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post #541 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

Thats kinda my point..how obtainable is that? Seriously? 


It's totally obtainable as long as you are willing to give up on some performance (gas) or range (electric).  Heck, this one gets infinity doesn't it?

 

 

 

100 miles per bronto burger!

post #542 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

Thats kinda my point..how obtainable is that? Seriously? 


It's not unless the government wants to start mandating what cars we can buy. As long as the pickup truck (fullsize no less) is the most popular vehicle in America it is not possible.

post #543 of 1234

Well I didn't know that 2016 average is supposed to be 34.5mpg? According to that article. I can't see how we're making that.

The most surprising thing about that 54.5mpg for 2025? It's "not controversial".

Quote:

“Customers want higher fuel efficiency in their cars and trucks, and GM is going to give it to them,” said Greg Martin, General Motors’ executive director for communications. “We expect the rules to be tough, but we have a strong history of innovation, and we’ll do our best to meet them.”

 

Phyllis Cuttino, director of the Pew Environment Group’s clean-energy program, said the fact that so many people now accept the idea of greater fuel efficiency does not lessen the rules’ “historic” importance.

 

“We’ve just come a long way in five years,” Cuttino said, noting that in 2007 lawmakers debated whether the U.S. fleet could average 30 mpg by 2025. “This gives me hope for energy policy in this country.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/autos-must-average-545-mpg-by-2025-new-epa-standards-are-expected-to-say/2012/08/28/2c47924a-f117-11e1-892d-bc92fee603a7_story.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by epic View Post
 
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

 

Maybe these engineers could come work on the Chevy Cruze?  the new Apple Car? or... the Patriots?

 

Is there something wrong with the Chevy Cruze - I mean besides being a Chevy Cruze?

No. The diesel gets good mileage apparently. Mr. Hackenburg could help though.

post #544 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 


It's totally obtainable as long as you are willing to give up on some performance (gas) or range (electric).  Heck, this one gets infinity doesn't it?

 

 

 

100 miles per bronto burger!


We can measure the electric by coal burned though, right?

post #545 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Maybe there was no whistle blowing from the other manufacturers because they were all doing it themselves and that would be telling on themselves. No rat is going to rat out another rat. 

Test any car at the ICCT standard. How many will show no deviation from shop test scores to high stress road scores?
post #546 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 


It's not unless the government wants to start mandating what cars we can buy. As long as the pickup truck (fullsize no less) is the most popular vehicle in America it is not possible.


That's kinda my point.  The Cayenne weighs 4700lbs more or less, has 550hp and it goes 0-60 in 4 seconds more or less.  Is this necessary?  Some people would say yes.  If everyone is forced to drive a 1.0l diesel, it becomes a bit less of an issue.  Is that possible?  I doubt it.

post #547 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

Thats kinda my point..how obtainable is that? Seriously? 


I think it's a gov't/political number.  I suspect there will be some "latitude" given by 2025.  New governments get into power..things change. 

post #548 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanoT View Post
 

 

Easy for you to say as there are no mountain passes in Toronto or anywhere else in Ontario.


Have you SEEN the Niagara Escarpment?!?!?!  :D

post #549 of 1234

Apparently those 54.5mpg figures are not what they seem. There's adjusted and unadjusted figures. It's really more like what we think of as 40mpg. Still, that's 15mpg more if we're at 25 now.

Because car makers get credits for doing things.

 
The largest credit--worth 4 to 5 mpg--is actually for the use of "climate-friendly" refrigerants in air-conditioning systems.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098068_lets-be-clear-real-2025-gas-mileage-goal-is-40-mpg--or-so--not-54-5-mpg

Carrot and stick I guess.

 

It's a pretty complicated system. You get credits for exceeding the fleet average and can transfer credits from previous years.

 

There's a review in June of 2016. Mfrs apparently think they will stick. Btw, this has been three years ago these were created.

post #550 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott43 View Post
 

That's kinda my point.  The Cayenne weighs 4700lbs more or less, has 550hp and it goes 0-60 in 4 seconds more or less.  Is this necessary?  Some people would say yes.  If everyone is forced to drive a 1.0l diesel, it becomes a bit less of an issue.  Is that possible?  I doubt it.

Porsche will be forced to make an electric car to reach Cafe standards. Oh wait, they are. Wonder why.

Maybe recycling parts gets credits too. I don't know. It's way complicated.

 

Maybe this is why Volkswagen made the XL1. nearly 300mpg. They get credits?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2540618/The-fuel-efficient-car-world-Volkswagen-XL1-does-300-MILES-gallon-looks-cool-too.html

 

The govt already mandates the kind of cars that are available. Airbags, seat belts, emissions, crash tests, etc etc.

