or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Joys that come after fixing the "pervasive problems" of intermediate skiing
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Joys that come after fixing the "pervasive problems" of intermediate skiing

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

Why are the "pervasive problems" of recreational skiers worth fixing?

What rewards come to the advanced skier who has worked to replace those problems with good movement patterns?

 

 

 

Background:

 

There is a current thread listing and discussing "Pervasive Problems" of recreational skiers, here:

http://www.epicski.com/t/133203/pervasive-problems-of-recreational-skiers

This thread might seem a bit ... um ... negative.  

 

A second thread addresses solutions to those problems, here:

http://www.epicski.com/t/133360/pervasive-problems-solutions

The task of listing solutions might appear overwhelming since the list of problems is so long.

 

But what's been left out of those two discussions is why bother to identify problems and fix them in the first place.  That's what this thread is intended to be all about.  Maybe people would have fun putting into words how skiing changes, how the joys and pleasures broaden or shift, once a skier moves beyond that intermediate plateau.

post #2 of 18
It's fun for people to be able to ski with their friends and not have to worry if they can ski the terrain. It's fun to ski a bump run linking turns without traversing all over the place. It's fun to ski steep stuff at the speed you choose. It's fun to ski trees and not hit them!
post #3 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Why are the "pervasive problems" of recreational skiers worth fixing?

What rewards come to the advanced skier who has worked to replace those problems with good movement patterns?

 

 

 

Background:

 

There is a current thread listing and discussing "Pervasive Problems" of recreational skiers, here:

http://www.epicski.com/t/133203/pervasive-problems-of-recreational-skiers

This thread might seem a bit ... um ... negative.  

 

A second thread addresses solutions to those problems, here:

http://www.epicski.com/t/133360/pervasive-problems-solutions

The task of listing solutions might appear overwhelming since the list of problems is so long.

 

But what's been left out of those two discussions is why bother to identify problems and fix them in the first place.  That's what this thread is intended to be all about.  Maybe people would have fun putting into words how skiing changes, how the joys and pleasures broaden or shift, once a skier moves beyond that intermediate plateau.

 

I teach several seasonal school groups every season and sometimes it can be a little bit of a challenge in the beginning to get their attention for the season so they want to try things that may help them become better skiers. The young folks are  in the 8-16 age groups and they are often looking to get away from someone telling them what to do.   I tell them a little story about how really good skiing is about freedom.  It's freedom to ski in all kinds of conditions like powder, moguls, steeps, ice, etc. without the struggle.  The better we ski the more potential freedom we have.  Great skiers  dance on the mountain.  One clue I look for that helps confirms that I am getting through with any student is when I here the magic words that "it's easier".  Good skiing is easier than technically poor skiing.  Once a skier can turn left and right using almost any method, it becomes possible to negotiate most slopes but it's not always easy, efficient, fun or even as safe as it might be with better skills.  That's my story and I'm sticking too  it.    YM   

post #4 of 18

Cause I want everyone to be a bad ass skier!  :yahoo: 


Edited by borntoski683 - 3/19/15 at 6:00pm
post #5 of 18

As someone who's been working this season to get better from being a low intermediate z-turner....

 

It's fun to not have my quads burn when doing 1000 feet of vertical (or even 500)

 

It's fun to still be able to complete that same vertical later in the day in a single run, instead of stopping twice to rest

 

It's fun to be more stable at higher speeds, or more easily choose to ski slower

 

It's fun to be in a stronger more balanced position and hit uneven snow and not feel out of control

 

It's fun to fall less often when pushing myself or skiing steeper slopes

 

It's fun to feel more like I'm skiing those steeper slopes and learning rather than hockey-stopping my way down

 

It's fun to feel less worried about what terrain I can ski at a new place

 

It's fun to let my skis do some of the work

 

It's fun to go someplace like Vail and feel like I can really enjoy a lot of the mountain

 

It's fun to (almost) be able to keep up with some of my friends who are better skiers

 

And lastly, it's fun to think that I'm on a path to be even better and might actually even have real steeps, bumps, or trees in my future. 

 

:yahoo: 

post #6 of 18
As someone who started working hard on improving technique after age 55, I can respond this question.  Becoming a solid advanced skier, going from Level 6 to 8, means being able to ski much more terrain at any ski area.  Now I can avoid crowded groomers on busy days, find powder in the trees days after a storm, or go explore northeast double blacks for the first time on a solo ski day with confidence.  Examples of places that I have explored in recent years that I wouldn't have enjoyed as much had I remained a terminal intermediate include Jackson Hole (North Hobacks), Plattekill (ungroomed after a snowstorm), Mad River Glen, Sugarbush (ungroomed blacks, double blacks, trees), and especially the more complex off-piste terrain at Alta/Snowbird (annual trips).
 
