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High Fluoro vs. Hydro-Carbon wax...

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

​Hi,

My daughter's ski coach recently advised me to not only use (high) fluoro wax all year long as it will dry out the base. Instead, I should use Hydro-Carbon wax as a regular wax for, say, training days.

 

I had been using racewax.com's hybrid race wax as my "everyday wax" so like to get some input from the Community if I had been damaging the base all along...

 

thanks!

post #2 of 15

Don't know if you're damaging the base, others would have more info on that, but you are throwing away a lot of money.

 

Low Flouro is fine and a good non Flouro wax is also fine for training.  There are conditions that Flouro's excel in and might shave a small amount of time off of the clock, but for the most part it's a lot of money for little benefit.  

post #3 of 15

Oh and also I hope you use a respirator while waxing if you're using Flouro waxes.  They're not good for you to inhale.  

 

I use this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009363G/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
 

​Hi,

My daughter's ski coach recently advised me to not only use (high) fluoro wax all year long as it will dry out the base. Instead, I should use Hydro-Carbon wax as a regular wax for, say, training days.

 

Have the bases been drying out? Probably not. Either way, I'd say it's a waste of money to use HF all of the time.

post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

 

Have the bases been drying out? Probably not. Either way, I'd say it's a waste of money to use HF all of the time.

 

I didn't notice the base drying out... re:waste - can't argue with that. Based on amount of wax I use, I could probably save ~$60 per season so will do that going forward. Was just lazy to keep all kinds of wax around.

post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
 

 

I didn't notice the base drying out... re:waste - can't argue with that. Based on amount of wax I use, I could probably save ~$60 per season so will do that going forward. Was just lazy to keep all kinds of wax around.

High Flouro wax is for wet/High HuMidity  Race conditions.

 

Personally I like Dominator All Temperature Zoom Race Wax for RACE DAYS. You can add a rub on Flouro overlay on race days if it is warranted. there is race Zoom New Snow and Old snow

 

And then there are All temperature Zoom, All Temp Graphite Zoom and And all Temp Hyper Zoom. Hydro Carbon, Graphite and Low Flouro respectively.  

 

These take all the guess work out of Temperature range. 

 

There base renews are excellent as are the Q Products which are Flouro overlays! 

 

http://www.dominatorwax.com/products

 

Dominator Tom Posts here so you can ask him any questions. 

 

My boys both raced for years and we used all Dominator Products and still do!


Edited by Atomicman - 4/1/15 at 8:43am
post #7 of 15

I'd second what Atomicman said and raise you this to clean the skis of fluoro as to let wax penetrate again.  I use this stuff to clean my skis instead of hot scraping,  Been very pleased with the results.

 

 


Edited by Jacques - 3/31/15 at 2:02pm
post #8 of 15

There is some data on the Dominator site in an article called Ski Wax Demystified that shows that, in some conditions, High Fluoro is faster (essentially high water content snow) and some conditions when it can be slower. A base prep wax with graphite is better for cleaning the fluoros out of the base than normal base preps or plain hot waxing. For real high fluoros, a respirator is definitely an excellent idea. I use one for waxing and scraping fluoros.

post #9 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsirin View Post
 

For real high fluoros, a respirator is definitely an excellent idea. I use one for waxing and scraping fluoros.

With the extreme heat needed when using fluoro powders, IMO, a good respirator is a must!

post #10 of 15

There are fluoros and there are fluoros.  Some perfluoro liquids are so safe that when oxygen is dissolved in them they are used as artificial blood, and divers have even experimented with breathing the liquid, with success.  At the other end of the scale are the toxic fluoros called PFCs. There are hydrophobic fluoros and surfactant fluoros.  Both have been used in ski waxes. In general it's best to play it safe and not inhale the fumes, but if your iron is smoking it's burning the stuff you paid good money for.  Turn down the heat.

 

No matter what fluoro you use, a ridiculously small amount has a significant effect on the ability of wax to shed water. From the point of view of a wax manufacturer, the premium charged for fluoro wax carries a lovely margin. Dupont sells this stuff to industrial users for about $25 per pound, and skiers apparently wind up paying about a buck a gram for fluoro stuff that may or may not be diluted in wax. At 453 grams per pound, you can calculate the profit.

 

There may also be some misconceptions about the term "hydrocarbon wax."  Every wax is, by definition, a hydrocarbon. Paraffin wax with no hardening or slickening agents whatsoever is a hydrocarbon wax. When you buy a "hydrocarbon wax," you're buying the base product.

post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Masia View Post
 

There are fluoros and there are fluoros.  Some perfluoro liquids are so safe that when oxygen is dissolved in them they are used as artificial blood, and divers have even experimented with breathing the liquid, with success.  At the other end of the scale are the toxic fluoros called PFCs. There are hydrophobic fluoros and surfactant fluoros.  Both have been used in ski waxes. In general it's best to play it safe and not inhale the fumes, but if your iron is smoking it's burning the stuff you paid good money for.  Turn down the heat.

