  
post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by at_nyc View Post
 

So the resort falsely market their "not pros" as "top notch professionals" in order to charge "professional" rate!

 

If so, they should at least paid their "non-pro" instructors at close to "pro's" rates.

 

Who's perpetuating such false image while accepting unskilled labor rate? The ski instructors themselves!!! 

 

I guess they deserve to be paid as non-skilled seasonal labors? The one "unprofessional" behavior being they can't even negotiate their own decent pay rate. 

 

... 

 

Perhaps union can help turn that around. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
 

Yeah, an 80-20 split would be quite out of synch with typical labor markups.  A broad rule of thumb is an employer needs to bill at about twice the hourly rate to cover overhead, benefits, social security, insurance, etc. There's a lot of variation to be sure (when I freelance they mark-up my hourly rate  by about 25%, but the company is making money on things other than just labor - I also don't work cheap) but 50-50 is  what's the norm.

 

The 2000% markup (Vail charges over $200/hr and pays about $10/hr)  is absurd, and nobody should put up with it.  Not the instructors, nor the customers.

 

At 50-50, your basic $70/hr lesson would be from an instructor making a reasonable professional wage of $35/hr. 

 

I really don't understand how PSIA can refer to themselves as Professionals when they settle for boy rate.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
 

What I'm wondering about is whether the Forest Service is mandated to maximize the value of the lease, or if that is one of several competing goals.

 

I believe their motto is "Caring for the land and serving people"

post #2 of 23

It's Obama's fault. 

post #3 of 23
I don't understand why it isn't cool to do spread eagle jumps anymore?
post #4 of 23
I'm not sure "fool" is the right word but in the possible choices presented the only possible answer is the 1st one regarding the instructors.

I'd think to be a "fool" you would have to care and I'm not convinced the general public, forest service, or PSIA really do care what or even if, instructors are paid.
post #5 of 23
The State of Indiana?

Indiana_seal.jpg
Chop down a tree and the Buffalo will run away. But you've got your lumber. And the sun will rise on the land!
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13 View Post

I'm not sure "fool" is the right word but in the possible choices presented the only possible answer is the 1st one regarding the instructors.

I'd think to be a "fool" you would have to care and I'm not convinced the general public, forest service, or PSIA really do care what or even if, instructors are paid.

There are two different ways to look at the gap between lesson prices and instructor pay-

1.  Instructors are not paid enough

2.  Lesson prices are too high.

 

I think the skiing public and Forest Service could potentially care about #2 even if they don't care about #1.  As some have mentioned, the monopoly the FS gives Resort Operators extends not just to lessons, but also to food, lift tickets, etc.  

post #7 of 23
Sno Cat Food trucks should be allowed!

food-truck-meet-snowmobile
http://www.thrillist.com/eat/roving-mammoth
post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post

There are two different ways to look at the gap between lesson prices and instructor pay-
1.  Instructors are not paid enough
2.  Lesson prices are too high.

I think the skiing public and Forest Service could potentially care about #2 even if they don't care about #1.  As some have mentioned, the monopoly the FS gives Resort Operators extends not just to lessons, but also to food, lift tickets, etc.  

I agree that the public cares about the cost of lesson, but if they get to the point of caring enough, they will stop buying lesson and you will see a price adjustment. They still won't care what the instructor is paid. It's seamless to them.

I don't think the forest service care about a monopoly in any regard as they are fully aware of the situation that they willingly created/participate in. They are getting what they regard as a sufficient cut.
post #9 of 23

I don't have any real data to back this up beyond personal observation, but it seems like most of the revenues flowing to the ski schools come from parents of young skiers.  Personally, I'll pay a pretty high fee to procure someone that will take my kid(s) off my hands for an hour or six so I can ski with the big kids.. other parents may not be skiing but still drop the kids off at the ski school to free themselves up to do other things.  Until we stop paying these seemingly absurd prices then thanking the ski school for robbing us it will never stop and only continue to get worse.  At the other end of the food chain are college kids that need a little more money to ski every week but ski well enough to teach/babysit my kids for a couple hours to earn that free skiing and cheaper gear.  As long as they're willing to work for free very few full time real pro instructors will have any real bargaining power to demand higher wages.

post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The State of Indiana?

Indiana_seal.jpg
Chop down a tree and the Buffalo will run away. But you've got your lumber. And the sun will rise on the land!

It was a gay buffalo.
post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by core2 View Post

I don't understand why it isn't cool to do spread eagle jumps anymore?

It's not? Dammit, how about backscratchers or a daffy?
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The State of Indiana?

Indiana_seal.jpg
Chop down a tree and the Buffalo will run away. But you've got your lumber. And the sun will rise on the land!

It was a gay buffalo.

Who can't get served in Indiana? 

post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Who can't get served in Indiana? 

No burgers for YOU!
post #14 of 23
I'll take all of the above for 200 johnny.
post #15 of 23
Hmm.. as a RN, on a cardiac floor, what should I make then? I mean if we are talking about cost of service vs compensation of service?
post #16 of 23

Lets not forget, employee's of the ski resort get a free season pass. Don't they also get another free pass for a family member for each year they work ? Okemo does that. So if you have a wife and a couple or few kids, they get free skiing too. Plus a discount on the race program for the kids...

