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Medium Radius Turns MA

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

Just some Medium Radius turns. Since I had a Video guy for a run or two.

 

About half way down Lincoln at Sugarbowl. 

post #2 of 27
Thread Starter 
Made a slow mo version of this video as well.
post #3 of 27

nice video and smooth skiing.

 

It could be camera angle / camber of the hill but I see small amounts

of A-frame on your right footed turns, your right leg lags behind a bit

and a small a frame results in the top of the turn

 

I think your left foot gets fast at transition, leaving the right foot a bit

too far behind. 

 

Or maybe the inside/left knee just needs to roll in more to "get out  of the way"  :)

 

post #4 of 27

Nice skiing.  Want higher edge angles earlier. Don't A frame, use vertical seperation.

post #5 of 27

I think the term "A" framing is thrown around this site much too liberally. "A" framing in of itself is only an indication of a possibly more fundamental issue such as miss-aligned equipment or a limp/lame inside leg/ski, neither of which seem to be present to me.

 

You are all carve here in your medium turns as compared to your short turns. Just like when it is said to learn something slow and easy before you take it progressively fast and steep, when it comes to full on carving, you learn it big and easy before you take it progressively tight and steep. 

post #6 of 27
Not always the case. It is also a way to get edge angles.
post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Not always the case. It is also a way to get edge angles.

I don't think I am quite understanding you. Are you saying that A framing is a method used to obtain certain edge angles?

post #8 of 27
Yes. Not necessarily the best method but it is a way of taking a short cut. Obtaining angles before speed and rythum have developed.
post #9 of 27

Then, I am not sure that you are referring to "A framing" in the detrimental sense in which the term is primarily derived. Skiing with shins that are not always parallel is often incorrectly indicated as A framing when, often, it is not. Only if both the "A" and the "framing" exists then might it be the "bad" A framing most people are referring to. The term "framing" is suggestive that the "A" position is a primary foundation of support (which can be seen to hold a skier away from the last 20 years of ski development and technique evolution). So, in other words, a little "A-ing" is fine but using that A as a "frame" of "support" may not be a good thing. Does this make sense?

post #10 of 27

It does. I thought A framing was when a skier  collapsed his outside knee inward during a turn losing skeletal alignment. Thanks for the info.

post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 

It does. I thought A framing was when a skier  collapsed his outside knee inward during a turn losing skeletal alignment. Thanks for the info.

Well, now your use of the terms inner leg "collapse" in my mind suggests an inactive inside leg which is also an indication that the bad "A framing" is occurring. 

 

Also, the words "loss of skeletal alignment" has multifaceted suggestions of something that is bad based on the differences of skeletal alignment and skeletal support.

 

Actually, in regards to new ski design and subsequent modern technique, I no longer reference A framing at all and instead refer to something similar as skiing with a closed pelvis or open pelvis which may also be seen as a root cause for which A framing can be seen as its symptom. And of of course the delineation continues with A framing as the root cause of other detrimental symptoms further down the line.

 

A framing can be over used simply because of its heightened visual access as compared to many other issues and symptoms that are far more visually elusive.

 

No one would accuse Ted Ligity of A framing but we will often see unaligned shins from him especially when his legs are multitasking through the transition.

 

The best diagram/though regarding a corrective measure for A framing that someone else had posted elsewhere: 

A little inside leg rotary, knee angulation and LTE tipping ...

 

LL

post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

I think the term "A" framing is thrown around this site much too liberally. "A" framing in of itself is only an indication of a possibly more fundamental issue such as miss-aligned equipment or a limp/lame inside leg/ski, neither of which seem to be present to me.

 

You are all carve here in your medium turns as compared to your short turns. Just like when it is said to learn something slow and easy before you take it progressively fast and steep, when it comes to full on carving, you learn it big and easy before you take it progressively tight and steep.

^^^^^^

maybe.

 

But Dchan is doing medium radius turns at far less than race speed - that is his intent in this skiing.

So, I (still) suggest *his* A-framing may be something for him to consider, even if the question is simply "why the A-symmetry"?

post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

^^^^^^

maybe.

 

But Dchan is doing medium radius turns at far less than race speed - that is his intent in this skiing.

So, I (still) suggest *his* A-framing may be something for him to consider, even if the question is simply "why the A-symmetry"?

I don't think there is any question in regard to speed here as he is not skidding at all and carving very nicely.

