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What does "be patient at the top of the turn" mean? - Page 2

post #31 of 45

I just love that moment at the top of a big fast turn when you are completely relaxed, centered, attentively viewing the turn ahead and anticipating the weightless dive of impending execution.

 

A reliably steady return to center can be the saving grace to a lot of issues and, of course, balance in particular. It is the pause between the end of a full cycle of the kinetic chain of movements and the beginning of a new one. It is a moment where correction is most easily and most often both inferred and deduced. It is a good place to be, to go to and to come from. It is your friend. Be patient, treat it well and you will be rewarded. It is ... the top of the turn.

post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Well this changes things perhaps.

The short answer is you have to train your mind to stfu and trust the skis. In order for the skis to work you have to commit to going downhill. This is back to telling your mind to stfu because it says going down is bad. Leaning uphill while attempting to turn on steeps can end very badly. Like with you on the tails and the tips in the air launched.

But maybe you don't trust the skis on steep blues either but think you do. Hard to say without visuals.

Also, giving up steering on steeps, be it active or passive if that's your religion, is insane. Progressive steering, but get it done. You need a path that takes you uphill to slow down. Control speed with the line you create. And some smearing on a bagel is just fine.

 

Wow - gone for a few days & appreciate all the comments.

 

Tog probably highlighted the fundamental of my current issue best in that when I am not thinking or don't feel threaten by the fall line, I can trust the skis and as many said let the skis do the work.

 

Other than keep at it how do you conquer that fear?

post #33 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

@afterburn, if you read here often you'll discover that there are two camps about moving forward and backward over the ski.  Some say do, others say don't, and the rest say it's all semantics.  Endless debates go on about getting forward, so I didn't respond to that part of your post.  There's a current debate on this issue going on in some thread right now.  Play around with moving fore and aft at different times and see what works for you.  Or start a new thread and watch the circus.

 

As for actively "pressuring" some part of the ski (or all of one ski, or pressuring both skis ) ... versus doing stuff that "directs the oncoming pressure" to a part of the ski (or to one ski), that's another debatable issue.  I take my stand with the "directing oncoming pressure" camp.  If I do something that someone might call "pressing" on a ski, it's skating or lengthening a leg to change edges.  Doing that does not give the ski some extra gripping power; it moves the center of mass somewhere.  

 

Words having to do with moving forward, being forward, and pressuring a ski get all gumbled up with each other.

:popcorn

Good stuff thanks for the insight.

 

I got a pair of Bonafide 187 and found them to reward center of foot "pressure".  It is a relaxed and uncomplicated method.  I just see my line and take it never even thinking of the skis on my feet.

Granted, they do jump into higher performance when you press the boot tongue and slash like an ax murderer on the tails, but just putzing around(patience at the top of the turn) they do just fine.

I have become such a center foot guy I forgot to lock the bootcuffs from walk mode to ski mode at the top of a steep narrow chute and proceeded to nail the center punch to the bottom before I realized my 'mistake'.

post #34 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post
 

:popcorn

Good stuff thanks for the insight.

 

I got a pair of Bonafide 187 and found them to reward center of foot "pressure".  It is a relaxed and uncomplicated method.  I just see my line and take it never even thinking of the skis on my feet.

Granted, they do jump into higher performance when you press the boot tongue and slash like an ax murderer on the tails, but just putzing around(patience at the top of the turn) they do just fine.

I have become such a center foot guy I forgot to lock the bootcuffs from walk mode to ski mode at the top of a steep narrow chute and proceeded to nail the center punch to the bottom before I realized my 'mistake'.

Some of that,  if not all is specific

 

I skied the Bonafide   (not my cup of tea) and had to say totally centered on the ski. Tip pressure folded the tip up. 

 

I found the ski only responded well to very centered simultaneous edge changes.  And there was a certain unnerving softness underfoot whehn the ski was driven hard. 

 

I am rather baffled by comments describing this ski as stiff? I skied on the 180cm

post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Some of that,  if not all is specific

 

I skied the Bonafide   (not my cup of tea) and had to say totally centered on the ski. Tip pressure folded the tip up. 

 

I found the ski only responded well to very centered simultaneous edge changes.  And there was a certain unnerving softness underfoot whehn the ski was driven hard. 

