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OK hip dumpers and big angle keeners...

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
Pop this one in the youtube vid, turn on the subtitles, and hear/see an interesting explaination of the difference between moving the pelvis inside the turn, and moving the entire torso... Angles are a resultant, not a focus. Carry/flame on... smile.gif

At any rate, agree or not, there's some darn nice skiing in this here vid:

post #2 of 14

Thanks for posting this markojp!   I find it interesting that they say you must incline to avoid hip dumping.   To me the student juxtaposed against the instructor looks to be hip dumping and the instructor - who is an awesome skier - is not.  I also agree that you see a lot of inclination in high level ski racers like Ligety, but I am not sure that the inclination and movement of the entire trunk is necessarily the solution to hip dumping.   When I look at Shiffrin's level shoulders in this image it don't see hip dumping.   I suppose she is inclined to some degree and perhaps the nearly level shoulders are a result of some upwards tilt happening fairly high up her spine.  

 

post #3 of 14

The other thing that is hard to gauge, and is often lacking in these videos and photos, is a side view where the skiers alignment fore / aft can be seen.

post #4 of 14
The initial "enough with pelvis" subtitle was worth the price of admission. smile.gif Cool video. The skiing speaks for itself, notwithstanding the loud suits.

The contrasting "student" frames might reflect several organic turn-building issues, not necessarily some misplaced and - it seems to me - improbable desire to move the pelvis too far too fast. Agree? I think I see the opposite more often among hacks like me: Leaning the head and shoulders in too early rather than having the patience to allow the whole upper body to settle progressively into the space made by a flexing inside leg... inclination without enough angulation.

But I think I get and relate to the gist of the clip, which I take to be: Don't sacrifice the power and flexibility of your "stackedness" by focusing too much on getting your hips low.
post #5 of 14

What I got out of this video is that pelvis-only lateral movement and pelvis with upper body lateral movement are products of angulation countering, inclination countering and a mix there of. 

 

For shorter radius SL turns, (slower speeds requiring quicker lateral movements of the lower body) the cross under is more effective and employs more angulation for a "quick counter"  in the mix.

 

For longer radius GS turns (faster speeds requiring more expansive lateral movements of the entire body) the cross over is more effective and employs more inclination for a stronger counter in the mix.

 

Just as does angulation and inclination countering, cross over and cross under movements exist together with varying degrees to accommodate the varying radius and speed of a desired turn.

 

I find that, this and similar other aspects of fine motor movements typically indicative of high level skiing are primarily acquired from the instinctual development from repetition rather than absorbed primarily through intellectual channels. However, it is good to check with intellectual resources (ie; instructor, coach, MA, publications/video, etc.) to make sure something is correct before ingraining it into your technique.

post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 
Q, not to devolve into an east vs west thing, but anecdotally after a few days in the Midwest, I would say one typically sees more 'head and shoulder' turning in the west (which we can typically get away with and can even save some energy in certain conditions... did I really say that? smile.gif ) , and more 'dumpy' in the Midwest. Some of it is gear choice related... West folks often ski a longer radius, and east, shorter, piste'ier for obvious reasons. The hip dumpers out here are typically young racers and a few adults. The shoulder turners are legion though. smile.gif

The inclination above the fall line for mid to long radius turns is pretty well established as being 'ok' in the race world, and as the turn radius shortens (bumps, steeps, SL), there's just not enough time to 'go through the motions' as it were, which is why we don't really see it in the Mikaela SL vid above. All said and done, both dumping and head and shoulder turning leave our balanced compromised and both habitual offenders less able to adapt and adjust to changing snow and terrain variables.

One thing about the Italian vids... there's one of them skiing powder and talking about commensurate tactics. I'll find it later, but all I'll say is the Canadian demo cats are much better off piste skiers than what was displayed in the Italian vid.
post #7 of 14

Mark, this speaks to what I was trying to explain in my transitions thread awhile back, when I talked about using imbalance as a tool.  

 

The reason moving hip only blocks tipping is because the early establishment of balance happens too quickly.  When total outside foot balance is established, tipping stops, regardless if the inside leg is flexed or not.  

 

Tipping the entire body initially creates the state of imbalance that allows tipping to a high edge angle to happen.  As the tipping is happening, angulation is gradually increased, eventually reaching a degree that creates a state of balance at the moment the desired edge angle has been attained.  

 

Watch the video closely, and you can see this process of gradually moving from inclined to angulated take place as the tipping to max edge angle is taking place.  Pause just as the tipping starts and you'll see a fully inclined skier.  Pause at the apex of the turn, once skier has reached max edge angle and you'll see an angulated skier.

