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Pervasive problems of recreational skiers. - Page 4

post #91 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

Welcome Abubakr,

I'm curious as to your ski background and experience?

It says "managing their turn through their muscular system rather than their skeletal system".

 

The skeletal system cannot move without muscular input. The statement above is nonsensical.

 

Perhaps they mean that recreational skiers use much more unnecessary mascular movements and less of the neccassary ones.

post #92 of 109

Oops, I quoted the wrong post!

 

I've been skiing for about 8 years but perhaps only for around 6 weeks in skiing days.

 

Last Australian season I skied 6 days, and learned to carve turns at speed (before this I was in the tail whips to control speed when going fast camp😃), but I'm still not very good in the bumps and short turns...instructors advised that my legs don't work together but more independent ly still in short snappy turns.

post #93 of 109
Sorry, I lied about my experience. Halve that!

2 days in Oz 8 years ago, followed by a week in Val d'Isere the next northern winter; followed by anther coyote of days in Oz the next winter; then a long hiatus till the 6 days In August.
post #94 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abubakr Khalidi View Post
 

It says "managing their turn through their muscular system rather than their skeletal system".

 

The skeletal system cannot move without muscular input. The statement above is nonsensical.

 

Perhaps they mean that recreational skiers use much more unnecessary mascular movements and less of the neccassary ones.

 

Abubakr, now I get what you're saying. Nobody would disagree that muscles enable joints to articulate. The issue refers to skiers who forcefully twist their skis around using gross muscular effort.  

 

You've likely seen skiers twisting their shoulders around to make the skis turn. These are gross muscular efforts. These skiers tire quickly and are unable to ski in challenging terrain or conditions. The same issue emerges for skiers who lean back - they're engaging way more muscles than required. 

 

In contrast, a good skier is able to line up their shoulders, hips, knees and feet such that they are mostly balanced over their outside leg, the skeletal system supports the bulk of the load, and a far smaller amount of muscular effort is used to steer the ski. 

post #95 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abubakr Khalidi View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

Welcome Abubakr,

I'm curious as to your ski background and experience?

It says "managing their turn through their muscular system rather than their skeletal system".

 

The skeletal system cannot move without muscular input. The statement above is nonsensical.

 

Perhaps they mean that recreational skiers use much more unnecessary mascular movements and less of the neccassary ones.

The bolded quote means that they have put their skeleton in such a position that there is a lot of tension in their muscles (especially their quads),  whereas a "better" skier would position their skeleton such that there is less tension in their muscles, managing high turn forces by loading up their bones with compression, with much less muscle tension (and fatigue).

post #96 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

afternoon update

 

List of the Most Pervasive Problems that recreational skiers have in their skiing

 

1.  sloppy turn entries (beginner through intermediates)

2.  stance and balance is off (using a simpler framework)

3.  not knowing how a ski works, so unable to get the ski to turn the skier

4.  defensive moves instead of offensive moves

5.  skiing from the back of the ski with no tip pressure 

6.  inability to completely abandon the wedge and replace it with a parallel stance

7.  (in bumps) stiff-legging and waist-beinding to avoid getting backseated (intermediates)

8.  inability to effectively release the old outside ski (at all levels)
9.  not having patience thus skiing defensively; patience is a big part of offensive movement

10.  leaning up hill with too much weight on the inside ski

11.  people push on their skis too much, jamming them in at the bottom of the turn, perpetually riding the brakes

12.  most skiers place a lot of weight on the inside leg

13.  a "rush to action;"  not using patience to allow the progressive development of the turn

14.  there's a misconception about who a lesson can help; many think lessons are for beginners only 

15.  jamming on the brakes instead of beginning turning movements at the top of the turn for speed control

16.  hurrying the turn entrance 

17.  upper body rotation

18.  little or no ankle flexion/extension

19.  Improper (and often too early) pressuring of the outside ski

20.  Improper movement of the Center of Mass.

21.  lack of separation

22.  balance point too far to the rear. 

23.  failure to flex ankles. 

24.  lack of foot engagement. 

