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Working on making these turns more dynamic / MA

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

Spring Crud, short/medium radius turns.

 

Suggestions (besides a slightly wider stance)

 

post #2 of 23

First I think it should be said that, for the gentle slope and style of skiing, having your feet that close together shouldn't be considered a problem at all. That said, your new, future more dynamic skiing is likely going to include a more stable platform.

Since you are a ski instructor AND a good skier, I am guessing that, other than a wider stance, you may also expect to hear:

 

1. ski FASTER

2. tip skis higher

3. more separation & angulation

4. look for more rhythm

5. squats and dead-lifts in the gym

6. ski MORE

 

To this I add:

 

7. Use more aggression. Find yourself an aggressive state of mind that works well with skiing fast. Personally, I have drawn significantly from my years playing football and the adoption of an aggressive, head-strong and slightly vicious attitude that was required in order to be successful in a high speed/high consequence environment. While you may not wish to ski regularly with music, you might experiment with it in your quest to become the Beast on Boards that your potential aches for. As a sample of what I am talking about, go on Itunes and sample "Bodies" by Drowning Pool and play it loud. I think you will hear what I am talking about.


Edited by Rich666 - 3/1/15 at 2:21pm
post #3 of 23
Upper body management. You don't pole plant well with your left hand, which messed up your turns. I have the same problem.
It looks like you aren't flexing your boots very much either, but I'm not 100% on that. It could be from skiing with your feet together too.
Edited by clink83 - 3/1/15 at 11:11am
post #4 of 23

What is wrong with the stance? Looks pretty natural to me. Vertical separation, yes. Wider, I wouldn't.

post #5 of 23
Thread Starter 

Thanks Greg,

 

even a touch wider stance I've found (when thinking about it) allows me higher edge angles and more vertical separation. Even if it only looks like it. That stance does feel very natural and I'm not boot locked. . No tip/tail bang there..  More long leg short leg.. got it.

 

clink83... Please explain why you think an actual pole plant would help.. Agreed I get lazy sometimes, but would it really aid in my movement down the hill? For a short radius turn I can understand for timing but in these turns where do you think it "messed up my turns"?

 

Rich666... Thanks for the thoughts. It's good to hear what some people think.

 

FYI it's probably steeper than it looks. It's not crazy steep but it's not really a gentle pitch either. Faster or higher edge angles in this snow (think mush over ice/spring crud) would probably mean breaking away the edge hold but I can definitely play with some different dynamics and speeds.

 

Regarding rhythm. There was not supposed to be a "specific task" as far as size or shape of the turn. I was just skiing various turn sizes in the small-medium size. Sort of what the snow/conditions presented me with.. But for Dynamic shorts, I will pay attention to the rhythm.

post #6 of 23

You've got a nice ride going. I think that flexing your ankles more and really start increasing your vertical seperation. Ok and more outside ski pressure. Good job. Most people would like to ski as well as you.

post #7 of 23

For me, the key to dynamic skiing is using the energy from one turn to propel me into the next.

Energy comes from bending the ski early or high in the turn.

The ski bends when it is harnessing pressure.

To harness pressure against the ski early, I need high edge angles early.

High edge angles are created through tipping & angulation.

Angulation becomes effective when I am able to stack & balance my skeleton against the inside edge of the outside ski.

To stack I need to be able to allow my pelvis to rotate over my femurs (or visa versa) while tipping my skis further on edge.

To be able to harness energy (Let's say pressure is energy), I need to engage my muscles to regulate it & to stay in balance.

When I capture pressure high in the arc, I can release it sooner to project me & my skis across the hill into the next turn.

 

Many skiers let the power leak, get it too late or never press their ski against anything in the first place.  Powerful skiing is dynamic skiing...

Use the power!

post #8 of 23

I think a teensy bit more width would help you. In some frames you look a little bow-legged, that can't be helping. That said, I think the main focus has to be the inside half. It's pretty good, but could be better and to make these turns better, it should be. You can see the shoulders dipping sometimes and your upper body does follow your skis.

post #9 of 23

Oh yeah, you WILL need to allow more vertical separation to gain the bigger angles that will allow you to bend your ski more.  I also like the width of your stance & your skiing in general.  I am sure you have heard of shortening the inside leg? 

Try some turns where your focus is not putting weight on the outside ski, but tipping, shortening/lightening & holding back the inside leg.

post #10 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I think a teensy bit more width would help you. In some frames you look a little bow-legged, that can't be helping. That said, I think the main focus has to be the inside half. It's pretty good, but could be better and to make these turns better, it should be. You can see the shoulders dipping sometimes and your upper body does follow your skis.

I am a little bow-legged (actually probably a lot bow legged). I've had my boots canted some to help with that and my knee tracking.. You should have seen me before!

 

Thanks for the reminder.. Inside half..

post #11 of 23
If you watch closely a few turns you don't pole plant or don't do it as well as your right side, which throws the turns off a bit. Its not a big deal at all, but you don't have much to critique. Having that pole tap helps bring your center of madd around at the top of the turn and keeps the skis under you instead of in front of you. I really struggle with that.
post #12 of 23

dchan,

 

What everyone has said above!