 

It also appears that his skis are generally tipped at the same angles so perhaps his shins not appearing parallel to you may indicate equipment alignment issues but not with a seasoned skier/instructor like this guy. I bet his gear is fully tweaked.

 

Your seconds point is agreed upon by me. It just doesn't stand out as an issue to me here.

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post
 

I don't think there is any question in regard to speed here as he is not skidding at all and carving very nicely.

 

It also appears that his skis are generally tipped at the same angles so perhaps his shins not appearing parallel to you may indicate equipment alignment issues but not with a seasoned skier/instructor like this guy. I bet his gear is fully tweaked.

 

Your seconds point is agreed upon by me. It just doesn't stand out as an issue to me here.

Valid Points - especially the tipping angles being the same.  The "classic" A-Frame typically has different edge angles ski to ski.  At least the image in my mind does ;)

post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

Valid Points - especially the tipping angles being the same.  The "classic" A-Frame typically has different edge angles ski to ski.  At least the image in my mind does ;)

Yes. For example when the visual indicator of possible A framing is present, that may be considered a root-cause generating a symptom of uneven edge angles but only if even edge angle are a goal.

 

You make an earlier point about "proper alignment" which brings to mind that the element of "proper" needs to be in regards eradicating any negative symptoms that such a root cause could generate.

 

When you identify a root cause such as alignment issues, you are identifying a "pervasive" problem that typically causes more than one symptom that when eradicated, solves these multiple symptomatic issues. 

 

There is also an issue of creative license when it comes to many technical assertions regarding incorporating personal style and making other adaptations based on a milieu of fluctuating variables such as personal body mechanics, ski choice, turn size choice, terrain choice, snow conditions, temp based boot flex, so on and so forth.   

post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

I don't think there is any question in regard to speed here as he is not skidding at all and carving very nicely.

It also appears that his skis are generally tipped at the same angles so perhaps his shins not appearing parallel to you may indicate equipment alignment issues but not with a seasoned skier/instructor like this guy. I bet his gear is fully tweaked.

Your seconds point is agreed upon by me. It just doesn't stand out as an issue to me here.

Not quite yet. I switched boots recently and they are still a work in progress. I am usually a little bow legged so I am canted to adjust some of that. These new boots don't have cuff alignment so the canting might be a little off still. Different boot, different ramp, different forward lean.

Also there may be some camera angle issues there as well. That was a rolling hill area. But it is something I will be looking at again.

As many mentioned however, looks like the edge angles are better. Something i was more fixated on.

Thanks for the dialog.
post #17 of 27
Thread Starter 
And for the remainder of the exam season, I think I'm going back to my old boots. I have those dialed. Trying to find just the right amount of ramp to get me centered during the exams is not going to serve me well.

tongue.gif
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

And for the remainder of the exam season, I think I'm going back to my old boots. I have those dialed. Trying to find just the right amount of ramp to get me centered during the exams is not going to serve me well.

tongue.gif

Good luck!
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post


Not quite yet. I switched boots recently and they are still a work in progress. I am usually a little bow legged so I am canted to adjust some of that. These new boots don't have cuff alignment so the canting might be a little off still. Different boot, different ramp, different forward lean.

Also there may be some camera angle issues there as well. That was a rolling hill area. But it is something I will be looking at again.

As many mentioned however, looks like the edge angles are better. Something i was more fixated on.

Thanks for the dialog.

Actually, that your new boots have yet to reach full set-up certainly lines up with an MA's resulting focus on ankles and feet. My boots have been completely set up for years and I could not imagine accomplishing what I do with my feet and ankles in a new boot. in a house fire, those are the first things I will be looking for. Since I first saw your video, I have seen many videos with smaller turns that size providing good examples of foot and ankle articulation. I really didn't want to be the first to jump on your MA but I couldn't resist in particular because it looks like to me that it is one or two minor changes for that next big leap in technique. I also hear you in regarding muscle limitations which is at times, disconcerting even though I put in my work at the gym. I agree that these new carving skis require a little more athletic input but that the output is three-fold. So yes, a bit more investment for a lot more gain. 

 

I only recently saw video of my own skiing, the results of which are having me play with a touch more forward lean. I hope it doesn't throw off my fit in any other way.

post #20 of 27
Thread Starter 

New set of Medium Radius turns.

 

post #21 of 27

Nice mellow turns. A lot of people would be very happy to ski like this. 

