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MA : Unsuspecting 12 year old cruising - no idea Dad grabbed a few clicks/frames on Iphone - Page 2

post #31 of 45

Kid owns the groomers; he rips.

 

Park n' riding like that can be addictive. There's rhythm, a state of flow. However, when the terrain steepens, that style of skiing is limiting. The state of flow is broken; it's interrupted. It's evident in the 11-year old video: he may have linked just 3 turns on the steeps. On steep slopes, he's merely surviving: traversing the slope, picking spots where he can execute those wider-radius turns. Kid should learn how to make short and medium-radius turns. General comment/ reinforcing what everyone else said.

 

Also, it's pretty cool to have a Dad as supportive and enthusiastic as you seem. I can definitely sense that you guys have a good relationship on the slopes. Mixing coaching with personal relationships can be toxic; you can usually smell it a mile away. Not a whiff of that from you guys. All I feel coming from you is pride and joy. It's awesome. I'm happy you guys can share your love for skiing like that.

post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 

Esef : He is the one who told his Dad who had every bad habit in the world when he was all of five years old : "Dad, Skiing is good for your soul" a couple of weeks later, Dad tried on skis and has not looked back ! Touching heaven is what I call it, when I am about to begin a run on crisp cold morning, with nothing but quiet, and the rhythm begins, the blades scraping the only sound and the mist of one's breath - a sublime, and actually divine experience!

 

We made this 3 min clip and it's all slo-mo, it's from last year, but it's half-pipe, giant jumps and then just grooving in Snowmass, last day of skiing in 2014, April 20 I think it was or April 19. This was all part of our last run, down the terrain park, up to the top, traverse over the Cirque and then down the other side. It does have him making 'shorter turns' - he is a significantly better skier this year, and our trip to Snowmass and skiing with folks there had something to do with it for sure, young lady instructor Emilie from New Zealand (ex WC circuit) skied with the kids at his level, she was training a New Zealand kid who skis almost 12 months of the year, or 8 months at least, down under and in the US..he had a great time with them; and Bob Barnes offered him some key very subtle suggestions and he uses those every time he puts on his boards to rid himself of childhood bad ski habits! ..anyway, this is different type of skiing, terrain is different, and you can see him skiing differently..it's just for fun..pure viewing pleasure for us and anyone else..

This was posted in our TR I think, I forget, but there is a longer version with a lot more..but this suffices..kids are a trip! 

 


Edited by dustyfog - 3/28/15 at 12:31am
post #33 of 45
do you use a hand held camera or is that some kind of go pro ?
post #34 of 45
Thread Starter 

Quick responses:

  1. Raz: 3 min film in park and chill groove is on an Iphone 5 - held in Dad's hand 
  2. Normal films are GoPro chest harness or Iphone 5 in hand - original MA clip on Iphone 5 Dad sneaking in the clip and stationary on the side of the slope
  3. In MA, the comments have been very detailed and the effort is appreciated but I will differ on two things, and in advance, let's just say it is my opinion on both, but it's a pretty experienced one - having in 8 years traveled quite a bit skiing:
  • Klaus Mair, just some totally personal observations so we can agree to disagree in Advance - just one person's suitably humble opinion: is probably the best skier we have ever skied with - except one, and that is Patrick Ortlieb, who was the Olympic Gold medalist in the Downhill in 1992, World Champion in the Downhill in 1996. Klaus' YouTube video clip is the most downloaded video clip in the history of YouTube ski instruction videos - so the market-place has spoken too, but that is perhaps more about ease in delivery, communication style, exposition and video creation which is a hit. Klaus today is a senior instructor in Zurs, Austria, in our winter, was a legend in Mammoth when he was stateside, is the Director of the Ski School in Treble Cone, NZ in our summer, where he trains and trains with many current and future FIS circuit racers : WC and future Olympians. Just an FYI. Patrick Ortlieb I believe still holds the record time for the Weisse Ring race in Lech-Zurs but my info could be dated - it was current till 2011 I think!
  • And we have skied with some awesome coaches, some of whom are friends now, so it's nothing personal, Jim Forster (Snowbasin), Bob Barnes (Aspen-Highlands), Denis Ebacher (Whistler-Blackcomb), Tom Cadora (Alta) to name a few were too damn good, for terrain, teaching how to handle spine-chilling steeps and all kinds of condition. And many saw things others did not spot like George Perry (Snowmass) - salty dude, but what tremendous insight, very subtle and keen observations. Denis was too good, it takes special skill to bring down this old guy frozen in absolute terror when he looked over the Sapphire Chutes, never seen anything so steep, way, way steeper than Highland Bowl ! Denis brought me down, young lad there was down (he was 9 years old, and it's about 800 to 1200 ft of absolute vertical..exposure not as scary as False Face but longer steeps and for me, facing certain death ! or so I thought till Denis guided me down, one step turn at a time!) for a while wondering what the heck is slowing his old man ! He yelled at Dad with a laugh when Dad survived that experience.
  • And I will say it, some of the best instructors are NOT the best skiers - just like in any sport, or in academics - the geniuses are often lousy teachers and great teachers are more often than not pretty ordinary in terms of intellectual prowess.
  • Finally this stuff about 'survival skiing' : here are some facts: Arrival Fri night Aspen from Manhattan, climb/hike to Highland bowl in East Coast Ice conditions Saturday morning around noon, on hands and knees in one part, as it was so icy and narrow in parts, totally wiped out on top, kid was prone as you saw, then ski down began with the gentlest gentleman Bob Barnes, tentatively and gingerly as it was Rock Hard on top, you can see it, then ice pebbles and hard ice snow all the way down. It was "G8" so average incline about 37 degrees (if memory serves me right) and over 40 degrees in parts. Boy and Dad did not know the terrain and often you can see boy was leading. So in control, careful, feeling things out, there was no linking turns jamming it, until halfway down as confidence built - then you can see him getting his mojo back. Dad actually fell where he skied with total confidence and carefully - and if Dad had not self-arrested, outcome could have been very, very adverse. So that skiing on Highland Bowl showed incredible skiing skill. That is not survival skiing - that is skiing what the terrain has dealt you and learning about it. I'd like to see someone fly down linking turns on that Iced terrain, which incredibly steep, for a serious amount of vertical since it sure did not happen that day, and there were Aspen diehards/veterans up there. All skied it carefully, sliding often shedding speed, and there were carve-o-ramas at all, we saw NO ONE bombing, Forget it is more like it.
  • And Bob who probably skis that terrain every day , several times a day, also took it carefully, . Only time I have seen folks jamming it there on film naturally, is on powder days and that is a different cup of tea altogether. So while this might read as defensive, but to this Dad, the boy's performance on that terrain surpassed any grooving on groomers, negotiating gates etc., anything I have seen him do. That was endurance (the climb, the altitude), the fortitude, and then the comeback - grooving in the steepest part as oxygen resupplied and terrain familiarity builds, that to me was his greatest ski moment and thankfully Bob Barnes recorded it for our personal posterity (Shared here for fun and good cheer) He did not 'survive' Highland Bowl, he skied like a true ski mountaineer in conditions most people avoided going up. We know, we asked a few locals, they warned us off it, but Bob was willing and so was the young man, and Dad made the mistake of not recalling the old ski adage : ' The most dangerous phrase in skiing "Follow me Dad" ' !:eek
  • Jim Forster (4ster here) once said something to us in 2010, deeply insightful and we keep it in mind everyday "The mark of a great skier is one who has a constant rate of descent regardless of the terrain" That is wisdom - control is everything. :cool
  • And by the way, in gates, there are kids here in the North-East who are scary-good - and the fact that he is working hard to try to match them and doing it while having fun is good enough for this Dad who suffers from bowed-legs, zero ski-DNA (genetic origins!), and terminal case of intermediat-itis. The racing kids who are locals blow my mind often ! The speed, the power, the fearlessness, and the aggression of some, and of course, the grace of the elite few.

 

Anyway, I thank you all, I have the suggestions, about boots, about weight transfer, about helping him get forward, refining timing of pressure on outside ski, getting on edges earlier etc.