 

This is a step up from previous clips. I especially like the first and last turns in the clip where some pep is evident (i.e. bending the skis and getting the ski performance to make the turns sharper). When you're not bending the skis, you try to help the skis make sharper turns. I'd rather see you spend more time in the fall line in that case.

 

With respect to stance width, I have a theory. PSIA talks about a functional stance width. If your stance width is too narrow, we should see it causing problems

 

Here we can clearly see the skis closer than hip width apart. With normal alignment, I'd expect to see the inside leg blocking the tipping action of the outside leg. But we can clearly see a gap between the thighs and the outside ski on a higher edge angle. My theory is that your bow leggedness lets you get away with a narrower stance.

 

What I am seeing is excessive counter in this turn. Your shoulders and hips are turned more than the tip lead of your skis. This is causing an overweight of the inside ski through the turn finish and a diverging outside ski.

Because you are not balanced against the outside ski through the turn finish, you're using a little pop up to help get you into the new turn. Another aspect of the balance issue is that the angle of your upper body does not match the angle of the shins (i.e. too much bend at the hips vs bend of the ankles).

 

This is what is called "getting busted"

Yes you are caught without enough counter. Yes your skis are too close together. Just before this frame you pushed your heels out to help get them onto the new edge. Just before that you stepped your new inside skis closer. You had to do that because your up move at transition did not get your hips to the inside of the new turn enough. So here I'd say that even though your skis are too close together, you don't have a stance width problem. You have a turn initiation problem and this is the result.

 

 

What we don't see in these turns is a lot of long leg short leg. I can see you flexing and extending your legs in these turns but I'd like to see more flex of the new inside leg and more extension of the new outside leg at turn initiation. I'd specifically like to see is extension from the new outside ankle to start pushing the hips to the inside of the new turn sooner. That focus will help you balance against the old outside ski completely through the finish of the old turn (and stop that diverging). Yes, for crud in general we want to have a narrower stance and a more upright/ less angulated stance, but this snow clearly supports some good angles (e.g. 9 seconds). You don't need to create higher edge angles earlier in the turn, but if you did the turns would be much more dynamic.

 

The pole touch thing is a chicken vs egg problem. Does making a pole touch further down the hill cause the CM to travel to the inside of the new turn earlier or does moving the CM across the skis earlier allow a pole touch more down the hill? It does not matter. Your pole touches are a visual cue of what you're not doing. You can get on higher edge angles above the fall line. If a focus on pole touch gets you there, fine. If a focus on flex inside /extend outside gets you there, that's fine too. I've seen a lot of high performance skiing with the exact same pole touch movement, but it ends up more down the hill because of different lower body movements.

post #13 of 23
What Rusty said about long and short leg... Play with finding your edge angles by actively shortening your inside leg...
post #14 of 23
Everything The Rusty said, especially about pole touching. I'd add what one of my favorite trainers here at Breck says: You get out of the skis what you put into them. I interpret this to mean the more energetic you are, the more the skis will perform for you. You can make smooth and subtle movements but they must be active. I'd try opening and closing my ankles more actively than I see in your current video. Go ski some gentle terrain and focus on ankle movement.
post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

Upper body management. You don't pole plant well with your left hand, which messed up your turns. I have the same problem.
It looks like you aren't flexing your boots very much either, but I'm not 100% on that. It could be from skiing with your feet together too.

Please forgive me for picking on your reply. Nothing personal, but I want to illustrate something here...

 

Left hand pole plant. Obviously it is asymmetrical.  Is it the cause of the problem, or the symptom of something else?  I don't think the left hand is the issue, but is the result of something being off in the timing of the sequence of movements. Notice the "stutter" in at least one turn?  Rusty isolated on image and mentioned too much weight on the inside ski. DC tends to incline differently turning to the left than to the right where he seems to stack better. The errant hand is an anomaly caused by other things. 

 

Boot flexing: I find that when I flex my boots it is not by my own effort to flex them, but in response to the build-up of pressure as the skis act dynamically. Again, a result of another action (usually pressure build-up) , not so much the causality of the pressure itself.  The turns themselves could be more dynamic and I believe the boot flex would increase as a result. 

 

My point is that as those that coach others it is important to look for the action behind the action. 

post #16 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post


Left hand pole plant. Obviously it is asymmetrical.  Is it the cause of the problem, or the symptom of something else?  I don't think the left hand is the issue, but is the result of something being off in the timing of the sequence of movements. Notice the "stutter" in at least one turn?  Rusty isolated on image and mentioned too much weight on the inside ski. DC tends to incline differently turning to the left than to the right where he seems to stack better. The errant hand is an anomaly caused by other things. 

My point is that as those that coach others it is important to look for the action behind the action. 
Thanks for the thoughts.

