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Skiing The Fast Line Slow - Page 8

post #211 of 233
I like the Blake video a lot too. The demonstration of going really slow with big skid or steering angles looks wrong to me, though. I don't think a skier who needs to go slower would be able to pull it off that way.
post #212 of 233
He got fed up with all the BS certain tools continually slung at him, and eventually stopped coming here. Real shame.
Some people[/URL][/B] are just born to spout, I guess.
[/quote]

Yup, he is not alone in having left this site though. Interestingly enough nothing has been done to curb that sort of sniping. It suggests to me the site encourages that sort of thing.
post #213 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

OMG, you guys!

I like having your expert input to help enhance my ski life. This is the first or second most valuable forum on the site. Or could be, anyway. And you're still down here snapping towels at each other. Sheesh.

I like the Liam direction and will be following that piece.

Ditto. Tritto?
post #214 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

He got fed up with all the BS certain tools continually slung at him, and eventually stopped coming here. Real shame.
Some people[/URL][/B] are just born to spout, I guess.

Yup, he is not alone in having left this site though. Interestingly enough nothing has been done to curb that sort of sniping. It suggests to me the site encourages that sort of thing.[/quote]

No one always agrees with the mods on here but I think the general thought is they do a good, consistent job keeping things on track. As long as the conversation relates to the topic and is not overly personal they allow it to get pretty lively and passionate, as we've seen here. When the personal "sniping" starts going on and on they step in, as we've also seen here on this thread.

The real issues persist when those involved can't let go imo.
post #215 of 233
Blake show what is possible and for some that may seem too advanced. But it certainly shows what is just over the horizon for them. IMO that is the value of such things, it reminds all of us there is so much out there and how many different sources can arrive at similar conclusions.
post #216 of 233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

I like the Blake video a lot too. The demonstration of going really slow with big skid or steering angles looks wrong to me, though. I don't think a skier who needs to go slower would be able to pull it off that way.

If you learn to do it outside the bumps, on friendly terrain, it will be much easier to do while in the bumps.  As with all things learned, learn to walk before you run.  

post #217 of 233
Thread Starter 

I'll add here, that skid angle for speed control can be used anywhere on the mountain.  The one situation it becomes less effective, though, is in deep, heavy snow.  In deep snow the range of possible skid anglse you can use drops.  Small skid angles can still be used, but as they get bigger you end up pushing too much snow.  In that situation turn shape becomes a more effective speed control tool.  

post #218 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

He does indeed! IMHO he's one of the best all around skiers I've ever seen, and a damn nice guy to boot! Check out this one and some of his other vids...

 

He got fed up with all the BS certain tools continually slung at him, and eventually stopped coming here. Real shame.

 

Yes, I really like watching this guy ski. He is not only very good but he does a great job in describing his demos. I think it also hammered in for me what Rick is talking about regarding the thread title.

 

I can see why Blake might get resistance from ski pros regarding his philosophy on learning. Although, I have to say that I think it is a good point regarding "skiing natural" and I don't think it takes away the value of a good instructor or coach.

 

I am also excited about getting my hands on that USSA doc and a thanks to who posted it. This forum really is a treasure trove of great info. The arguments are starting to seem like a small price to pay to access everything else.

post #219 of 233

Rich, it's good to have you here as well.

 

Sorry, the devil made me say that. :D

post #220 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

Rich, it's good to have you here as well.

 

Sorry, the devil made me say that. :D

Thank you and right back atcha.

 

I think you mean to say that "I" made you do that. 

post #221 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

He got fed up with all the BS certain tools continually slung at him, and eventually stopped coming here. Real shame.
Some people[/URL][/B] are just born to spout, I guess.
[/quote]

Yup, he is not alone in having left this site though. Interestingly enough nothing has been done to curb that sort of sniping. It suggests to me the site encourages that sort of thing.

Encouraging sniping would be like "Come on people, tell us what you really think!"