 

I am rather baffled by comments describing this ski as stiff? I skied on the 180cm

I'm glad I don't ski THAT fast :)

 

I know what you mean, I love how bendy they are but I have yet to overpower the tips, I used to be a serious boot tongue fella to boot.  Now I just relax and stand on my feet, I find myself doing this on my Volkl Code Speedwalls too.  Is center of foot skiing a bad thing?

post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post
 

I'm glad I don't ski THAT fast :)

 

I know what you mean, I love how bendy they are but I have yet to overpower the tips, I used to be a serious boot tongue fella to boot.  Now I just relax and stand on my feet, I find myself doing this on my Volkl Code Speedwalls too.  Is center of foot skiing a bad thing?

NO, I don't think so. Depends on terrain, steepness, surface conditions,  speed, purpose, style and ski flex. 

 

I ski center of foot, but ankle flexion is more the determining factor I think that determines where on the bottom of the foot you feel yoru power transmission. 

 

For me,  many of the skis I ski on and have skied on (Volkl race skis, Head & Atomic) need  a fair amount of tip pressure to perform. Most of these also have a more rearward mounting point. 

 

Since I have  skied a lot of Atomic's over the last 15 years, I had the luxury of playing with the Vario-zone adjustment on their bindings. And for me,  when I moved the binding forward I felt more back. just opposite of what I expected. I always ended up with them set in the center All-around position, but for the most part Atomics are mounted the most rearward. 


Edited by Atomicman - 3/18/15 at 8:55am
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

NO, I don't think so. Depends on terrain, steepness, surface conditions,  speed, purpose, style and ski flex. 

 

I ski center of foot, but ankle flexion is more the determining factor I think that determines where on the bottom of the foot you feel yoru power transmission. 

 

For me,  many for the skis I ski on and have skied on (Volkl race skis, head & Atomic) need  a fair amount of tip pressure to perform. Most of these also have a more rearward mounting point. 

 

Since I have  skied a lot of Atomic's over the last 15 years, I had the luxury of playing with the Vario-zone adjustment on their bindings. And for me,  when I moved the binding forward I felt more back. just opposite of what I expected. I always ended up with them set in the center All-around position, but for the most part Atomics are mounted the most rearward. 

Thanks,

Funny how moving the foot forward makes the tail longer, I understand how that can feel "back".

I've become an unabashed schmearer, pivots in the steeps and tight tight turns that are almost pure pivots are much easier with the foot forward.  I usually go 3-4 clicks on the binding or maybe 6-8mm.  I tried more but the tails begin to get too long.

 

I find my ankle flexion to be a weak movement and use that motion more to keep myself perpendicular to the hill than apply pressure to the skis, this after I discovered the glorious boot tongue pressure.  Granted, it is fun and gratifying to give the tips some input that way but these days I only do that when necessary.

post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttinski View Post
 

Thanks,

Funny how moving the foot forward makes the tail longer, I understand how that can feel "back".   Exactly, most skiers struggle with to long a tail!

I've become an unabashed schmearer, pivots in the steeps and tight tight turns that are almost pure pivots are much easier with the foot forward.  I usually go 3-4 clicks on the binding or maybe 6-8mm.  I tried more but the tails begin to get too long.

 

I find my ankle flexion to be a weak movement and use that motion more to keep myself perpendicular to the hill than apply pressure to the skis, this after I discovered the glorious boot tongue pressure.  Granted, it is fun and gratifying to give the tips some input that way but these days I only do that when necessary.

post #39 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Well this changes things perhaps.

The short answer is you have to train your mind to stfu and trust the skis. In order for the skis to work you have to commit to going downhill. This is back to telling your mind to stfu because it says going down is bad. Leaning uphill while attempting to turn on steeps can end very badly. Like with you on the tails and the tips in the air launched.

But maybe you don't trust the skis on steep blues either but think you do. Hard to say without visuals.

Also, giving up steering on steeps, be it active or passive if that's your religion, is insane. Progressive steering, but get it done. You need a path that takes you uphill to slow down. Control speed with the line you create. And some smearing on a bagel is just fine.

Emphasis added above.  Very important point.

 

Look at the skier in this video.  The first few seconds show how his body is downhill from his skis before the skis are pointed down the fall line.  His skis are on their new inside edges and he's set the radius of his turn before the fall line.  This is "patient" speed control where he lets the turn come to him.  There is no hesitation in his movements, he's immediately doing the right movements, but he's not jerking his skis sideways, either.  Steering isn't needed.  If the tips are pressured as the skis are rolled on edge, then the tips pull you around as tight as you want--more angle and more pressure = tighter turns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LJDAPVoLs

post #40 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Emphasis added above.  Very important point.