Working with PSIA Level 3 instructors at my home mountain in the flatlands as well as instructors during trips out west made a huge difference.  Combined with increased mileage (helps to be a retired), I'm having a great time.
 
I had fun skiing groomers as a working adult during trips out west every few years.  Still have fun at Mid-Atlantic ski areas (1000' vertical, 100-200 acres).  But very glad I expanded my abilities with the help of PSIA Level 3 instructors at my home mountain in the flatlands as well as instructors during trips out west.  Combined with increased mileage (helps to be a retired ski nut) that allows for practice of new skills, I'm having a great time.
post #7 of 18

It's why many of us became instructors/coaches in the first place.  The sport has given us much, and we want to help others experience the same rewards, we want to give back, to spread the wealth.  

post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

 

Good skiing is easier than technically poor skiing. 

This is a Big Deal.

 

And the combination of easier while being able to handle more challenging terrain adds up to more fun.

 

If you look down, say, a nice little bump run at MJ and say to yourself, "That looks like too much work," you're not there yet.

 

With skill, you get to have fun while meeting the challenge. And you get to choose from a wider selection of challenges. The challenge does not disappear.

post #9 of 18

I take great joy in getting people to improve dramatically in a single lesson.   I have a unique situation where I see my students regularly, so getting to know them personally and watching them grow as skiers is the most rewarding thing of all. 

post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

Cause I want everyone to be a bad ass skier!  :yahoo: 

Why? Is it lonely at the top?

post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

Why? Is it lonely at the top?

 

Aww... I thought one thread at least would stay positive, fun, and not snippy... :(

post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbostedo View Post
 

As someone who's been working this season to get better from being a low intermediate z-turner....

 

It's fun to not have my quads burn when doing 1000 feet of vertical (or even 500)

 

It's fun to still be able to complete that same vertical later in the day in a single run, instead of stopping twice to rest

 

It's fun to be more stable at higher speeds, or more easily choose to ski slower

 

It's fun to be in a stronger more balanced position and hit uneven snow and not feel out of control

 

It's fun to fall less often when pushing myself or skiing steeper slopes

 

It's fun to feel more like I'm skiing those steeper slopes and learning rather than hockey-stopping my way down

 

It's fun to feel less worried about what terrain I can ski at a new place

 

It's fun to let my skis do some of the work

 

It's fun to go someplace like Vail and feel like I can really enjoy a lot of the mountain

 

It's fun to (almost) be able to keep up with some of my friends who are better skiers

 

And lastly, it's fun to think that I'm on a path to be even better and might actually even have real steeps, bumps, or trees in my future. 

 

:yahoo: 

Taking that list as a skier profile for the purpose of enhancement and improvement of all those aspects, I can't think of doing one thing that would enhance all of those nearly as much as increasing the level of fitness over the off-season. Nothing close to killing yourself, but make a plan (for skiers), start it now and take it all the way to next year's snow and your rewards will be waiting for you there. GUARANTEED! 

post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbostedo View Post
 

 

Aww... I thought one thread at least would stay positive, fun, and not snippy... :(

It was a compliment. Don't you get it? That was actually an attempt to keep things positive before you ruined EVERYTHING!  :)

post #14 of 18

Entrance into the fascinating new world of Stage 2 of Learning: Conscious Incompetence, is what one achieves, at a minimum, from working through the List of Pervasive Problems.

I say this with reference to an earlier Epic post:

Quote:

It [the book] presents four stages of learning ….

First Stage: Unconscious Incompetence - Unaware of what you are doing, unaware of what you should be doing. You do not know what you do not know.

Second Stage: Conscious Incompetence -
Understands what to do, but not how to do it. You know what you do not know.

Third Stage: Conscious Competence -
Understands what to do, and can do it when thinking about it.

Fourth Stage: Unconscious Competence -
Reactions draw on correct muscle memory, without thinking about it.

If we can get our students to the oscillation between stage 2 & 3, knowing which is which, we've done pretty well in the time-frame of a lesson.

 

For most people the real fun and sense of accomplishment start at Stage 3. For a given movement we enter Stage 4 incrementally, bit by bit, often by accident it seems. Eventually we have the List of Problems either solved or at least understood. Exercise physiologists suggest that about 300 repetitions of a movement are necessary to put it into instinctive muscle memory. Is there a better reason to ski a lot?!

post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by McEl View Post
 

Entrance into the fascinating new world of Stage 2 of Learning: Conscious Incompetence, is what one achieves, at a minimum, from working through the List of Pervasive Problems.