 

I'm going to ask one more time because it's still Easter. Please chill. There are some good posts being made in this thread. I really don't want to lock it. I also don't want portion out blame 37% to one, 23% to another etc. If I declare it's nobody's fault can we all go back to being friends?

post #222 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post

If you learn to do it outside the bumps, on friendly terrain, it will be much easier to do while in the bumps.  As with all things learned, learn to walk before you run.  

 






MDF and Rick and at the heart of the question that I have. See, the idea of fast line slow in critical terrain has great appeal to me. I watch guys like Blake, and I say, yeah, awesome, but I don't think I can ever get to that level of bump skiing (fast line Fast), but when I see his 'slower' zipper line, I think, that looks great, I'd like to do it and it seems in my learning wheel house.

BUT, what are the movements and techniques? MDF suggests what I fear might be true: The fast line slow isn't a precursor to his higher end, fast line fast skiing, but actually derived from it, meaning you'd need to be able to rip the zipper line, or at least own these movements to ski the same line smooth and slower.

Or, is it as Rick suggests, are these 'fast line slow' movements another set of technical skills that can be practiced in non-critical terrain and slowly moved up the terrain ladder? I hope it's the latter, but I fear it might be the former.

I usually buy the walk before run metaphor, but is this more master running before you can really strut?
post #223 of 233
The guy in the mogul video is an awesome skier. In one single longish video, he did everything from tight fast zipper line to GS turns through a bump field absorbing everything in his path and every example in between he could think of. I think he was not really trying to teach a particular technique but rather make a point that to ski the bumps well you need to get out there and become very versatile, able to make almost any turn shape, at any speed and any line through the bumps. That's what i got out of it anyway.

The demo where he went in the tightest line possible but very slowly I would call very pivoty and then skidded. I would not call those "steered". There is also a tail push aspect to them, which is not neccessarily bad in this case. The interesting thing about bumps is the angle of the slope itself is changing so much under the skis as the skier crests one bump and descends the shoulder of it. Even if the skis are pointing nearly straight down the overall fall line. The mere fact the shoulder of the bump now has a mini fall line facing to the side of the run means the snow has in effect put the skier into a position of traversing around the side of the bump if you will. With speed and edge engagement that is what they will do, but slow it down enough and slip the edges enough and you will basically side slip down the side of the bump. They are like linked hockey slides except not nearly as much pivoting by the skier is required as compared to groomed terrain because the aspect of the snow surface itself essentially pivots under the ski.

From the angle of the camera it may look like the "fast line" but if you were to take that 3D bump field with side angle aspects and fold everything up to a flat surface, the actual line the skis are taking would not be that direct after all. but we can say that the hockey slide tactic in general is a very direct line approach, one I would not call "steered". A more steered approach will be on the slow line, but faster. But in the bumps due to the aspect changing under the feet, that slow line at speed will appear to the camera as very direct.

What i do like about that exercise is that he shows how to find that shoulder of the bump and engage the edges there for speed control, albeit highly pivoty and braked, but there rather then waiting for the top of the next bump to engage and brake. He's also doing a bit of a tail push in his effort to exaggerate up down pumping at slow speed, which will matter more when he speeds up. That slow speed tail push combined with extra pivoting at the top and slow enough speed results in the skis skidding a lot down the shoulder of each bump, like a linked hockey slide which includes a tail push in the 3Dness of it all. But the important thing is finding that shoulder and engaging the edges there. Later with speed it will become less pivoty, less tail pushy, more carved, but that same part of the bump is used for engagement in a more steered fashion, but ironically due to the changing 3D slope aspect factor, the faster steered carved line will appear more direct to the camera even though it's actually more like the slow line fast across the sides of the bumps
post #224 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

 

Yes, Liam, Blake is showing a good example of what I'm referring to when I talk about skiing the fast line slow.  Same exact line, but because you introduces more skid angle (smear) into his turns he creates more friction and his speed drops in comparison to his fast line fast version.   Very good find, Liam.  This video provides a nice visual comparison.