 

Look at the skier in this video.  The first few seconds show how his body is downhill from his skis before the skis are pointed down the fall line.  His skis are on their new inside edges and he's set the radius of his turn before the fall line.  This is "patient" speed control where he lets the turn come to him.  There is no hesitation in his movements, he's immediately doing the right movements, but he's not jerking his skis sideways, either.  Steering isn't needed.  If the tips are pressured as the skis are rolled on edge, then the tips pull you around as tight as you want--more angle and more pressure = tighter turns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LJDAPVoLs


Thanks SSG... I also found this slow motion one that is very helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATaUvxAErpI

 

In this video, it seems that as his body moves downhill into the new turn, his inside ski actually engage first while new outside ski is building pressure?

post #41 of 45

That dude can rip AND a guy with whom demonic reference articulates well. One thing I notice about this skier vs many who are at a similar level is that he creates very high edge angles that remain directly underneath his upper body more so than the others. I believe an x-ray would show considerable lateral vertebrae flexion that is simply not possible with many other high level skiers of his caliber.

 

Lends worth to a notion of discovering the cost/benefit one's bio-mechanic irregularities in order to enhance the benefit and/or mitigate its cost. Personally, I am tall and often think about how to take advantage of added leverage while minimizing the constraints of a smaller relative base of support.

 

Skiing "correct" AND making it "look" good are two different things, and, of course, only occur in that order. I wouldn't be surprised that the day he put these two elements together occurred soon after the day he figured out that and essence of "hell" was intrinsic enough in his skiing to warrant its use in his screen name.

 

When used for your personal sking, the power of evil can be very rewarding. Just try not to forget where you got it ...

 

 

post #42 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Emphasis added above.  Very important point.

 

Look at the skier in this video.  The first few seconds show how his body is downhill from his skis before the skis are pointed down the fall line.  His skis are on their new inside edges and he's set the radius of his turn before the fall line.  This is "patient" speed control where he lets the turn come to him.  There is no hesitation in his movements, he's immediately doing the right movements, but he's not jerking his skis sideways, either.  Steering isn't needed.  If the tips are pressured as the skis are rolled on edge, then the tips pull you around as tight as you want--more angle and more pressure = tighter turns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LJDAPVoLs

What great examples of crossing over.  I found the crossover drill puts many of the actions a good skier takes into an automatic machinelike movement.

 

Good skiing movements will always cross the path the COM makes path over the feet's path.  Whether this is a result of the skier's conscious intentions or not there is a crossing with every turn.

 

One mystifying crossover tactic I was too chicken to try for too long was diving off the top of the bump.  Extreme crossing over at the top of the bump does indeed force the ski down and they WILL come around for you quicker than you ever thought possible.  Not only is this leap of faith easy, it is efficient allowing me to just plan my line instead of thinking of 'proper technique'.

post #43 of 45

I like the visual here around 20-25 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2x3BFhNUGg

 

I find this set of videos pretty solid (  http://www.SkiSchoolApp.com  )

post #44 of 45

Hi Hobie!

 

I started to reply a couple days ago but didn't have time to complete my answer.   I haven't had time to read the rest of the replies since then, so foregive me if I'm saying something that someone else has already said. Here is what I think needs to be said about "patience". 

 

The "patience" part comes in two flavors: Beginning and advanced. 

 

In the beginning stages of learning the skier tends to want to ski from traverse to traverse, fearing any kind of acceleration.  The correction for that, on easy, super comfortable terrain is to encourage them to ski from fall line to fall line and stay in the fall line for a lot longer than they had been doing previously. Here is an illustration...

 

As the skier becomes more advanced the idea of "patience" changes.  He already knows how to make a proper shape at the beginning of the turn and isn't grossly over-pivoting. The issue becomes more of a question of timing the pressure application through the forces of turn shape (centripetal force development), flexion/extension and to some extent edging. In the following illustration, note how changing the direction of the turn opposed the inertia from the previous turn.  As you can see, centripetal force takes some time for it to develop, so one must manage the rate and timing of flexion and extension to compensate from the loss of the previous of pressure when one releases the old turn.  The patience part comes in not expending the movements too soon, as to lose the ability to maintain adequate pressure until the forces build natually. 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope this adds something to the conversation. 


Edited by vindibona1 - 3/21/15 at 5:04am
post #45 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

I like the visual here around 20-25 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2x3BFhNUGg

 

I find this set of videos pretty solid (  http://www.SkiSchoolApp.com  )


Great illustration indeed... I also thought that the body is more quiet (face downhill) even for longer turns.

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