25.  TIMING- extending when they should flex, flexing when they should extend

26.  up unweighting

27.  lack of upper body-lower body separation (skiing square instead) 

28.  lack of angulation (leaning in instead)

29.  excess tension throughout the body; managing the turn with their muscular system rather than through their skeletal system

30.  not engaging the core while being sufficiently un-tense throughout the rest of the body

31.  skiers don't create flow from one turn to the next (a traverse between turns; a dead spot between turns; rushing of the top of the turn)

32.  unable to, unwilling to, or unaware of the need to produce round turns

33.  pivot and brace turn mechanism.

34.  feet consistently in front of body, and feet consistently downhill of body.

35.  arms swinging; inside arm/hand dropping back

37.  “pushing the tails” as a way to initiate parallel turns

38.  skis are seen as a braking tool, and not a turning instrument

39.  skier is back and inside, necessitating a  big body move to get down the hill

40.  using big movements to control the skis rather than subtle movements to allow things to happen

41.  upper body rotation

42.  lack of long leg short leg

43.  not knowing how to use the inside leg/foot/ski

44.  no conception of release

45.  no ankle tipping

Great list LF and I certainly agree with virtually the entire list.  Not only is this list pervasive in the skiing public but also visible in throughout a large portion of ski instructors.  One of the first steps necessary to correct one's technical problems is to have a clear understanding of what the desired specific outcome is, to have a definitive idea of the specific elements which contribute to the desired outcome, to have a method of practice which leads to progress (what and how should I practice)  and to have a method of personal evaluation which measures your success or lack of. (viz.  video taping/ examination and interpretation of RR tracks/ personal feedback from a competent coach.   What I see in the ski teaching industry is a lack of clear understanding of what to do and how to do it  (I work with over 100 instructors at all levels of cert.).  The interesting thing is however, when a truly good skier rips down a slope, most skiers do recognize that what they just saw was good skiing, even if they cannot identify the specific elements which make that skiing proficient.  YM

post #97 of 109

Referring to this list as all pervasive issues is akin to saying something like the average skier is plagued with most of the over 40 listed. Personally, it appears to me as much more a list containing elements of specificity and uniqueness that indicate the lack of universal application as dictated by the term "pervasive". To me, their specificity ring truer as the symptomology from a much smaller group of root causes (ie: weaknesses with 1. balance, 2. stance, 3. equipment, 4. fitness, 5. psychology and 6. intellectual) each that "pervade" the system with a certain grouping of these symptoms. On the other side of this list of symptoms is a list of its final resulting disadvantages.  We all know that technical issues reside somewhere in a numerously linked delineation of cause and effect, address of which is rarely simple enough as to heed a singular approach. Easy enough to put holes in specific elements but at least an approach to a flow chart used as a path to diagnose, treat and remedy a skiers individual issues. A humbly tendered example of a flow chart used as a path to diagnose, treat and remedy a skiers individual issues:

                                 

 

 

Step A. Pervading - Root Cause        # 3.   - Equipment issue

 

Step B. Root Cause Symptoms        # 23. - Failure to flex ankles ( # 23 on your list)

 

Step C. Symptoms Disadvantage      # 1.   - Poor front to back pressure distribution

                                                      # 2.   - Learching upper body to get over ski

 

Step D. Disadvantage Result             # 1. -   Poor ski performance. 

 

Step E. Treatment                            # 1. -  Researching boot issue

                                                      # 2. -  Boot fitting or purchase

 

Step F. Remedy                               #1. -  Correct fore/aft boot alignment

 

Step G. Results                                #1. - Better pressure distribution

                                                       #2. - Bettwer ski performance

post #98 of 109

I still say sloppy boots and dull skis are the MAIN "pervasive problems" plaguing terminal intermediate skiers, probably at least 50% of all of them.  The other 1-45 will depend entirely on what kind of instruction they have had access to be it good lessons or at least good observation skills to mimic better skiers and hone their technique.

post #99 of 109

For advanced skiers I'll throw in -

#50 Always has shins firmly pressed into their boot tongues. (I'd use "mashed" but it's not as encompassing)

 

Quote:
. To me, their specificity ring truer as the symptomology from a much smaller group of root causes (ie: weaknesses with 1. balance, 2. stance, 3. equipment, 4. fitness, 5. psychology and 6. intellectual) each that "pervade" the system with a certain grouping of these symptoms. -Rich666

#50 Would be an "intellectual" root cause. It is a taught/learned behavior.

post #100 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

For advanced skiers I'll throw in -

#50 Always has shins firmly pressed into their boot tongues. (I'd use "mashed" but it's not as encompassing)

 

#50 Would be an "intellectual" root cause. It is a taught/learned behavior.


