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Confirmed: VW bringing Golf Sportwagen Alltrack to the U.S. (for now...) - Page 25

post #721 of 1234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post
 

About the thread title....is the Alltrack Sportwagen (petrol) cancelled? 

As a diesel it is...hmmm might be premature, will change it back...for now ;) 


Edited by Philpug - 10/7/15 at 5:07pm
post #722 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Pandora's Box?

How about more like free advertising and getting people to think about emissions. Plus making people realize manufacturers can't police themselves. Plus making the case for stricter testing and real world testing. That cars don't pass real world testing is no surprise. They've been at this for 40 years now. Getting the country to do something about it is another thing. Especially when a bunch in Congress want to eliminate the Epa altogether.


It also makes Europe look like a joke with their emissions lack of policing. But then Germany has been brow beating the regulators there for years to let car co's by with their polluters. They've also subsidized diesel fuel and cars. So focused on pseudo CO2 levels. Pseudo because none of the cars get near the mileage they claim.

All that's gone so well Paris wants to ban vehicles because of crappy air.
Pandora's box in that once they start testing vehicles (not just diesels)  in real world driving situations I think there will be many vehicles that will not pass. To an extent, it could be viewed as changing the rules. This very well is the tip of the iceberg. I think this is why other manufacturers didn't blow the whistle on VW, they are also in glass houses and not in a situation where they can throw stones. 

I don't think any of that is a surprise. The extent of the failure of the tdi's is beyond anything though. Then they admit they duped the test.
As I remember it, the way the Epa rules are written the manufacturer is still responsible. You have to submit lots of stuff to show you can meet it.
VW claims so far it was "a few people" - ha. But still, it's surprising that say GM didn't test their diesels to see. But maybe they did but just didn't test on the road.
Road testing is obviously more difficult and expensive. You also have to design it so it's consistent. That's where we seem to be headed though. Assuming the Epa can get funding. Europe is bringing in a road test and the standards are more polluting since thay've all been kidding themselves for so long.

I just don't see a > $1 billion fine. VW is going to have to spend a fortune to fix this. I think the Epa would rather see it resolved then a huge punishment.

Oh, VW is offering $2,000 off a new gas model for current owners!
Seems a pretty poor offer considering their sales are going into the crapper anyway.
Quote:
The current offer, which expires Nov. 2, is extended to any individual who currently owns a VW, or any of that person's family members, provided they live at the same address. Under the terms of the incentive, "Returning Volkswagen owners" could be eligible for $2,000 off a "new, unused 2015 or 2016 Jetta, Passat, CC, Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Eos, Golf, Golf GTI, Golf R, e-Golf, Golf SportWagen, Tiguan, Touareg and Touareg TDI," per the company's website.

Tellingly, the offer applies to gas models only. It excludes hybrids, the announcement says, and "all other TDI® Clean Diesel models."
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84629732/
post #723 of 1234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Pandora's Box?

How about more like free advertising and getting people to think about emissions. Plus making people realize manufacturers can't police themselves. Plus making the case for stricter testing and real world testing. That cars don't pass real world testing is no surprise. They've been at this for 40 years now. Getting the country to do something about it is another thing. Especially when a bunch in Congress want to eliminate the Epa altogether.


It also makes Europe look like a joke with their emissions lack of policing. But then Germany has been brow beating the regulators there for years to let car co's by with their polluters. They've also subsidized diesel fuel and cars. So focused on pseudo CO2 levels. Pseudo because none of the cars get near the mileage they claim.

All that's gone so well Paris wants to ban vehicles because of crappy air.
Pandora's box in that once they start testing vehicles (not just diesels)  in real world driving situations I think there will be many vehicles that will not pass. To an extent, it could be viewed as changing the rules. This very well is the tip of the iceberg. I think this is why other manufacturers didn't blow the whistle on VW, they are also in glass houses and not in a situation where they can throw stones. 

I don't think any of that is a surprise. The extent of the failure of the tdi's is beyond anything though. Then they admit they duped the test.
As I remember it, the way the Epa rules are written the manufacturer is still responsible. You have to submit lots of stuff to show you can meet it.
VW claims so far it was "a few people" - ha. But still, it's surprising that say GM didn't test their diesels to see. But maybe they did but just didn't test on the road.
Road testing is obviously more difficult and expensive. You also have to design it so it's consistent. That's where we seem to be headed though. Assuming the Epa can get funding. Europe is bringing in a road test and the standards are more polluting since thay've all been kidding themselves for so long.

I just don't see a > $1 billion fine. VW is going to have to spend a fortune to fix this. I think the Epa would rather see it resolved then a huge punishment.

