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Pervasive Problems’ Solutions - Page 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by checksix68
....

Obviously, I understand that there is more to the whole process than just this simple exercise, as evidenced by my earlier post outlining some of my own trials and tribulations this season along with some of the breakthroughs I had, but I truly believe that if a person is ever going to begin to progress beyond the intermediate stage, they have to become comfortable with moving forward to release the skis from their edges.  Later, they can learn different types of transitions and how to transfer weight higher in the arc to begin their new turn, and start putting more pieces of the puzzle together.  Just my .02 cents, hope it will help someone.

Consider that there are two "forwards."  This might be an unneeded clarification, but it's my lunchtime and I'm on the internet.

Forward #1: Moving the body more over the tips of the skis than before, loading the tips.

CoM (center of mass) moves along the length of the skis towards their tips.  Try this on any terrain, while heading across the slope in a diagonal traverse. Do your skis flatten and turn down the hill?  Not unless you do something else.

Forward #2:  Moving the body across the skis, flattening them first then tipping them from one set of edges to another.

CoM moves across the skis, from the uphill side of them to the downhill side of them.  To do this, the skis need to be traveling across the slope at a diagonal, and the CoM needs to be uphill of the skis.  You can start doing this when the skis have just begun to turn past the fall line, or wait.  You can do it fast or slow.

You can do #2 just a little, getting perpendicular to the hill, and wait when skis become flat, encouraging them to turn/drift towards the fall line while you stand tall over them both.  Then as they point downhill you can move across the skis - which becomes a sideways move instead of a downhill move.  This modification helps a person avoid moving DOWN the hill at all.

#1 and #2 can be combined.  Or not.

If people are too aft they're too aft. Consider in beginners that their boot cuffs are horribly loose. They may have lots of space between their shin and cuff. If the body senses there's nothing there to support them they'll stay back. It's unconscious. You can talk to them till the cows come home and you'll have a bunch of cows and still an aft skier.

Otherwise, excessive terrain only increases fear and aftness. Too large a wedge increases aftness. Too fast in wedge turns increases aftness. Pushing the outside ski to turn increases aftness. Lack of steering the inside ski can increase aftness.

While beiing on the balls of the feet is better for a new skier than hunkering aft, it's not the goal to ski in high heels. Ie on the balls of your feet.

FYI...2 summers ago I was watching some teenage racers training some moderately fast GS on a moderately steep slope.  The skiers had the cuffs of their boots REMOVED  from the lower shells.  They spent 3-4 days training this way.  Just a thought>   YM

In Post #36 SkiMangoJaza (SMJ) said

Quote:

The key to a clean transition from one turn to the next is releasing the edge's grip on the snow.

For example at the end of a left turn, your right foot/ski is on it's uphill (inside) edge.  You need to flatten that ski (both skis actually, but it's that ski that has the majority of the weight on it.)

To do this you start with a tipping motion of your feet.  Both feet tip downhill to flatten both skis and release the ski's grip on the snow.

The knees assist this, as do the hips, eventually your Center of Mass (COM) will move over your skis to the downhill side and the skis will come around.

So the feet start the process.  To start that right turn, both shins move towards at least 2pm on the clock face of your boot cuffs (with 12 being straight ahead.)

The part in Bold is a mental image that may be useful to the new skier commencing the first tentative, unnerving movements to the “side” and “forward”. Using again the clock face image in SMJ’s post: To start a left turn, move the shins toward about 10 AM on the clock face.

“10” or “2” as points of reference for getting “forward” as you initiate a turn corresponds to the second part of LF’s post:

Quote:
Forward #2:  Moving the body across the skis, flattening them first then tipping them from one set of edges to another.

Getting people to buy into this lateral and forward movement is the

Quote by Checksix68
psychological barrier

that is so difficult to overcome.

Having a default mindset of “10” or “2” may suffice for learning side-to-side movement for initiating turns. Much later when all of this has jelled in the mind of the now-high intermediate/advanced skier, that skier will know when to move "forward" toward, say, 9 AM or 3 PM if conditions warrant and if he/she wants a very quick turn, probably on black terrain. At that higher skill level the skier will be making intentional modifications of the 10 or 2 default mindset learned years ago on green terrain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman

FYI...2 summers ago I was watching some teenage racers training some moderately fast GS on a moderately steep slope.  The skiers had the cuffs of their boots REMOVED  from the lower shells.  They spent 3-4 days training this way.  Just a thought>   YM

That extreme sounds a bit unsafe but yeah, skiing with the boots undone is in the drill manual ;)

I had a nasty sprain two years ago and had to ski with the boots undone for two weeks, did wonders for my sense of centered balance and dynamic balance...