Cars are way better than the late 70's and 80's. They're just kind of small though.

post #551 of 1234

From the Washington Post article linked to a few posts back:

 

"Caldwell also cautioned that the EPA uses a different method of calculating mileage for the window stickers that consumers see at an auto dealer, so the estimate consumers should expect to see on window stickers in 2025 will be closer to 36 mpg."

 

The biggest difference is that the EPA test numbers are reduced 20% to get the sticker numbers.  This was done a number of years ago because of complaints by consumers that they could never achieve the EPA numbers. 

post #552 of 1234
Interview with Daniel Carder of WVa Univ who did the testing. There's more on the tape then written there.
http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk/2015/09/23/44582/west-virginia-engineer-shares-how-team-discovered/

Testing done in spring/summer 2013. Report done in April 2014. Some contact by VW checking routes etc. Carder offered to do more testing. Pretty much ended there. Had no idea it would come to what's happened. Got a heads up last week from Epa or Carb people. Was in lab when story broke so mever heard it. Phone started going off ever since.

Doesn't get too much into the tech. Does say though that the systems are effective and uses example of heavy truck sytems,[scr], that are working. States that the catalysts need heat and the way you get that is usually more fuel in the combustion cylinder. [interesting that gasoline engines are opposite - lean is hot]. There are things you can do with timing etc. also. That's about all they get into on that front.

So presumably meeting the emissions would require more DEF squirted in exhaust and to make that work you'd need more fuel. So mileage would go down. I don't see torque going down. I'd think it might actually go up. But ...?

As for the LNT system in the Jetta again I'm at a loss. Seems to stick with it you'd need bigger trap catalyst and have to use more fuel to regenerate it. But it might then need more egr.. or?
post #553 of 1234
It's a conspiracy against me.

I wish we'd bought a Kia instead of the project Jetta. The "minor dents and scratches" of the secondary damage were from whatever crash destroyed the radiator and the entire front end hidden by the scratched but good looking bumper and the drywall screws holding things together. This is a bigger project than I figured on. And with the crash in Jetta resale value, a really bad investment. I hope that CA lets us register it when we finish.

The first parts order was canceled by the vendor. Hmmm. Hopefully the reorder will go through properly. The VW dealership was dead. At least every person there was happy to see us and to have a car in customer parking. Kinda eerie.

On a skiing note, my son who is driving this project might end up in Asia for the winter. Since he has already bought his season pass and if his luck on the Jetta carries over to the snow - Tahoe is destined for a great snow year (while he is away).

Eric
post #554 of 1234
post #555 of 1234
The Chronicle article on possible fixes.

http://flip.it/90Ejo
post #556 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by eleeski View Post

It's a conspiracy against me.

I wish we'd bought a Kia instead of the project Jetta. The "minor dents and scratches" of the secondary damage were from whatever crash destroyed the radiator and the entire front end hidden by the scratched but good looking bumper and the drywall screws holding things together. This is a bigger project than I figured on. And with the crash in Jetta resale value, a really bad investment. I hope that CA lets us register it when we finish.
Eric

Sorry to hear there's more damage than expected. I wouldn't worry too much about resale value. Things are likely to improve in the next year. As to the project, it's actually exciting times. A week ago it was just a Diesel Jetta. Now it's the center of the automotive world and a likely sea change in emissions legislation and enforcement. The importance of emissions and fuel economy are only going up. All sectors now- trucks and even heavy insustry are involved. China is probably going to adopt US emissions levels instead of Euro because their vehicle makeup, gas/diesel, is similar to the US.

So your son is right at the center of things.
post #557 of 1234

A day late and a dollar short...

 

 

 

EPA to change diesel tests to prevent VW-like cheating

 

Diesel ‘wasn’t the top priority for the EPA.’

 

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is planning wholesale reform of its procedure for testing diesel engines, following revelations that Volkswagen installed software in its cars that allowed it to fool regulators into thinking the vehicles were cleaner than they actually were, according to the Associated Press. Chris Grundler, head of the EPA’s office of transportation and air quality, told the news service that his agency would begin testing cars on the road in addition to the tests performed with cars on treadmills. Grundler told the AP that cars with diesel engines, which make up only 1% of the vehicles on U.S. roads, “wasn’t the top priority for the EPA.” “The agency did have on-road testing equipment — but it was assigned to monitor automaker gas mileage estimates and heavy-duty diesel trucks, where cheating had been uncovered in the past,” the report said. The EPA’s testing procedures have been criticized for being predictable and outdated, the AP said, potentially making it easier for VW to cheat. And it was researchers at West Virginia University—not the EPA—that uncovered the problem using on-road testing, the AP added. An announcement of the changes could come on Friday.

 

http://fortune.com/2015/09/25/volkswagen-scandal-epa/

post #558 of 1234
Quote:
A day late and a dollar short...
Oh they'll get their dollar. And the current situation basically makes it a perfect time to change the testing. Manfrs always complain about harder testing. Let's not forget that some in govt want to get rid of the EPA altogether.