Oh, VW is offering $2,000 off a new gas model for current owners!
Seems a pretty poor offer considering their sales are going into the crapper anyway.
Quote:
The current offer, which expires Nov. 2, is extended to any individual who currently owns a VW, or any of that person's family members, provided they live at the same address. Under the terms of the incentive, "Returning Volkswagen owners" could be eligible for $2,000 off a "new, unused 2015 or 2016 Jetta, Passat, CC, Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Eos, Golf, Golf GTI, Golf R, e-Golf, Golf SportWagen, Tiguan, Touareg and Touareg TDI," per the company's website.

Tellingly, the offer applies to gas models only. It excludes hybrids, the announcement says, and "all other TDI® Clean Diesel models."
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84629732/

This could only mean that TDI's are going to get a special type of deal. :rolleyes It is like being in a relationship, they cheated on you, admitted that they did...NOW they want you to commit to them again? Uhhh I don't think so. 

post #724 of 1234
Quote:
This could only mean that TDI's are going to get a special type of deal.  It is like being in a relationship, they cheated on you, admitted that they did...NOW they want you to commit to them again? Uhhh I don't think so
But.....they're giving you a seson's pass and dinners.

Dealers may be more screwed than owners. I can't imagine VW's are going to sell for awhile unless they really drop their pants. I don't think $2k is going to do it.
post #725 of 1234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 
Quote:
This could only mean that TDI's are going to get a special type of deal.  It is like being in a relationship, they cheated on you, admitted that they did...NOW they want you to commit to them again? Uhhh I don't think so
But.....they're giving you a seson's pass and dinners.

Dealers may be more screwed than owners. I can't imagine VW's are going to sell for awhile unless they really drop their pants. I don't think $2k is going to do it.

Dealers are in bad shape. I think of a dealer like Ellis in Georgia, which is a huge dealer and has all of their eggs in the VW basket or dealers that are part of a group where the owners are under the mentality of sell sell sell and bark at the sales department " Now you have to be sales people and not just order takers, now go out there and control the customer!!!" 

post #726 of 1234
Here's Michael Horn's statement to be deliverd to Congress.
This quoted part is a little confising. I think it just means the defeat device is present in the 2016 models.
Quote:
Testimony of Michael Horn, President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. Before the House Committee on Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
October 8, 2015


In Volkswagen’s recent ongoing discussions with the regulators, we described to the EPA and CARB that our emissions control strategy also included a software feature that should be disclosed to and approved by them as an auxiliary emissions control device (“AECD”) in connection with the certification process. As a result, we have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles. We are working with the agencies to continue the certification process.
https://vwdieselinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Testimony-of-Michael-Horn-Before-House-Committee-on-Energy-and-Commerce-October-8-2015.pdf
post #727 of 1234

I still want a GTI...or, even better...a GTD wagon!

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-volkswagen-golf-gtd-sportwagen-first-drive-review

 

Guess I'll have to wait awhile.

post #728 of 1234
Auxiliary Emissions Control Device. Lol.
post #729 of 1234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Here's Michael Horn's statement to be deliverd to Congress.
This quoted part is a little confising. I think it just means the defeat device is present in the 2016 models.
Quote:
Testimony of Michael Horn, President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. Before the House Committee on Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
October 8, 2015


In Volkswagen’s recent ongoing discussions with the regulators, we described to the EPA and CARB that our emissions control strategy also included a software feature that should be disclosed to and approved by them as an auxiliary emissions control device (“AECD”) in connection with the certification process. As a result, we have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles. We are working with the agencies to continue the certification process.
https://vwdieselinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Testimony-of-Michael-Horn-Before-House-Committee-on-Energy-and-Commerce-October-8-2015.pdf

Here is the broadcast: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-08/volkswagen-america-ceo-grilled-congress-over-emissions-scandal-live-webcast

post #730 of 1234

German police raided VW HQ.

post #731 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by goranmilos View Post

German police raided VW HQ.

After giving them a week to destroy evidence.
post #732 of 1234
Thread Starter 

Well, i went and got my car smogged today. They said they didn't know how long they could but until they were told they couldn't, they did it. I am good now for 13 months. 

post #733 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post


After giving them a week to destroy evidence.


I do not think that "destroying" evidence would benefit VW in this case. It is not possible to destroy evidence in this time and age. They would be better served by being absolutely transparent and cut their losses at this.

This might turn into something bigger than just the EPA case against VW or misled owners of VW vehicles.

I do not see them surviving in this shape or form - but then they survived WW2 and their reputation as "Hitler's Project" - so who knows ...

post #734 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Well, i went and got my car smogged today. They said they didn't know how long they could but until they were told they couldn't, they did it. I am good now for 13 months. 