 

 

 

Exactly.  Fast line slow provides the option of skiing an aggressive line at a conservative speed.  Comes in handy quite often.

To me the big differences are turn shape and amount of turn finish.  Fastest speed:  very unfinished turns and he comes pretty much straight down the hill, hence the term "zipperline"   Middle speed: still one turn per mogul, but far more finish to his turns, and he, the skier moves more left to right compared to the zipperline.  Slowest is the "pick a turn size and overlay that on a mogul field"  (and he picked a medium to large radius)  This technique means different parts of the turn (initiation, shaping, finish) occur at different parts of the mogul (shoulder, through, top, backside)

 

I would not quite agree that all three show the same line.

 

All that said, I still see all of this as slow line fast - he is choosing the line he wants to ski and skiing it offensively, NOT defensively.  The concept relates to skier and intent, not to absolute speed or terrain.

post #225 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
 

I'll add here, that skid angle for speed control can be used anywhere on the mountain.  The one situation it becomes less effective, though, is in deep, heavy snow.  In deep snow the range of possible skid anglse you can use drops.  Small skid angles can still be used, but as they get bigger you end up pushing too much snow.  In that situation turn shape becomes a more effective speed control tool.  

 

Dont forget that you can always go up. Jump your turns. Or part of the turns. This is a technique I resort to very often when snow conditions are getting bad and its steep. It gives me the possibilitie to turn tight. Just like making a short turn firm snow.

post #226 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

The guy in the mogul video is an awesome skier. In one single longish video, he did everything from tight fast zipper line to GS turns through a bump field absorbing everything in his path and every example in between he could think of. I think he was not really trying to teach a particular technique but rather make a point that to ski the bumps well you need to get out there and become very versatile, able to make almost any turn shape, at any speed and any line through the bumps. That's what i got out of it anyway.

The demo where he went in the tightest line possible but very slowly I would call very pivoty and then skidded. I would not call those "steered". There is also a tail push aspect to them, which is not neccessarily bad in this case. The interesting thing about bumps is the angle of the slope itself is changing so much under the skis as the skier crests one bump and descends the shoulder of it. Even if the skis are pointing nearly straight down the overall fall line. The mere fact the shoulder of the bump now has a mini fall line facing to the side of the run means the snow has in effect put the skier into a position of traversing around the side of the bump if you will. With speed and edge engagement that is what they will do, but slow it down enough and slip the edges enough and you will basically side slip down the side of the bump. They are like linked hockey slides except not nearly as much pivoting by the skier is required as compared to groomed terrain because the aspect of the snow surface itself essentially pivots under the ski.

From the angle of the camera it may look like the "fast line" but if you were to take that 3D bump field with side angle aspects and fold everything up to a flat surface, the actual line the skis are taking would not be that direct after all. but we can say that the hockey slide tactic in general is a very direct line approach, one I would not call "steered". A more steered approach will be on the slow line, but faster. But in the bumps due to the aspect changing under the feet, that slow line at speed will appear to the camera as very direct.

What i do like about that exercise is that he shows how to find that shoulder of the bump and engage the edges there for speed control, albeit highly pivoty and braked, but there rather then waiting for the top of the next bump to engage and brake. He's also doing a bit of a tail push in his effort to exaggerate up down pumping at slow speed, which will matter more when he speeds up. That slow speed tail push combined with extra pivoting at the top and slow enough speed results in the skis skidding a lot down the shoulder of each bump, like a linked hockey slide which includes a tail push in the 3Dness of it all. But the important thing is finding that shoulder and engaging the edges there. Later with speed it will become less pivoty, less tail pushy, more carved, but that same part of the bump is used for engagement in a more steered fashion, but ironically due to the changing 3D slope aspect factor, the faster steered carved line will appear more direct to the camera even though it's actually more like the slow line fast across the sides of the bumps