 

I guess that's where some of the price that I pay for a season pass goes. For the record I buy two season passes, yes I know that's my choice. I used to get a free season pass when I worked for the mt. but I want to ski more.

post #17 of 23
There's another thread on that topic, But to rehash, everyone in any industry gets some special, 'free', or 'insider' perks. Places like Wall Street come to mind as doing pretty well at their customers' collective expense. smile.gif
post #18 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToroAzul View Post

Hmm.. as a RN, on a cardiac floor, what should I make then? I mean if we are talking about cost of service vs compensation of service?

Fortunately, I have never been a cardiac patient so I am only guessing how the patient care and billing works.  I would think that there are a lot more moving parts than with a ski lesson. 

 

In the case of a private ski lesson, my client pays separately for lift ticket(s), lunch, ski equipment, etc.  This entitles them to ride the lifts, eat, etc.  I don't get a cut of this, nor do I expect to.  What I think I should get a bigger cut of is the lesson fee the resort charges the client.  On a half day REQUEST private, I get paid about 10% of what the resort charges (and this is less for guys with fewer certs than I have).  The % is less for a half day assignment and a bit more for an all day request.  Group lessons can depend on group size and other factors, but instructor total gross pay across the board at a place like Vail tends to average about 14 to 15% of the lesson revenue they teach. 

 

Does the hospital bill your services to the patient separately similar to how a resort bills for many ski lessons?  Nurses are very important & my sister is in nursing school, so I would like to see nurses paid fairly.  If patients pay 10x for "RN Services" and the hospital pays you x, then yes, I think you should be paid more (or the hospital should charge less).  As has been discussed elsewhere, a 2-3x mark-up on professional services (including ski lessons in Europe and elsewhere) seems much more common than a 7-10x mark-up.    

post #19 of 23

If you want to talk about a travesty, look at what an E1 private makes.

 

And for the record, my recent 4 day labor/delivery bill is itemized, and the doctors fee is about 10%. Yes, the doctor with 10+ years of training, education and a huge financial investment before they’re “official” is only earning 10%. You're in la la land with your expectations OP….

post #20 of 23

The biggest fool is the poll creator who puts a typo in the poll.

 

Poll: Who's the bigger FOOL?

This is a multiple choice poll
  •  
    Instructors who willingly work for $9 to $25/hr while major US resorts charge $100 to $200+ per hour for the lessons they give.
  •  
    Customers who pay major resorts an 80 to 90% commission to sell them lessons taught by an Instructor getting paid 10 to 20% of the lesson revenue.
  •  
    Resort operators who think that short term price gauging has no long term consequences.
  •  
    The United States Forest Service for effectively granting Resort Operators an unregulated monopoly that hurts the skiing public.
  •  
    PSIA for thinking that education (and not reasonable compensation) is all that is needed for their members to develop personally & professionally
post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by COBillsFan View Post

If you want to talk about a travesty, look at what an E1 private makes.

And for the record, my recent 4 day labor/delivery bill is itemized, and the doctors fee is about 10%. Yes, the doctor with 10+ years of training, education and a huge financial investment before they’re “official” is only earning 10%. You're in la la land with your expectations OP….
no, the counter argument is in the post above yours.

by that same calculation (including lift ticket and rental), instructors are being paid even more pathetic 3%, not eeven 10%
post #22 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by COBillsFan View Post
 

If you want to talk about a travesty, look at what an E1 private makes.

 

And for the record, my recent 4 day labor/delivery bill is itemized, and the doctors fee is about 10%. Yes, the doctor with 10+ years of training, education and a huge financial investment before they’re “official” is only earning 10%. You're in la la land with your expectations OP….

Are you saying the doctor is only getting 10% of the fee that you are paying for the doctors services, or he is only getting 10% of the total charges including hospital bed, medicine, machine use, nurses time, etc?  I'll bet the doctor gets way more than 10% of the doctors fee you paid (although I do agree that there seems to be way too much in the form of overhead, mark-ups for medicine/etc and non-medically necessary costs in lots of US medical treatment).  

 

Again, I am not saying that I should get a higher % of the total ski vacation expense someone pays (i.e. airfare, food, lodging, lift ticket, etc.).  What I am saying is that I should get more than 10% of the lesson fee for the lessons I teach (just like doctors get more than 10% of the doctor fee for the services they perform).

 

Are Aspen & European resorts la la land?  They charge less for lessons than Vail and pay their instructors more.  Would you rather go to a hospital, law firm, ski resort, etc. that charges you 10X for a service and pays the person providing the service 1X or one that charges you 7X and pays the person providing you the service 3X? 

post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by COBillsFan View Post

If you want to talk about a travesty, look at what an E1 private makes.

And for the record, my recent 4 day labor/delivery bill is itemized, and the doctors fee is about 10%. Yes, the doctor with 10+ years of training, education and a huge financial investment before they’re “official” is only earning 10%. You're in la la land with your expectations OP….
Agreed on the private.
The doctor works on a fee base, not a percentage. So it's an irrelevant comparison.
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