Had that discussion with a L3 instructor at my mountain the other the other day.  He doesn't seem to want to work the entire ski from tip to tail.  IMHO I think he is missing half the fun.  YM

post #101 of 109
A list of 50 things and growing.... Now try to compile that into a coherent correctional path. All of a sudden things like the CSIA and PSIA manuals and tenants seem like genious.
post #102 of 109

I like to follow the KISS principle when looking at problems like this.  Like markojp said above the list keeps growing.  The short list that I see as very few skiers, right up to the starting levels of advance have not yet fully developed BALANCE AND EDGE FEEL.  Without developing these skills trying to correct the list of problems becomes a hard task as they are all a symptom of this simple one.

 

Most skiers understand the concepts, they just can't feel them because they don't fully understand balance and edge feel.

 

Speaking from personal experience, I was 16 when an old instructor focused on balance and edge feel (I was already pretty good then),  the difference in my skiing was remarkable.  I still focus personally focus on this as it is the foundation of everything else we do skiing.   The rest are concepts and ideas of how things are down (and these change over time).  The simple stuff doesn't.

 

The good instructors teach this without realizing it so that it get missed in a lot of cases (added) by instructors that have less experience.

 

Just MHO as a non instructor.  What's funny know I keep getting approach on lifts to teach people, while this is compliment, I know that there are those that can teach better than I do (my compliments to several on this site for insight that they have shared in their postings as it has improved my understanding by adding a different view, including some that are not instructors).


Edited by oldschoolskier - 3/13/15 at 6:04am
post #103 of 109

McEl wrote to Rich666:

Quote:

I would like to see you write on how you worked through the mix of counter/separation/square/upper body rotation/ Z turns

 

 
Rich asked:

Quote:

Are you asking how I have worked through this or help someone else?

 

Rich,

Both, please.

Your personal experience on what you tried first, and then worked on next,  and so forth, until it all came together for you.

 

Also, if you have guided others through the same problems, what worked the best for the most?

Thanks,

McEi

 

 

MCEl, I did answer the first half of your question already. Here it is:

 

 

MCEl, I did answer the first half of your question already. Here it is:

 

I can only speak on myself in regards to anything as complicated as the elements you are packaging. Working through such a complicated endeavor with a student or youth athlete might only occur  depending on a unique starting point with any individual. While I have definitely at times focused on these things individually and perhaps in pairs, putting it all together has been more of an experiential journey than an intellectual one. Much of the blend (that you ask for) of counter rotation and rotation; vertical and rotary separation; angulation and slight inclination and a square upper body that follows a slight rotation through the turn that I might demonstrate in my own skiing, especially the fine tuning of which, can be attributed to steep hill in-line skating. Anytime you venture outside of an optimal bio-mechanical alignment in respect with your chosen mix of elements while making turns on a steep pitch with such a small base of support, the asphalt is always ready with an immediate message that such an errant "excursion" of Com vs BoS has indeed occurred which is often the result of having any of these finer elements too far out of balance. If I didn't have the benefit of alpine inline, I can't imagine the number of on-hill ski drills I might need to fill that void.  With all due respect to other trains of thought, I do not feel that, at least for myself, such a complicatedly nuanced balance of sophisticated movements needs to be actualized primarily through training the body in a manner where intellectual understanding has limited benefits. To clarify, I am speaking of steep hill skating and not the shallow pitch examples you see of people gate training on youtube. Also, for contextual clarity, I am referencing my experience coaching alpine in-line training with and without gates at The Round Hearth Summer Ski Racing Camp in Stowe, Vt. where the primary focus was on alpine in-line. Stowe has an alpine inline facility equipped with a J bar along a steep and undulating asphalt slope. Granted, carving turns down a 30 degree pitch is not for the faint of heart (mistakes will literally rip the skin off your tush) and is only recommended for expert skiers with advanced in-line skating experience

 

For those seeking a great drill that will force a balanced compliance of these movements, II would recommend the “Bunny Hop” (also listed under other names such as the “hop” drill).  This is the first drill I was ever exposed to as a learning skier and probably has remained the most relevant to me from then on up to the present compared to any others of the so many out there. Incorporating, if you will, the ultimate blend of compliance, from vertical and rotary separation, to balance, fore/aft stance, angulation, turn rhythm, pivoting, pole plant timing and overall athleticism and agility, the goofily named drill “The Bunny Hop”  (prob due to age relevancy) rocks the house as my # 1 drill ever.