FYI that particular run facing down hill drops off to skiers right as you travel down which may be part of the asymetry.

Not an excuse as I need to be more precise with my movements. that I am keenly aware of and continue to work on.

It's all part of the journey. Funny how what we feel is totally different than what the video shows. It felt a lot faster.. It felt a lot rougher and out of control than it looked. It felt a lot more symetrical except for the slightly different angles due to the fall away slope.
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post



FYI that particular run facing down hill drops off to skiers right as you travel down which may be part of the asymetry.

Not an excuse as I need to be more precise with my movements. that I am keenly aware of and continue to work on.

Secondary fall lines are in deed issues that will cause asymmetry.  Perhaps it wasn't the best section of slope to demonstrate on. 

post #18 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

Secondary fall lines are in deed issues that will cause asymmetryyup.. Understood.  Perhaps it wasn't the best section of slope to demonstrate on. 

True that.. If they were meant to be demo turns I would have looked for a better location.

I was just out with a friend cruising around getting miles and she asked me if I could video her. I agreed and knowing I didn't have any recent video of my self (i'm always behind the camera) other than a very short clip from my L3 exam it might be fun to get a clip of myself. No task. Just trying to maintain good turn mechanics in the spring crud.

Thanks again.
post #19 of 23

More dynamic?...why do you want to work harder?

 

Look at your stance width at :01 second.  Perfect.  Feet directly under your hip sockets.

 

Look at your fore & aft position at :06 seconds.  It looks like your center of mass is over your heels.  You'd be more dynamic, working your skis better, with your CoM over your toe bindings.  Pull your feet back under you.

 

Some of your pole taps are reached too far down the hill.  The spot should be downhill from your heels, and just a wrist twitch for a tap, not an arm swing for a plant.  Some say to swing the arm to move the body.  It is much easier, quicker, better to accomplish to move the feet.  Pull the feet back under you to start each turn.  Light feet moved by strong hamstring muscles move better, quicker, less disruption to the ski's grip on the snow than trying to move the heavy body. 

 

Shin angle equal to body angle???  If you can't see or feel it to measure it while skiing, disregard it.  Not enough boot flex?  We want stiff boots so we have something to work against when we're thrown off balance and for prompt response from the skis when we make an input change.

 

Do you angulate better on left turns (good) and incline more on right turns (bad), or is that just camera angle?

 

Your counter seems to be inconsistent.  More counter all the time is better.  Push your inside hip forward (without pushing the inside foot forward!) early in the turn every turn.  Hip angle equal to angle across the feet?  What is the biomechanical reason?  There isn't one, it's just nonsense.

 

Learn retraction turns.  Quicker.  More dynamic.  Less work.

post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

More dynamic?...why do you want to work harder?

 

Look at your stance width at :01 second.  Perfect.  Feet directly under your hip sockets.

 

Look at your fore & aft position at :06 seconds.  It looks like your center of mass is over your heels.  You'd be more dynamic, working your skis better, with your CoM over your toe bindings.  Pull your feet back under you.

 

Some of your pole taps are reached too far down the hill.  The spot should be downhill from your heels, and just a wrist twitch for a tap, not an arm swing for a plant.  Some say to swing the arm to move the body.  It is much easier, quicker, better to accomplish to move the feet.  Pull the feet back under you to start each turn.  Light feet moved by strong hamstring muscles move better, quicker, less disruption to the ski's grip on the snow than trying to move the heavy body. 

 

Shin angle equal to body angle???  If you can't see or feel it to measure it while skiing, disregard it.  Not enough boot flex?  We want stiff boots so we have something to work against when we're thrown off balance and for prompt response from the skis when we make an input change.

 

Do you angulate better on left turns (good) and incline more on right turns (bad), or is that just camera angle?

 

Your counter seems to be inconsistent.  More counter all the time is better.  Push your inside hip forward (without pushing the inside foot forward!) early in the turn every turn.  Hip angle equal to angle across the feet?  What is the biomechanical reason?  There isn't one, it's just nonsense.

 

Learn retraction turns.  Quicker.  More dynamic.  Less work.

So which is it? More dynamic turns are more work or less work? I think the direct contradiction of your first and last statements lend to confusion in reasoning more than anything else.

post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

More dynamic?...why do you want to work harder?

 

 

I don't disagree with this in general. But sometimes I know that I like to have more dynamic turns... just because. In the big picture of skiing the mountain top to bottom I agree.  I don't want my legs burning half way down. 

 

Quote:
 Learn retraction turns.  Quicker.  More dynamic.  Less work.
 

​^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. 

post #22 of 23
It is my opinion that dynamic skiing is the result of efficiency and not labor alone. The way I read the OP's concern, in this case, the term "dynamic" is being used in reference to ski output rather than input. A good skier can be dynamic while appearing to be effortless.
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

It is my opinion that dynamic skiing is the result of efficiency and not labor alone. ...

YES!!!  And when you have dynamics, the labor and effort is in managing the energy coming out of the skis/turns, not laboring to put energy into them. 

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