 

Another great thing about skiing - it generates good will amongst people...it just does... well, most of the time.


Edited by dustyfog - 3/28/15 at 10:45pm
post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post

[*] Jim Forster (4ster here) once said something to us in 2010, deeply insightful and we keep it in mind everyday "The mark of a great skier is one who has a constant rate of descent regardless of the terrain" That is wisdom - control is everything. 

I like that.

Just for the record, I do like the way he skiis and his attitude. He skis very well for his age... I think we tend to get carried away with critiquing and forget to acknowledge the positives:)

That said, he is at an age where learning the proper movement patterns is critical, to not limit his development as a great skier... Make sure he is set for next season in a good racing program - which looks like he is, so all good smile.gif
post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post

 

So in control, careful, feeling things out, there was no linking turns jamming it, until halfway down as confidence built - then you can see him getting his mojo back. Dad actually fell where he skied with total confidence and carefully - and if Dad had not self-arrested, outcome could have been very, very adverse. So I am sorry, I thought that skiing on Highland Bowl showed incredible skiing skill. That is not survival skiing - that is skiing what the terrain has dealt you and learning about it.
...
So while this might read as defensive, ... He did not 'survive' Highland Bowl, he skied like a true ski mountaineer in conditions most people avoided going up. 

 

Come on, surely even as the dad you can tell that you're watching through dad-goggles. I honestly hope/expect he looks back at that video in 3-5 years and cringes, as most of us do, at our videos from early in our skiing progressions. With some good coaching, he'll get a lot better. 

post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

Come on, surely even as the dad you can tell that you're watching through dad-goggles. I honestly hope/expect he looks back at that video in 3-5 years and cringes, as most of us do, at our videos from early in our skiing progressions. With some good coaching, he'll get a lot better. 

Sometimes is seems that too large a portion of the job coaching kids that age is managing parent's sometimes unique expectations (not saying this is the case here and just a crossing point of interest) rather than the youth racer themselves. Requires a slick and ready tongue. Most parents soon become aware/self aware of this tendency after signing their kids up and mingling with the other parents.

post #38 of 45
Thread Starter 


Someone was kind enough to take these pics and send them to us.., for those who know this is Blandford...oldest ski club in or something like that..is the claim..no argument from me, the locals run it, and it is the epitome of efficiency and tech savvy management..very cool place ...  enjoy the pics - skiing is pretty much done in this area though mountains still open ..

 

 

 

 

post #39 of 45

Not bad for a U12 and it is only 3 moments in time, but given his overall skiing, If that was towards mid or end of season, he'll need better coaching, after you fix his boots... there is not even a hint of separation...

 

Cheers

post #40 of 45
Thread Starter 

Raz: you made this Dad grin...he is known for his effortless skiing amongst his compadres and coaches, as I said he is not a b-lls-to-the-w-all type, some of his pals are hard core, he is Mr Cool Ski - Chilling - I am grinning thinking about his totally relaxed attitude, it's a trip ; clearly lots of room for improvement no question, herein I took the risk (and clearly my responsibility) of asking for an MA since it's not always pleasant clearly, and often the advice is what it is, it is free and folks are sitting on a terminal - it happens on every blog without exception. Just for us, it's all about a desire to ski for fun, and take on more and more interesting terrain - rest comes as it may, no big deal. He does this 'for love of the game', nothing else, ... I listen to him always.

 

And and it ain't his coaches, they are awesome very hard-working women and guys, very capable , and parents appreciate their efforts very much ! There are skiers on this small but gnarly (it is known for it) mountain in NY-Mass who are #1 & #3 (two girls) and #6 (one guy) at the National level in the U16 level in 2015; but I am not sure exactly how that works etc. but the coaches are cool, no complaints, this was just sitting at home and reminiscing about the season and actually sharing the JOY that is skiing of our kids and getting some advice at the same time.