Thanks for the quote McEl.  Re-reading my post I like it.  I have been thinking more about 3 (and 9) on the clock face these days, but as you say 2 (and 10) are a very good start and often all you need.

Garlands are a great drill to get people comfortable with this.  The key psychological thing is that yes, you (the student) will accelerate as you turn into the fall line, but you need to trust that as the turn develops you will decelerate as you come across the hill.

I embed this on short steeper sections of a trail.  Tell the student to accept and believe.  Trust that after that brief moment of having to let go and allow gravity to fully take them down the hill, that they will regain control of their speed as the skis turn.

I do what I call "stupid slow" turns so they can learn to believe that they can control their speed after the release.

Razie, first off, bravo! You've come a long way in your skiing the past couple of seasons. Next season, I'd see if you can get someone to take some vid while skiing along side you for the sagital view... I think you'd benefit hugely from this as IMHO, you still have to be carefull about being too 'in' laterally without enough 'down' sagitally. You can get away with this on your hill, but with more slope angle and variably pitched/cambered terrain, it will create problems that you're not experiencing just yet. I also hope you can budget a trip out west for you and the boys next season to help round out your skills. Again, great progress and well done!

Most common skiing problems and flaws were previously discussed in a thread by that name in 2008. Here it is along with a few other threads that an intermediate should find useful. I chose these threads to reference because of their brevity, being mostly on point and being largely understandable by an intermediate dealing with the Pervasive Problems.

1. Most Common Skiing Problems / Flaws          10-28-08        (General Skiing Discussion)

2. Body position at turn initiation                         2-01-15         (Ski Instruction and Coaching)

3. Dumb hands                                                  4-14-12         (Ski Instruction and Coaching)

4. Hands placement while skiing                         3-02-15         (Ski Instruction and Coaching)

5. MA for a Perpetual Intermediate                      2-08-15         (Ski Instruction and Coaching)

6. ma – intermediate                                          2-09-15         (Ski Instruction and Coaching)

7. Does This Represent Current PSIA Teaching?       4-29-15             (General Skiing Discussion)

Other readers who know of or find short intermediate-level threads are encouraged to post them here.

McEl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog

If people are too aft they're too aft. Consider in beginners that their boot cuffs are horribly loose. They may have lots of space between their shin and cuff. If the body senses there's nothing there to support them they'll stay back. It's unconscious. You can talk to them till the cows come home and you'll have a bunch of cows and still an aft skier.

Otherwise, excessive terrain only increases fear and aftness. Too large a wedge increases aftness. Too fast in wedge turns increases aftness. Pushing the outside ski to turn increases aftness. Lack of steering the inside ski can increase aftness.

While beiing on the balls of the feet is better for a new skier than hunkering aft, it's not the goal to ski in high heels. Ie on the balls of your feet.

@Tog  - can you pls elaborate? I've heard/read thousand of times the COM should be over the balls of your feet?

Quote:
@Tog  - can you pls elaborate? I've heard/read thousand of times the COM should be over the balls of your feet?

Well suffice to say you will have scores of people advocating that and jamming their shins into the boot tongue. Many believe that they can't start a decent turn, nor can anyone else, unless they are jammed into the tongue of the boot and on the balls of the feet. Alas, much has been written on the subject with many a photo put forth in discussing this myth.

http://www.epicski.com/t/68018/a-teaching-scenario#post_876346
- especially post 24+

http://www.epicski.com/t/69612/so-how-do-you-get-forward

http://www.epicski.com/t/90579/where-do-we-want-our-hips-over-our-feet-why-do-we-want-to-move-our-hips-forward

http://www.epicski.com/t/99527/reconciling-foot-squirt-with-foragonal-movements

Edit: actually this one from last year has a bunch of links in it some of which are above. From Bob's post #6.

http://www.epicski.com/t/129737/instructors-do-you-teach-moving-forward-at-initiation-if-so-how-or-why-not

Thanks for links. Judging from the first one it's going to be quite revealing.

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