Smogged?
post #735 of 1234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Well, i went and got my car smogged today. They said they didn't know how long they could but until they were told they couldn't, they did it. I am good now for 13 months. 

Smogged?

Emission Tested. 

post #736 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

As a diesel it is...hmmm might be premature, will change it back...for now ;)

There's wasn't much of a chance for it anyway.

 

in order for it to have AWD, it would need a rear independent suspension.  VW can't fit the AdBlue bottle within the confines of the suspension.  This is why on the current wagon, the TDI is torsion beam and the 1.8T has the independent suspension

post #737 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 

There's wasn't much of a chance for it anyway.

 

in order for it to have AWD, it would need a rear independent suspension.  VW can't fit the AdBlue bottle within the confines of the suspension.  This is why on the current wagon, the TDI is torsion beam and the 1.8T has the independent suspension

And that's why the Alltrak supposedly wasn't coming in a diesel, at least at first.  

 

I'm surprised about the 2016 diesel sales withdrawal.  Don't the 2016 cars use an SCR urea system?  I can see that they're screwed with the non-urea lean NOx trap cars, but they should be able to program in a bigger schpritz of urea, unless all of the hardware is undersized to begin with.

post #738 of 1234
@Philpug Smog test? So much for registering my TDI in Nevada. Mexico? !

Eric
post #739 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADKS View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post

 
There's wasn't much of a chance for it anyway.

in order for it to have AWD, it would need a rear independent suspension.  VW can't fit the AdBlue bottle within the confines of the suspension.  This is why on the current wagon, the TDI is torsion beam and the 1.8T has the independent suspension
And that's why the Alltrak supposedly wasn't coming in a diesel, at least at first.  

I'm surprised about the 2016 diesel sales withdrawal.  Don't the 2016 cars use an SCR urea system?  I can see that they're screwed with the non-urea lean NOx trap cars, but they should be able to program in a bigger schpritz of urea, unless all of the hardware is undersized to begin with.
Well if if it is a software fix they have to declare it and show it plus install - flash the Rom or whatever. Then VW and the EpA has to test it. This process is apparently not going to happen quickly. Maybe the way it's running now is too deeply imbedded to simply get around it.

Possibly the "Auxillary Emissions Control Device" is another controller. That's an Epa term btw. It can also mean just a software routine. Like in the current setup - a routine changed the emissions control. That's an AECD. GM once got into trouble by reducing emission controls when the air conditioner came on.

Apparently private homes were searched today slso.
post #740 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADKS View Post

And that's why the Alltrak supposedly wasn't coming in a diesel, at least at first.  

I'm surprised about the 2016 diesel sales withdrawal.  Don't the 2016 cars use an SCR urea system?  I can see that they're screwed with the non-urea lean NOx trap cars, but they should be able to program in a bigger schpritz of urea, unless all of the hardware is undersized to begin with.

That's what I had wondered earlier in the thread. Seems an easy fix unless the pumps, etc. where undersized to both make room and handle the intentionally reduced capacity.
post #741 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Possibly the "Auxillary Emissions Control Device" is another controller. That's an Epa term btw. It can also mean just a software routine. Like in the current setup - a routine changed the emissions control. That's an AECD. GM once got into trouble by reducing emission controls when the air conditioner came on.

I figured AECD was an EPA term, but got a chuckle out of hearing VW use it. As if horses are still in barns.

That GM example is, I think, a good one. AC reduces fuel economy, so tweak emissions to compensate. Think anybody does that now? My thought is that the industry as a whole is probably "tuning" across a range of conditions. We know VW developed a general cheat, but was it really an on/off system or more sophisticated across a range of conditions?
post #742 of 1234
Some of the '15s had the urea system as well at the time was looking at the '16 as well as the pricing was the same when my 09 TDI died because of serpentine belt failure, took out the timing belt just before the troubles started for VW. Bought an off lease '11 with the 2.5l gas as the replacement just as VW pulled all TDI sales new or used.
post #743 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

... my 09 TDI died because of serpentine belt failure...

WTF!?!  Your car died because of a serpentine belt failure?  

 

BK

post #744 of 1234
Article from green car reports addresses some of the possible fixes for each model and timing. Late 2016 for most models. Hope I don't have to put a bunch of money on other issues into this car before it gets fixed.

http://flip.it/7gOHX
post #745 of 1234
Well apparetnly Michael Horn of Vw NA said that the Aecd was not disclosed in their emissions filing to the Epa and Carb for the 2016. Both declined to elaborate but they working on it. It doesn't necess mean that it turns it off but it's modifying emissions control somehow. Failure to disclose these would be grounds for non compliance. Conforming to Epa/Carb standards is not just passing a dyno test. You have to show the system and show it will work. From the little I've read on Epa documents it's fairly clearly written in a common sensical way.

