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counter-steering the inside ski - Page 2

post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post


Is there some reason to never do this?  Or is it something racers do in specific situations?
I tip the ankles (and push the knees maybe, not sure) to start carved turns (not a racer), so I am investigating this issue for personal reasons.
The ankle-tipping seems to be directly and maybe inevitably connected to the feeling of knee angulation (yes, I know the knees do not bend sideways, but they feel like they do).  


Bear in mind also that there is a huge difference between tipping the inside knee in vs tipping the outside knee in. Pushing the inside knee in along with aggressive inside foot tipping, inverting; that leg is basically not loaded. I will not refer to that as knee angulation. On the other hand, the outside and loaded leg, if you crank that knee into knee angulation that is something else entirely.
post #32 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I think that's what I mean.  The top cuff rotates about a rivet (not sure if that is the proper term; it acts like a bushing, but you know what I mean) on each side.  The axis of rotation is through both rivets. If your were to move your knees to skis, straight ahead, the alignment of that axis would affect how the boot toe would move if the ski were on a frictionless surface.

Some refer to this as rotary or lateral boots. Rotary boots tend to track to the inside and lateral boots track straight. As far as I know all race boots are lateral. 

post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

jamt, zentune and BTS, since you seem to be reinforcing each other's postings, can you all confirm that you have actively explored this on snow?
 

I appreciate your confidence, but I'm not seeing it. We've established that ankle turning affects pronation and supination. When turning the foot, the joint moves across the rotational plane as well, which is a different outcome from tipping the joint. It's the turning motion that interests me here. 

 

  Meta. I go out and try to work on skiing from the ground up every time I go out so yes, of course I work on this incessantly, not just with myself but also with the instructors I train. People seem to get hung up/focus on the knee driving into the turn which is not really the same thing--especially if you do not start with the feet/ankle. Inversion not only elicits internal foot rotation, it also causes the femur to rotate outwardly at essentitally the same time and with far less muscular effort than if you had just focused on the knee/femur. 

 

  It (inversion) also helps "cure" hip dumping because it initiates the kinetic chain. When working on this statically, I like to point out aloud, "The ankle, knee, then the hip (by hip here I usually mean the inside crest of the pelvis and also the butt cheek) move into the turn in that order, even though the movements this precipitates are basically simultaneous,  as opposed to edging the skis with just the hips (thrusting across, then dumping) or knees (jamt's "side-loading), as people are often wont to do". 

 

 If I were you I would not read too much into the Italian vid---It occurred to me that they may even be slightly confused about this and/or it may be a bad translation---rather, I would go out and focus on tipping lte (make sure the inside foot in question bears little if any weight!) because as you have already said

 

   Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

bts, it's possible... on the other hand, perhaps the coordination of turning the inside ski counter to the turn has a significant effect on shaping the next turn early.

 

What I'm getting at is that it feels different from just flexing the inside leg (and allowing joints to move in) more. (It's also difficult on the brain to coordinate this movement since it's the opposite direction of standard instruction to turn the joints into the turn rather than away from the turn.)

 

  so it would sound to me that ankle tipping is still a fairly new movement for you. Keep at it!!! Remember as Jamt? Bts?  pointed out, foot steering flattens your edges, the opposite outcome of what we are discussing here.  You are over-thinking this, IMO.:-)

 

   zenny


Edited by zentune - 3/19/15 at 7:39am
post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

bts, it's possible... on the other hand, perhaps the coordination of turning the inside ski counter to the turn has a significant effect on shaping the next turn early.

What I'm getting at is that it feels different from just flexing the inside leg (and allowing joints to move in) more. (It's also difficult on the brain to coordinate this movement since it's the opposite direction of standard instruction to turn joints into the turn rather than away from the turn.)

Have you done javelin turns before? Same idea, but not loaded.

I agree with you that traditional instruction does focus a lot on turning the feet in the direction of the turn. As has been discussed, this inhibits inversion and tipping of the inside ski.

for myself I can say I have had a huge focus in my own skiing for about a decade on inside foot tipping, inversion and the counter rotational aspect is of course there but my focus is on the inversion and tipping. I am always trying to do this.