 

..this was spring 2014, an old pic, again sent to us courtesy some friends...just  you made me laugh, separation huh....you have a fine summer with your kids Raz - you have a nice blog, like it.

post #41 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustyfog View Post
 

hey - nice photo. I assumed he can ski like that from what you posted so far Thumbs Up

 

... that's angulation, and plenty of, which is awesome indeed :). It is important but the specific meaning of separation I was thinking of was more directional: separate the "direction" or "rotation" of the upper body from the lower body. If you look at this photo again, his shoulders still point to where the skis are pointing... i.e. he's "square" to the skis as opposed to counter-rotated. Lacking this movement is associated with that excessive break forward at the hips that I saw in those GS photos above.

 

If you look at the thread with bad habits and solutions http://www.epicski.com/t/133360/pervasive-problems-solutions that's number 2 - skiing square. I know that some USSA coaches are insisting on skiing more "square" especially in GS... figured he may have had one of those coaches :)

 

cheers,

raz

 

p.s. enjoy a great summer too - ping us with updates next season if you feel like! ...any coach would love to get to work with kids like your son.

post #42 of 45
Thread Starter 

Talking of memories, and evolution of skiing, and seeing how kids grow up..after the Double Diamonds of upstate NY and Mass. for those who know like Catapult at Catamount, K-27 Upper and Lower at Hunter, Jericho at Jiminy which had been skied often enough by the typically cool-ski-chillaxer - the first two always tricky, and in icy moguled conditions always dangerous, and steep, I found these two ridiculously funny clips, (to me, but I think anyone who watches will recall their kids or themselves at some point!).

This came up as the other day some of his friends were in Honeycomb Canyon, Solitude in pretty tough East coast icy-spring conditions a week or two ago. The kids are awesome skiers, and parents are top gun skiers,

 

These clips are when the young man is over 6 years but not yet 7 and the joy of doing a genuine off-piste double diamond - no explanation needed, he and I laughed a lot as did our pals, .. .for those who know, it is a section of the Navarone trail, marked double-diamond, coming off the ridge, I thought very hairy steep tree trail, into Honeycomb Canyon, I was not there, wisely avoided it - but his ski instructor, Bridger, great kid, a wide receiver for the Univ of Utah, recorded it for posterity - if you like to see kids skiing gnarly terrain and their subsequent joys - watch it, huge powder day, it's kids enjoyment...as you can tell ski-snow-withdrawals symptoms setting in over the Dad :(

 

1.  6 year old's 18 seconds on Navarone with the priceless ending:

 

2. And now the elation on the lift ride up..6 second proclamation on the lift:

 

"For love of the game" and indeed skiing is good for the soul was his dry observation couple of years earlier

post #43 of 45
I really enjoyed watching your son ski, and I think he has a huge upside skiing as well as he already does. Enjoy all this as I am sure you are and acknowledge the years go by way too quickly when the kids are growing up. When I was 12 I think I was still crossing my tips!

Is that even an issue anymore.? I don't think I have heard anybody mention tip crossing in the last 15 years or more.
post #44 of 45
Thread Starter 

As this is MA : Movement Analysis and many Canadians have analyzed target skier - 12 year old...

so fittingly here is a 5 YEAR OLD (the skier in question 7 years ago, April 2008) on a Canadian Slope (somewhere on Lookout Mountain Sunshine Village, Alberta) providing his Movement Analysis of his Ski Buddy - the interviewer soliciting the Movement Analysis is 'Ski  World Traveler' Adrian Seligman, hilarious young man from Toronto, who I believe now has set up house on a ski slope in Norway..the subject of the MA is barely visible - when the camera pans over ... (you will know who that is..quickly)..Interview/MA takes 21 seconds, kid is pretty economical with his use of words!

post #45 of 45

here's two examples I just found on my camera - I have been coaching them for the past 2 years... now these are first year U14s, so he should ski at least like this next year... something to look forward to. The point is the counter-rotation; their shoulders are not pointing on the direction of travel, they're both driving hard with the inside arm/hip/shoulder.

 

 

 

cheers

 

edit/ found one more - this one i think is on SL skis though:

 


Edited by razie - 4/1/15 at 8:17pm
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