 

Presently you push yourself away from the ski (upwards) and towards downhill at transition. These movements remove pressure from the ski above the fall line. Without pressure, you can't shape the turn, and no real loading and deflection happens. You will also be f@cked if you turn through a patch of ice since your platform isn't stable. In soft snow you don't lose the ski, but you lose the opportunity to create dynamic skiing. 

 

To create high performance turns, you'll need to change how you balance over the ski during and after transition. 

 

I'd like you to do the exact opposite of your present transition: balance early on the new outside ski while it's still on its little toe edge. At the same time, you'll be tipping your inside half uphill to create an early suspending of the inside half of your body. Eliminate all traces of a push movement, and instead work on balancing. Gravity, the hill, and your momentum towards the outside of the turn will pull your skis through the arc - your job is just to balance.

 

As an exercise, traversing a steep pitch, lift your downhill ski off the snow. Do so by raising your downhill hip in the air. Doing so puts your body in a strong position for early balance, natural separation and angulation. Then tip from the old outside edge to new inside edge while balancing over the ski, inside ski off the snow, without moving your body into the arc. 

 

Another exercise that can help you is skating. When doing your setdown, make sure your mass moves in the direction of setdown. And set down onto an outside edge rather than flat or inside edge. Continue moving along the direction of setdown, roll onto the new edge, and skate onto your new foot, again landing on the outside edge of the new ski. 

 

 

Change your focus from making the ski turn, into balancing and setting up strong alignment on the ski. The hill will pull, your ski will turn, and if you're balanced in the right spot, you'll be able to start skiing powerfully. Let it happen gradually; there's no need to rush. As pressure builds, turning will start happening quickly on its own - it's your job to manage it, rather than to force the turning to happen.


Edited by Metaphor_ - 2/15/16 at 10:41pm
post #22 of 27
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that. . I will play with that. Good thoughts.

Actually while they were "medium radius" turns I was not really trying to make real dynamic turns. I was skiing on my new boots and trying to get a good look at my alignment. Especially since that was a big topic of the last medium radius MA (a frame) as you can see visabily was not the greatest and snow was variable so speed and power were not in the forefront of that particular run. However those were great observations and sounds like some good exercises.
post #23 of 27
Thread Starter 

Here's some turns from earlier this season. Just for grins. Mammoth, I think it's on "face of five" but someone else might know better. Early December, Punchy wind packed snow, ungroomed. (groomer is on skiers right of where I started)

 

 

post #24 of 27

Nice skiing - that's a good foundation. Keep working on the boots, they got closer, a little over-canted maybe? With that, keep tipping that inside foot too - some work on that won't hurt.

 

One ski balance on either edges is something you should continuously work on. With that, continue to develop good consistent separation - you often incline and/or rotate. Do often drills like drag both poles, picture frame etc. 

 

If you are to focus on one area to develop, flexing would be that - it takes a while to develop: touch both boots in transition, drag both poles from the middle etc. The best turn in the slo-mo is the one starting at 1:33 and you can see the big difference a little flexing out of it at 1:36 did.

 

cheers

post #25 of 27

David, great demonstration of solid mechanics and a sound set of fundamentals. Where I see room for improvement are the finer "soft" skills of skiing including the rhythm and flow I am sure you are capable of in short order with a little focus. It is often the two things missing while skiing under the scrutiny of a camera and would not be surprised that you have that to show as well. R & F requires a physical sense of freedom that can be considerably reduced with any underlying acknowledgement of ongoing permanent documentation. Any focus on not making mistakes is going to slash focus from the finer "top of the pyramid" skill sets. Rhythm and flow is something all keen eyes will first pick up from a distance that will suggest all the other mechanics not readily seen are, indeed, existent.

post #26 of 27
Thread Starter 

Thanks.

 

Those were meant to be clean turn mechanics type turns. I was trying to maintain snow contact without punching through, (punchy wind buff) and was "concentrating" on trying to lead with the new inside just a little. But I understand what you are saying. I just need to turn off the brain and go ski. Need someone that can dig out a camera as quickly as I can, try to catch me when I'm not paying attention.

post #27 of 27

Well ... inevitably, all of our best lines executed are only on display for the spirits in the sky. Skiing is a performance art who's spectacle vanishes with the wisp of our tailing spin drift and, only then, leaving traced in the snow our unclaimed allegations and waning testament of skill, freedom and adventure.

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