How my weight is distributed depends a lot on what kind of release I am doing. A white pass style release and turn entry will have weight initially on that inside LTE. However I transfer to the outside ski before the fall line. The idea of retaining significant load on the inside ski all the way through the turn is not something I strive for. But of course I have done all manner of one legged drills which include loading the inside ski all the way through the turn. My inside foot tipping never goes away no matter what I'm doing really. Aggressive inside leg activation helps move the CoM across more, which is needed to get further inside for inside ski loaded situations. So have I experienced this meta? Yes I think I have explored just about everything here. What I can say is that inside foot tipping is great! Trying to load the tail of the inside ski, eh, sounds a bit extreme and not something I am striving for, but perhaps it can be a useful cue. In other words if you feel yourself counter rotating enough that you feel pressure in your joints around the tail of the ski, this might be a cue that inside foot inversion is happening, which is a good thing. You are not going to be able to create any significant load on the ski that way to effect turn shape unless you move your CoM into a state of balance on the inside ski, which is not my cup of tea for general skiing.
post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


Have you done javelin turns before? Same idea, but not loaded.

Yes! Javelin turns just may be the key drill for counter steering the inside ski. However, that may not mean it is the best way to learn it.

 

I never really thought about counter steering the inside ski much at all until this thread. Upon recent examination, I have found a bunch of stills showcasing this element in my skiing. Has me wondering how the converging skis leave perfectly parallel tracks in the snow. Perhaps that is because I may be just only really carving the tail of the inside ski? If so, I think more inside foot tuck should fix that. Right?

 

If the two skis are going to leave equal radius and depth tracks in the snow, (in other words: carving equally) it is logical to assume that, due to the differentiating left vs right side bio-mechanics and that both skis are going to have to receive very similar patterns of pressure in order for them to match the same turn dynamics, we are going to need to "treat" the skis differently. I think that counter steering the inside ski may be a naturally occurring result of this need. 

 

Again, the javelin turn could be a good drill to discover the feeling but not necessarily the way to chase it down the incorporation of the movement. It is thought by some that many of these finer movements are the natural derivative of a natural and specific chain of development originally stemming, of course, from solid fundamentals. As in many similar circumstances, an attempt to acquire certain movements outside its natural chain of development may cause a retardation plateau difficult to pass through. A good argument to "be careful".

post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

...You are not going to be able to create any significant load on the ski that way to effect turn shape unless you move your CoM into a state of balance on the inside ski...

Hmmm... I wonder.

Significant? Does it need to be "significant" to have an effect? What if it is a touch/finesse/english vs POWER? How much torque is significant and still less then the exploding knees concern?

The discussion of turning both feet into the turn is interesting. Works pretty good when the skis are slipping (yes, I know, not universally agreed...) and is the typical discussion contention of how can a slipping ski provide the necessary resistance to support turning of the other ski, blah, blah, blah. That's not to say the fulcrum mechanism requires both feet turn the same way ...just because that is what is commonly seen in a pivot slip. Rather that each leg is empowered by the support of the other (or something else like a blocking pole plant.) Is it different when the edges are engaged? Can you work one leg against the other in opposing directions. Would you need to move your CoM state of balance entirely to the inside ski ...or just some i.e. applying pressure to the outside tail of the inside ski? If you are in a carved turn (say inclined 45*-60* for example) and applied this input to the tail of the inside ski, where does the equal and opposite output go? Might you be able to get that to result as outside ski tip pressure? Conversely, if you tried to torque a bit to the outside ski tip, where would the equal and opposite need to end up in order to support doing so? Inside ski tail maybe?

Yeah, yeah, I know. Maybe just entertain it as a theoretical exercise tongue.gif Sign the release first and don't be blowing up any knees!
post #37 of 38

"significant" means has an effect that makes any difference.

post #38 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

 

 

 

cgeib: "If you are in a carved turn (say inclined 45*-60* for example) and applied this input to the tail of the inside ski, where does the equal and opposite output go?

 

Some of the direct output of energy from weighting only the tail of the inside ski is represented by the amount of snow displacement left in that ski's wake. If you will ..."travel viscosity".

 

Hopefully, the remainder of that energy is there to support the outside ski also riding the tail out of the turn in tandem for a well-balanced property of boost into the next turn.

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