 

 

 

post #104 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

A list of 50 things and growing.... Now try to compile that into a coherent correctional path. All of a sudden things like the CSIA and PSIA manuals and tenants seem like genious.

 Another example from above:

 

Step A. Pervading - Root Cause        # 3.    Intellectual

 

Step B. Root Cause Symptoms        # 3.    Not knowing how a ski works, so unable to get the ski to turn the skier ( # 3 on the original list)

 

Step C. Symptoms Disadvantage      # 1.   Lack of technical context for over-all understanding

                                                      # 2.    Lack of comprehension/understanding of technical jargon typically associated with ski related bio-mechanics, instruction, coaching & related forums

 

Step D. Disadvantage Result             # 1.  Slower learning 

 

Step E. Treatment                            # 1.   Review ski terms glossary on Epic site

                                                      # 2.   Learn terminology and its application

 

Step F. Remedy                               #1.  Increased comprehension

 

Step G. Results                                #1.  More effective learning and communication

                                                       

 

:)

post #105 of 109

Oh, sorry ... I shouldn't assume everyone is going to have the contextual background. The Epic Glossary refers to the "bunny hop" as "leapers". It is also referred to in general as a hop drill that may incorporate a variety of adaptions, interpretations, inputs and outputs such as "hop and pivot", with and w/o lateral movement, etc. I really hope this helps ... whomever ...

post #106 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

I still say sloppy boots and dull skis are the MAIN "pervasive problems" plaguing terminal intermediate skiers, probably at least 50% of all of them.

 

Sloppy boots and not enough slope time.  Those were certainly my problems for my first 25 years of skiing.

post #107 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by McEl View Post
 

Pervasive problems of recreational skiers.

With the season well advanced most of us have had many opportunities to observe, again, a lot of poor skiing, and from those observations we should be able to quickly assemble a List of the Most Pervasive Problems that recreational skiers have in their skiing. When you identify a particular problem please indicate which level of skiing most frequently exhibits most of the problem you identify. By ‘level of skiing’ perhaps we could use the three broad categories of Beginner/novice zone; Intermediate zone; Advanced zone.

Perhaps add a few notes about why this problem exists and the disadvantage it causes the skier.

 

But for now (to postpone the inevitable lengthy arguments) I suggest leaving out your opinion of the best way to cure or fix the problem. I suggest saving “the cure” or “fixes” or  “favorite drills” for the problem to be the subjects of another thread, after the List of Pervasive Problems is completed.

 

I will start the list with the problem I notice the most:

 

1. Turn entries.                 Beginner /novice zone (obviously); also intermediate and advanced. I see many advanced, aggressive, capable skiers on difficult terrain who make amazingly sloppy turn entries, but it serves their purposes, they seem comfortable, and they apparently see no need to change. They expend a lot of energy unnecessarily with their methods of initiating turns.

 

2. Next problem ????

 

3.  etc.

 

The biggest pervasive problem a recreational skier could ever have, as far as I'm concerned, is that they are way to pervasive, yet very pliable and, not to mention, they is "constantly" friendly

!

Gumby.jpg


Edited by Rich666 - 3/20/15 at 2:21pm
post #108 of 109

A good example of what happens when we get too caught up in all the minutia:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2NovM22D04&t=215

 

 

As others have pointed out already, I think its really important to figure out underlying causes before prescribing solutions.  I see a lot of peers recommending solutions to symptoms, and often that is not only wrong, but can even be destructive.  There are quite often unintended consequences.  the dilemma here is that in order to really understand cause and effect to the degree necessary, a great deal of knowledge and understanding about skiing is required and there is also a lot of room for personal interpretation.  There are many biases and memes throughout the ski instructor world which can influence that process for better or worse.