The Byzantine structure of credits and allowances for meeting Cafe standards is complex and would require essentially a tax lawyer like knowledge plus strategic planning by car companies.

I get the sense that VW Germany is skirting on the edge of continual stupidity and ignoring what their American division is telling them. They've ignored them for years yet complain about sales. In this case I think they fail to realize what it's going to take to keep customers. They really are going to have to be generous and take a massive loss. The loss is coming anyway. $2000 dollars off a brand new car if you buy another by Nov2?? True joke. Those cars will be on firesale anyway.

This could have the effect of Audi's unintended acceleration issue in the 90's. That killed the company for a good 10 years in the US. If VW isn't very active and generous with US customers that could happen to them. The "we know best" attitude from Germany is a very bad sign. They really don't get it.
Edited by Tog - 10/9/15 at 8:56am
post #746 of 1234

Amazing to me that they did not have a plan in place in case of getting caught by US EPA.  5+ years of cheating and no study to determine the depths of devastation to jobs, reputation, dealer network, customer base, supplier damage etc...etc...all to save a few bucks on additional exhaust hardware development and/or pay a few royalty bucks for Blue.  I bet the guy was fired that spoke up in those meetings and said let's figure out what we will do when they catch us.

 

Utterly incomprehensible that no contingency plan/exit strategy existed.  Bunch of buffoons.  The "I did not know" thing is ridiculous.  They knew.

 

As far as adding a urea tank all they need to do is reduce fuel tank size 2 gallons and add a 2 ga urea tank with opening in fuel door.   Will take up no room and reduce range an acceptable amount...since they go farther on a tank than almost anything else anyway. 

post #747 of 1234
Yeah no one is buying it was "a few engineers". A lot of this stems from their influence over German politics and pressure on the EU regulators. Testing there has been a joke. Standards are continually modified to appease car co's - mostly German. Plus their disdain for their American division.

They are dead here if they don't do something well beyond what they'll do in Europe. Either way it's going to cost them. They can easily negotiate with Epa for less fine and more customer fix. The better the customer payout, the less lawsuits. I have little faith that their family feud of a board is going to realize this though. Just the fact that only the head of VW America showed up at Congress is telling. It's highly believable that he knew nothing. Pissing off Congress is a bad idea because they start yammering for the Epa to up the fines, and calling for investigations.

From today's editorial in the NY Times:

VW Needs to Come Clean, Now
Quote:
...Meanwhile, Matthias Müller, the newly appointed Volkswagen chief executive, continued to insist that his predecessor, Martin Winterkorn, who resigned shortly after the scandal broke in September, knew nothing. “Do you really think that a chief executive had time for the inner functioning of engine software?” he said in an interview with Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, as if the problem was some minor malfunction and not an elaborate effort to deceive regulators and customers around the world.

If Mr. Winterkorn was not responsible, who is? Nobody believes that the handful of senior managers suspended so far, three of them involved in engine development, could have carried out this scheme without any support. Hans-Dieter Pötsch, newly appointed as supervisory board chairman, issued a statement on Wednesday saying it would take time before Volkswagen could make public the findings of its internal inquiries. “We must overcome the current crisis,” he explained, “but we must also ensure that Volkswagen continues to grow.” That seems to miss the point that Volkswagen will neither overcome the crisis nor grow unless it can produce some credible answers and explanations in short order.

Even if they manage to fix millions of cars, VW executives will still face a monstrous challenge from lawsuits, potential prosecutions, lost sales and the blow to VW’s reputation for quality engineering. There is no defeat device to deflect the angry and urgent questions that lawmakers hurled at Mr. Horn. Apologizing is the easy part.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/opinion/vw-and-michael-horn-need-to-come-clean-now.html
post #748 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

... my 09 TDI died because of serpentine belt failure...
WTF!?!  Your car died because of a serpentine belt failure?  

BK

Yeah, when it failed it went left and dove underneath the time belt and knock the timing 1/2 a turn out. Well you know what happens then. It is known on the newsgroups and there was an aftermarket part to prevent it (which I just found out).
post #749 of 1234
And now the rest of the mice are running.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

There won't be any diesels soon. I wonder which five cars passed?
post #750 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

And now the rest of the mice are running.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

There won't be any diesels soon. I wonder which five cars passed?

According to the first reports on the VW, the BMW X5d (which uses the 3L 6-cyl diesel, also found in the 335d, sadly discontinued in the US) was the part of the original extensive road test and passed.  No information on the smaller BMW 2.0L diesel, which is in the 328d (current model). 

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