Originally Posted by eleeski "Not sure where the point comes that " they don't matter". "Certainly you must see that such a point must, in fact, exist. Whether that point is 10%, 1%, .1%, or some vanishingly small fraction can be debated. The severity of consequences should change that point as should the costs of reduction. Perhaps the smog improvements of the 15 years since the referenced 1999 EPA report should be considered as well."Judging by the tdiclub forum, a good percentage don't care about emissions. This is exactly why the Epa is not going to let the vehicles just go."I disagree with this. Emissions were a big part of why we got the cars. Overall emissions, not just NOX. If a reasonable fix is available, we will embrace it. If the fix comes at doggy performance, poor mileage and increased CO2 emissions, then there will be some resistance. I do hope that the EPA doesn't take out the anger at VW's cheating on well intentioned but duped consumers. Especially when LA's air is getting cleaner despite the cheating cars.Eric
Have you read the tdi forum?
No doubt that the posts are skewed to those who actually bother and a good percentage want their car's mileage and performance emissions be damned. Then comes the justification. Heavy diesel trucks, power plants, bull dozers, - all worse than my car. So why should I be punished? .
You engage in the same justification. "Especially when LA's air is getting cleaner despite the cheating cars." lol. Truly the height of justification. There are more cars on the road and they drive more miles than dcades ago. Just to stay equal they'd have to get cleaner and to get better they need to get a lot cleaner. Average life of vehicles is around 11 years. So they just don't disappear.
How about we took that attitude towards infectious diseases?
Oh wait, people are with vaccinations and look what's happening.
. If a reasonable fix is available, we will embrace it. If the fix comes at doggy performance, poor mileage and increased CO2 emissions, then there will be some resistance.
well there's the rub. Would people have even purchased these if performance was 10-15% less?
500,000 vehicles is not a small number. Never mind 11 million.
They are not "clean diesel". They could have been. VW chose to forgo $3-400 worth of emissions equipment to make them reach standards. Simply put, they are illegal. They don't meet standards and should never have been legal for sale in the US.
VW as a company is a mess in terms of management. That management led directly to this situation. It's also quite inefficient. VW has more workers than Toyota and GM - combined. Yet they only produced about 10% more cars than Toyota to get to #1.
Volkswagen Group 592,000
Toyota Motor Corp. 344,000
General Motors 216,000
We could easily say that inefficiency led to them cheating and creating illegal, non conforming vehicles so they could sell the cars at a market price. It's really too bad as they have something worth promoting.
It's funny that people are so concerned with CO2. It's not toxic nor a pollutant. We're exhaling it now. It's problem is it's greenhouse gas. Yet somehow it's worse than known carcinogens in diesel exhaust or NO2 which leads to low altitude ozone and creation of toxic particles.
The scientific evidence is clear: diesel exhaust is a complex mixture comprised of hazardous particles and vapors, some of which are known carcinogens and others probable carcinogens.
Diesel exposure poses a significant and avoidable increase in human health risks. Compelling evidence from dozens of well-designed studies supports the conclusion that diesel exhaust causes cancer. In addition, fine particles from diesel exhaust aggravate respiratory illnesses such as bronchitis, emphysema and asthma and are associated with premature deaths from cardio-pulmonary disorders.9
The evidence of health effects is derived from extensive studies of human workers as well as some studies in animals, and observations of various kinds of mutagenic activity in culture systems. Based on extensive evidence, 41 constituents of diesel exhaust have been listed by the State of California as Toxic Air Contaminants, as shown in Table 1. The only reasonable conclusion one can draw from the massive scientific evidence is that exposure to diesel exhaust significantly increases human health risks.
- National Resources Defence Council
-Yet you're more worried about CO2?
I think since your diesel is a project car it's a great opportunity to for your son to learn about diesels and emissions technology. It's a solvable problem. Fossil fuels remain a good means of powering transport for decades.Edited by Tog - 10/6/15 at 9:09am