I say this with reference to an earlier Epic post:

For most people the real fun and sense of accomplishment start at Stage 3. For a given movement we enter Stage 4 incrementally, bit by bit, often by accident it seems. Eventually we have the List of Problems either solved or at least understood. Exercise physiologists suggest that about 300 repetitions of a movement are necessary to put it into instinctive muscle memory. Is there a better reason to ski a lot?!

It is also said that many of us promote to our upper limit of competence and therefore will be sure to enjoy a much more savvy and higher level of incompetence as soon as we get there.

 

It certainly didn't take me 300 repetitions to learn how to drink, so, I think that suggestion may be at least a bit flawed.

 

Did you find any reconciliation regarding all your responses to "write on how you worked through the mix of counter/separation/square/upper body rotation/ Z turns." ? I am curious what others may have written as well as what your approach would be. It was a challenging question because it sounded like you were asking for/looking for a certain approach to address a specific mix of symptomology that, in turn, might all be rectified through a single fundamental based root cause correction. That specific mix reads to me as in the realm of agility, athleticism, flexibility, balance and control.  In thos line of thought, I'm thinking the answer you are looking for lies within a certain particular drill. Am I correct?

 

post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

Taking that list as a skier profile for the purpose of enhancement and improvement of all those aspects, I can't think of doing one thing that would enhance all of those nearly as much as increasing the level of fitness over the off-season. Nothing close to killing yourself, but make a plan (for skiers), start it now and take it all the way to next year's snow and your rewards will be waiting for you there. GUARANTEED! 

There's a lot of truth to this. In the latest PSIA quarterly publication, there was a good article on 'Fitness, Athleticism, and Technique.' Any of the three singularly developed will result in limitations of outcome. Together, all the pieces will be in place.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbostedo View Post
 

 

Aww... I thought one thread at least would stay positive, fun, and not snippy... :(

 

It was a compliment. Don't you get it? That was actually an attempt to keep things positive before you ruined EVERYTHING!  :)

 

Dude, I wouldn't worry about it and actually agree with you in sentiment. It reminds me of a little story of when I was in middle school. I wanted to be a hallway monitor real bad and applied for it every semester but was never chosen for reasons I still do not know to this day. I even included attributes on my application that I have experience having been the hallway monitor at my home for the previous four years with lots of experience brutally punishing my little sister for being at the wrong place, at the wrong time, all the time. I included the results from my personally designed mini hallway hamster traffic study. The study’s findings supported something I suspected all along and that is hallway traffic will flow more smoothly if everyone walks along the edge of the walls. Also bubblers attached to the ceiling upside down would save floor space for more lockers. I shared my personal ambitions to be the President of the Chief Council of the Federal Public Hallway Traffic Administration and that I was prepared to step over or through anyone to get there. Alas, after many futile attempts, I was never chosen. It was apparent that they would not be comfortable working with someone who knew absolutely everything there was to know about monitoring hallways. So, you know what I did? Like you, I said the hell with it and went out on my own. I got my hands on a duplicate hallway monitor badge and even printed out my own counterfeit hallway passes and hallway violation slips. I even championed a new hallway violator rehabilitation program for all third time offenders. I based it on the scared straight idea and brought the underclassmen violators to the upperclassmen permanent detention room where they were teased, ridiculed and shot at the forehead with rubber bands so they could have a look at where they were headed with their life if things did not change. Long story short, I got away with impersonating a hallway monitor almost through the end of the school year until I got ratted out and busted by the principal. And guess who ratted on me? It was my damn little sister.

 

I have similar experiences with attempts at becoming a ski patrol and am slowly but steadily nearing the end of all associated legal mumbo jumbo.

post #18 of 18
From Rich666    Quote:

Did you find any reconciliation regarding all your responses to "write on how you worked through the mix of counter/separation/square/upper body rotation/ Z turns." ? I am curious what others may have written as well as what your approach would be. It was a challenging question because it sounded like you were asking for/looking for a certain approach to address a specific mix of symptomology that, in turn, might all be rectified through a single fundamental based root cause correction. That specific mix reads to me as in the realm of agility, athleticism, flexibility, balance and control.  In thos line of thought, I'm thinking the answer you are looking for lies within a certain particular drill. Am I correct?

 

Rich, I will answer your questions in the ‘Solutions’ thread rather than here in the ‘Joy’ thread.

Thanks,

McEl

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Joys that come after fixing the "pervasive problems" of intermediate skiing