 

Good info here. Its indeed 3D. Folks, bumps are there to help you. Not to ruin your day. And skiing bumps an alternative way can indeed turn an optional scary high impact and risky FLS zipper line blast into a safe enjoyable SLF type descent. Now we are getting into line selection in bumps but if you have not been discussing that earlier in this thread then its worth mentioning. Some call it the techical line but its basicly just avoiding the ruts, turning where there is snow and making full use of flexion and extension.

post #227 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

To me the big differences are turn shape and amount of turn finish.  Fastest speed:  very unfinished turns and he comes pretty much straight down the hill, hence the term "zipperline"   Middle speed: still one turn per mogul, but far more finish to his turns, and he, the skier moves more left to right compared to the zipperline.  Slowest is the "pick a turn size and overlay that on a mogul field"  (and he picked a medium to large radius)  This technique means different parts of the turn (initiation, shaping, finish) occur at different parts of the mogul (shoulder, through, top, backside)

 

I would not quite agree that all three show the same line.

 

All that said, I still see all of this as slow line fast - he is choosing the line he wants to ski and skiing it offensively, NOT defensively.  The concept relates to skier and intent, not to absolute speed or terrain.

 

This is correct!

 

Note that skiing in the fast line often requires balls and guts and is highly offensive. Its just that the skis are being used defensively, to brake and controll speed.

post #228 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Good info here. Its indeed 3D. Folks, bumps are there to help you. Not to ruin your day. And skiing bumps an alternative way can indeed turn an optional scary high impact and risky FLS zipper line blast into a safe enjoyable SLF type descent. Now we are getting into line selection in bumps but if you have not been discussing that earlier in this thread then its worth mentioning. Some call it the techical line but its basicly just avoiding the ruts, turning where there is snow and making full use of flexion and extension.

 

BTS does a good job of bringing out the three dimensional aspects of skiing bumps and separating lateral travel from vertical travel. The better you can manage the vertical line with appropriately pumping knees, the more success you will have applying the appropriate amount of skidding, steering, schmearing (whatever you want to call it) with which to ski the fast line slowly. A difficult aspect of learning to ski the fast line slow is that just about anyone who can demonstrate it well has likely learned to ski the fast line fast already. If that makes any sense ...


Referencing 3D reminds me of the staircase analogy. I’m sure many/most have heard this in one form or another. Think of the zipper line as a staircase and think of each turn you make on the zipperline as a step taken down a staircase. We are all experts at walking down stairs with effective efficiency. Notice how you manage the path of your CoM ridding straight and non-undulating over the vertical motion made by your feet and knees on your way down the staircase. Some similarity in biomechanics are in evidence here. Feel how each step taken downwards is a balanced blend of both resisting gravity with muscle retraction and giving in to gravity through the flexing of ankle, knee and hip joints. The point is to look for the “feel”. The next time you are walking down a staircase, think about your Com and the zipperline. The next time you are dropping down the zipperline, think about your CoM and the staircase.

post #229 of 233

re: staircase analogy is not "just" an analogy.

 

post #230 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

re: staircase analogy may not be "just" an analogy.

 

 I have never seen mogul dirt skiing like that. Very cool. No doubt that guy rips in bumps!

post #231 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
....
I have never seen mogul dirt skiing like that. Very cool. No doubt that guy rips in bumps!


It's Jonny Moseley.  Look him up.

post #232 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 


It's Jonny Moseley.  Look him up.

Oh, didn't see the name. I've heard of that guy once or twice. ;)  Good posting!

post #233 of 233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Dont forget that you can always go up. Jump your turns. Or part of the turns. This is a technique I resort to very often when snow conditions are getting bad and its steep. It gives me the possibilitie to turn tight. Just like making a short turn firm snow.

Yes, good addition, tdk.

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