 

No matter what fluoro you use, a ridiculously small amount has a significant effect on the ability of wax to shed water. From the point of view of a wax manufacturer, the premium charged for fluoro wax carries a lovely margin. Dupont sells this stuff to industrial users for about $25 per pound, and skiers apparently wind up paying about a buck a gram for fluoro stuff that may or may not be diluted in wax. At 453 grams per pound, you can calculate the profit.

 

There may also be some misconceptions about the term "hydrocarbon wax."  Every wax is, by definition, a hydrocarbon. Paraffin wax with no hardening or slickening agents whatsoever is a hydrocarbon wax. When you buy a "hydrocarbon wax," you're buying the base product.


Turn down the heat.  I will go for that and always do!  When I do apply flourocarbon waxes they are the softer waxes so one does not need too much heat.  I don't use the perfluoro's ever.  If I did it would be a non-iron overlay, but I don't race, so why would I.

When it gets really wet in the spring, I do use this.  It's a no iron overlay, but not the expensive ones.  Stuff works like a champ. 

 

post #12 of 15

HF usually only for days where snow is of a higher water content....other than that it's a waste of $$$.

 

To add, the HF benefit is limited to a short distance (something like less than 400m?) so not much use if using the same ski to inspect, do some free skiing warm-up, etc. and then race on.

Reason why the WC racers have a dedicated race ski prepped at the top that they don't even stand on until they are ready to get into the starting gate.

 

Further, the benefit of HF wax is also greatly decreased when the speed of the event decreases.  E.g. more benefit for DH/SG than SL.

 

I thought it the need to clean HF out by healthy amount of base hot scrapes was that the flouro gums up the base and makes it more difficult for HC base wax to penetrate.  Since you want to build up a good HC base than then add flouro, important to scrape the flouro out.

 

Flourowax IS more durable to abrasion than standard HC wax, so that's a benefit!

post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post
 

HF usually only for days where snow is of a higher water content....other than that it's a waste of $$$.

 

To add, the HF benefit is limited to a short distance (something like less than 400m?) so not much use if using the same ski to inspect, do some free skiing warm-up, etc. and then race on.

Reason why the WC racers have a dedicated race ski prepped at the top that they don't even stand on until they are ready to get into the starting gate.

 

Further, the benefit of HF wax is also greatly decreased when the speed of the event decreases.  E.g. more benefit for DH/SG than SL.

 

I thought it the need to clean HF out by healthy amount of base hot scrapes was that the flouro gums up the base and makes it more difficult for HC base wax to penetrate.  Since you want to build up a good HC base than then add flouro, important to scrape the flouro out.

 

Flourowax IS more durable to abrasion than standard HC wax, so that's a benefit!


There is some truth to what you say, but as far as HF lasting only 400m, I think you are thinking about pure fluoro overlays.

 

As far as cleaning off fluoros I have found Swix Glide Wax Cleaner to be most effective.   You might want to check it out.  It may be better than or equal to any hot scraping.  If you hot scrape to clean fluoros then a graphite wax works best.  It's all black so you need to forget about seeing clean wax when you clean!

 

Here you go.

 

post #14 of 15

Perhaps, I know pure fluoro overlays don't last long, but was of the understanding the fluoro portion of a HF wax held the same/similar fate as far as duration goes given it's essentially sits on top of the HC portion of the wax after application (e.g. fluoro and HC don't like eachother and the fluoro portion sits on top of the base with the HC underneath).

 

The fluoro portion of a HF wax and the fluoro portion of the overlay have the same/similiar composition and as such makes sense to have the similar fate.  Add the weak bond between the fluoro chains and HC chains (also why they suggest a fluoro overlay works better when layered onto a HF application vs a HC one).

 

Of course I could be mistaken, this is more theory to me as the differences (outside of very damp conditions and durability) are not significantly noticeable to myself and my little racer.  Brushing however has a significant impact and where I've been instructed to spend more of my energy.

post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbear View Post
 

Perhaps, I know pure fluoro overlays don't last long, but was of the understanding the fluoro portion of a HF wax held the same/similar fate as far as duration goes given it's essentially sits on top of the HC portion of the wax after application (e.g. fluoro and HC don't like eachother and the fluoro portion sits on top of the base with the HC underneath).

 

The fluoro portion of a HF wax and the fluoro portion of the overlay have the same/similiar composition and as such makes sense to have the similar fate.  Add the weak bond between the fluoro chains and HC chains (also why they suggest a fluoro overlay works better when layered onto a HF application vs a HC one).

 

Of course I could be mistaken, this is more theory to me as the differences (outside of very damp conditions and durability) are not significantly noticeable to myself and my little racer.  Brushing however has a significant impact and where I've been instructed to spend more of my energy.


That all sounds correct to me.  I just believe that Fluorocarbon waxes can last longer then 400m.  Be good!

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