Holy Cow.
We thought GM was bad! Management of VW is an insulated from the world soap opera. To some, VW was headed to a scandal and this is no surprise. Engineers have been dismissive of US regulations for years.

End of VW as we (haven't actually) known it? Would be a good thing apparently if you're a VW fan.
Ferdinand Piech got his 4th wife, a former kindergarden teacher, a spot on VW's board.

Problems at Volkswagen Start in the Boardroom
By James B Stewart, NY Times 9/24/15
Quote:
This week, the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung compared Volkswagen’s governance to that of North Korea, adding that its “autocratic leadership style has long been out of date.” It said “a functioning corporate governance is missing.”
Quote:
I spoke this week to a longtime former senior Volkswagen executive, who agreed that a scandal, especially one involving emissions, was all but inevitable at Volkswagen. He cited the company’s isolation, its clannish board and a deep-rooted hostility to environmental regulations among its engineers.

The former executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he now works at a competing global automaker, said that Wolfsburg, where Volkswagen is based in Lower Saxony and the city with the highest per capita income in Germany, is even more remote and isolated than Detroit was in its heyday. “The entire economy is automotive,” he said. “People have a completely uncritical view of cars and their impact on the environment because they all make a living from the industry.”
Quote:
“There’s an attitude among the German public that it’s very unfair for the U.S. to target the auto industry over emissions,” Professor Roth said. “If you have electric cars and a coal-fired plant producing the electricity, you gain nothing.”

The former Volkswagen executive said Volkswagen’s engineer-driven culture takes the notion even further. He said the engineers felt that the politicians were guilty of rank hypocrisy, especially in the United States, also grumbling that electric cars make no sense as long as power plants are burning fossil fuels.

“There’s an attitude of moral superiority there,” he said. “The engineers think they know best.”

Edited by Tog - 9/25/15 at 12:01pm
post #559 of 1234

I was reluctant to post this because stereo typing is wrong, but I can't help thinking that this whole mess came about because capable, efficient, and ARROGANT German engineers were so confident in their abilities that they thought the lowly US Government emissions testers would never be smart enough to uncover the VW diesel fraud.

 

The backlash against VW will be significant and might end up as an over reaction by EPA, lawyers, legislators, and former VW customers to the point of forcing VW to close it's Tennessee plant and abandon the North American market.

post #560 of 1234

Hyundai is recalling 500,000 Sonata's for full engine replacements and yet the story is barely news.  Complete exhaust systems are cheaper than engines, including the labor to swap.

 

Smog from the affected VW's is nothing compared with the unregulated toxic stew filling the atmosphere on the other side of the globe. I guess the betrayal is the tough part, and I don't even own one.

 

Typical Shanghai smog...

http://www.hugchina.com/china/stories/environment/heavy-smog-spreads-from-east-and-central-china-to-the-north-2013-12-07.html


Edited by Snowfan - 9/25/15 at 12:32pm
post #561 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post

Hyundai is recalling 500,000 Sonata's for full engine replacements and yet the story is barely news.  Complete exhaust systems are cheaper than engines, including the labor to swap.
wow!
That's almost as many as their North Koreanish counterpart VW. Perfect timing as there's a great distraction with the cheaters. I guess they'll be a big market in used Sonata engines.
post #562 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


wow!
That's almost as many as their North Koreanish counterpart VW. Perfect timing as there's a great distraction with the cheaters. I guess they'll be a big market in used Sonata engines.

 

They will probably melt down the bad engines and make more engines!

 

The issue is caused by insufficient cleansing of crankshafts after milling. From the Alabama plant.  Web folks are picking on the false southern hillbilly stereotype of the workers..it was NOT the workers fault but the specific process of milling combined with equipment unable to get all the filings out of oil passages. 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/25/hyundai-motor-recall-idUSL1N11V0S820150925

 

 

In further review it now looks like they will try to inspect rod and main bearings and replace engines with bearing wear out of spec.  Still quite a lot of work...maybe more than a swap. They are upgrading engine warranty to 10 years 120K mi. 

post #563 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

Isn't VW either state owned or have a family as a majority stake holder? 

20% owned by the State of Lower Saxony I believe Porsche owns 50% +  Well here it is as of 12/31/14

 

50.73%
20.00%
17.00%
12.30%

Porsche Automobil Holding SE, Stuttgart
State of Lower Saxony, Hanover
Qatar Holding
Others

post #564 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowfan View Post

The issue is caused by insufficient cleansing of crankshafts after milling. From the Alabama plant.  Web folks are picking on the false southern hillbilly stereotype of the workers..it was NOT the workers fault but the specific process of milling combined with equipment unable to get all the filings out of oil passages. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/25/hyundai-motor-recall-idUSL1N11V0S820150925


In further review it now looks like they will try to inspect rod and main bearings and replace engines with bearing wear out of spec.  Still quite a lot of work...maybe more than a swap. They are upgrading engine warranty to 10 years 120K mi. 