 

The video does well in explaining that inclination is needed to allow tipping to a high edge angle.  But it fails to emphasize enough the necessity of having to angulate eventually, to bring the tipping process to a halt.  Hold that inclinated position they're promoting through the entire tipping cycle and you'll be eating snow. 

post #8 of 14

  ^^^^Imho, that's quite the same as hip dumping Rick. Too much early and excessive hip angulation can kill further tipping I agree, but this is what I think of when I think "hip-dump". Hip dump to me is trying to create angles by moving only the hips inside the turn via a push across and bypassing foot/ankle tipping. This often leaves one trapped inside and back and with too much inside bias. I *think*? it's ok to post this as an example because it's public domain--the mods can pull it if I am wrong though.

 

  

 

   zenny

post #9 of 14

It's one of those cyclic learning things.  Most skiers who aren't afraid of a little speed start with inclination without angulation and with little counter rotation, learn to add in angulation which helps with counter rotation, over do the angulation, get back to adding inclination with less angulation, and so on until they find the right balance.

post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

What I got out of this video is that pelvis-only lateral movement and pelvis with upper body lateral movement are products of angulation countering, inclination countering and a mix there of. 

 

For shorter radius SL turns, (slower speeds requiring quicker lateral movements of the lower body) the cross under is more effective and employs more angulation for a "quick counter"  in the mix.

 

For longer radius GS turns (faster speeds requiring more expansive lateral movements of the entire body) the cross over is more effective and employs more inclination for a stronger counter in the mix.

 

Just as does angulation and inclination countering, cross over and cross under movements exist together with varying degrees to accommodate the varying radius and speed of a desired turn.

 

I find that, this and similar other aspects of fine motor movements typically indicative of high level skiing are primarily acquired from the instinctual development from repetition rather than absorbed primarily through intellectual channels. However, it is good to check with intellectual resources (ie; instructor, coach, MA, publications/video, etc.) to make sure something is correct before ingraining it into your technique.

 

While I generally agree, I must say that rapid cross-under transition at high GS speeds and executed with high g forces on  long radius skis sure is fun.   A little risky if you mess up, but fun.

post #11 of 14
Thread Starter 
Anything can be overdone... For me, I was messing around with long leg, short leg for a few days. All of a sudden, I'm thinking more about angles and leg room than just skiing well and in balance.
post #12 of 14

Rick's comment really tied a few things together for me and makes the video more worthwhile.   Specifically the idea that inclination at the top of the turn with angulation that builds progressively throughout the turn is desirable is something that I have heard before but Rick put it into context.   The idea that developing balance too early on the outside foot blocks further tipping is new to me and very intriguing.  That also makes a connection in my head to another thread a few weeks ago concerning how to make turns more dynamic by getting to higher edge angles.   I know Zentune and others approach that issue by emphasizing  down unweighting at transition, but Rick's comment about further tipping being blocked by establishing balance on the outside foot too early via hip dumping is another interesting way to look at and approach the problem.  

 

I also liked the video that Zenny posted.   I really liked the analysis presented in that video and think it is worth watching the full video.  The coach in that video did the same thing that Rick did which is to tie the movements together rather than just focus on one aspect in isolation.   This is critical in my mind to making any sense out of skiing in general.   All too often feedback is focused on one small aspect of a skiers overall technique. 

 

Finally, in Zenny's hip dumping video the coach recommends that the skier focus more on tipping both skis and being more active with her ankles before moving the hip into the turn, whereas the Italian video is all about using inclination early in the turn to get rid of the hip dumping.  My guess is it all fits together as I can't say one is wrong and the other is right.

post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 
I'm guessing the Italians would agree with zenny on the feet.
post #14 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

 

While I generally agree, I must say that rapid cross-under transition at high GS speeds and executed with high g forces on  long radius skis sure is fun.   A little risky if you mess up, but fun.

I here what you are saying, but for me, at 6"4", 200 lbs. I need to rely on more inclination to counter the forces of the turn the faster I go. I have always felt that personal physic and its effect on skiing bio-mechanics related technique is a bigger influence than anyone suspects. Watching big boy Svindal create different angles that take advantage of his unique height and weight may represent a good example.

 

As well, rather than being quick with my feet on long terns, I rather focus on spreading the turning forces throughout the entire length of the turn. There, the only quickness in my feet may be in regards to simultaneous transition especially when a sudden need arises. But like you said, when going fast, a quick cross under can put you on your ass. As well it is important that you don't let your boards get too far out from under you under any circumstances.

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