Ha. Yes blame a bad process on the workers. Esp after you let it go on 500,000 times.

I have a friend who's owned a Mercedes ML since the early 2000's. She's loved it. "Best built car I've ever owned". She won't sell it. Always talking about how great her German built car is.
Last year after another story I said to her son " I bet it was made in Alabama." so we went out, opened the driver's door and read the label. Alabama hillbillies.
post #565 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Ha. Yes blame a bad process on the workers. Esp after you let it go on 500,000 times.

I have a friend who's owned a Mercedes ML since the early 2000's. She's loved it. "Best built car I've ever owned". She won't sell it. Always talking about how great her German built car is.
Last year after another story I said to her son " I bet it was made in Alabama." so we went out, opened the driver's door and read the label. Alabama hillbillies.

 

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 95

post #566 of 1234

Them hillbillies build some mighty fast race cars.

 

On emissions test hacking: Back when the testing was first implemented, before computers were part of the car's hardware, some cars didn't run so hot when they were tuned to pass the emissions test. I new some guys who would drive to the test station for their annual test, hop out of the car, screwdriver in hand, and tweak the carb so the car would pass the test. Then, when the test was complete, while still in the testing station parking lot, hop out and tweak the carb back the way it was so that it would run right on the way home.

 

In truth, the regulations for fuel economy and NOx emissions are working at cross purposes with each other. The laws of chemistry don't work that way, so every engine built these days is a compromise.

 

The VW engineers built a computer that essentially does the same thing for computerized cars that my friends used to do with their screwdrivers on their pre-computer cars. They say the cheater code was only on the diesel engines, but I wonder about the gas engines, too, and if any other manufacturers are getting worried because they are doing something similar.

post #567 of 1234
Think of how far things have come. No black magic carbs, Now there's black magic boxes crammed full of wizards and skullduggery. With direct injection you can still add fuel after the valves close. There's now timing of fuel BeforeTDC/ AfterTDC. And the engine can call home.
post #568 of 1234
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrison Claystone View Post
 

Them hillbillies build some mighty fast race cars.

 

On emissions test hacking: Back when the testing was first implemented, before computers were part of the car's hardware, some cars didn't run so hot when they were tuned to pass the emissions test. I new some guys who would drive to the test station for their annual test, hop out of the car, screwdriver in hand, and tweak the carb so the car would pass the test. Then, when the test was complete, while still in the testing station parking lot, hop out and tweak the carb back the way it was so that it would run right on the way home.

 

In truth, the regulations for fuel economy and NOx emissions are working at cross purposes with each other. The laws of chemistry don't work that way, so every engine built these days is a compromise.

 

The VW engineers built a computer that essentially does the same thing for computerized cars that my friends used to do with their screwdrivers on their pre-computer cars. They say the cheater code was only on the diesel engines, but I wonder about the gas engines, too, and if any other manufacturers are getting worried because they are doing something similar.

I think this is why other manufacturers didn't call them out..not so much honor amongst thieves but no rat is going to rat out another rat. I do agree with some that feel that this might be the tip of the iceberg. 

post #569 of 1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

I think this is why other manufacturers didn't call them out..not so much honor amongst thieves but no rat is going to rat out another rat. I do agree with some that feel that this might be the tip of the iceberg. 


No doubt that there is some cheating going on across all vendors... But, the fact that VW diesels outperform the competitors by such a large margin makes me infer that they were doing it at a much higher level than the others.  You chose that vehicle because it outperformed the others dramatically.  Well, now you know why.  If the others are also cheating they aren't doing it nearly as effectively.

post #570 of 1234
The discrepency between stated emissions levels and real world on road in Europe has been discussed for some time. That's part of why Icct commissioned the US diesel study in 2013. To show it could be done because US standards are tougher on diesels than Europe.

Part of the issue is EU enforcement. I think it's pretty toothless and doesn't have the power of the Epa.

NOx is much harder to deal with for diesel cars. The US went the route of requiring the same standards for gasoline and diesel cars with the Tier 2 standard finalized in 2000.
It also addressed sulfur in fuels.

Tier 3 is coming in 2017. It will further lower emissions and be in synch with California Lev 3 standard.( Low emission vehicle). So manufrs will be able to sell the same vehicle in 50 states. Sulfur will be further lowered for gas and diesel fuels.
There's a phase in program for most of it and all sorts of credits. I think the tough vehicle standards start in 2020.

VW isn't meeting the current standards with diesels and adopted its position of defrauding the system instead of solving the problem. Will they be able to meet Tier 3 given new scrutiny of regulators.
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