 

For example, excessive inside tip lead.  In my experience, most people are not even aware of their excessive inside tip lead, they are not consciously and intentionally doing it.  Its a RESULT of something else, probably falling too much onto their inside ski.  If you identify the inside tip lead problem and try to get them to stop doing it, they may very well solve the problem the wrong way, by thrusting the outside ski forward or some other baloney.  I've heard instructors even tell students exactly that.  Its really important to understand cause and effect.  What is actually causing their inside ski to slide forward?  If its because they are falling onto the inside ski, then work on lateral balance skills to get to the outside ski and stay there.  Watch the inside tip lead vanish.   Perhaps some icing on the cake to hold the inside foot back, AFTER you have addressed the root cause.  

 

But wait, there is more...  go deeper.  WHY are they falling onto the inside ski?  Try to go deeper and deeper and get to the root cause.  Did they get too excited about pushing themselves into the new turn?  what was the cause of it?  Is it all about the transition?  In the end, I have found that almost everything can be whittled down to less then 10 key movements which are either missing and/or destructive movements which are present...which ultimately cause all of the many symptoms that have been listed here.  

 

Often times the root causes happen earlier in time then the symptoms.  In other words you have to look back earlier in the turn to find the error in order to correct the symptom happening later.  This takes a lot of deep understanding, that better be right, about what WAS SUPPOSED to happen earlier, or not supposed to happen back there.  It requires a very clear understanding of the components of good skiing.

 

So personally I think it will almost always come down to identifying one or two of those key movements and working on them.  Magic quick tips to eliminate some symptom is often times destructive in the long run if it causes unintended consequences and destructive movements.  Stealing from peter to pay paul.  And if it ignores the fundamental cause to begin with, then the problem has not really been solved.

 

In general I like this discussion as a brain storming.  I personally don't think you will be able to come up with some ultimate refined list.  There will never be complete agreement on this forum about what root causal issues cause what symptoms and people will begin to become defensive when someone points out that a solution they have been teaching for 30 years is actually the root cause of some other symptom.  But this discussion is still good because as peers its good to discuss all the ups and downs and symptoms and causes and drills and things to think about, so that each one of us can become a better ski engineer and able to deduce on the spot, root causes of things and understand some of the many reasons why these various different symptoms occur.  

 

In my view, each of us needs to have a blueprint of what key couple of movements are really the root issues and learn to relate all of the symptoms back to those root key movement patterns.  Learn to understand the cause and effect, then teach the key movements.  For better or worse, there is not one set of rules for those key movements, but nonetheless, that is what each of us needs to get to, teaching key movement patterns which lead to less and less symptoms.  

 

All that being said, I'm still very interested in hearing all of the many ideas from other people about drills and solutions, even if they turn out to be symptom fixes, because it still broadens my mind, so carry on!

post #109 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

A good example of what happens when we get too caught up in all the minutia:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2NovM22D04&t=215

 

 

While, IMO, Goofy simply rips under any circumstances, I have to say I agree with your conclusion and have only followed yours Metaphor's spin regarding a key absence of root cause significance.

 

Duly so, I have applied the correction matrix I made using the big symptom list and Metaphor's suggested list of root cause applications and applied it to the thread:

 

 

Step A. Pervading - Root Cause        - Lack of adherence to element of pervasiveness

                     ..................................(to pervade does not simply mean “to exist” or “to be seen as common” as it appears to be applied here)    

 

Step B. Resulting Symptoms            - Thread confusion, dead-ending, meandering lack of conformity

 

Step C. Symptoms Disadvantage      - Distraction from root cause and correcting related fundamentals

                                                      - Become mired in growing specificity ultimately lost in translation

      - Unrewarded effort/difficult extrapolation

 

Step C.5  Disadvantage Benefits         - Exercise in futility for increased resistance to futility.                                      

 

Step D. Disadvantage Result             - Retarded development

 

Step E. Root Cause Treatment          - Clarifying term definitions

                                                      - Adherence to term definitions

 

Step F. Symptom Remedy                - Proceed directly to fundamental root cause for correction

 

Step G. Remedy Results                   - Quicker more simplified corrections

 

Step H. Reinforcement ... ... ... ... ... . - Go to Step A

 

Step I. Assessment ... .... .... .... ... ... - Shut up

 

Step J. .............................................- Make J turn

 

Step K. Reassessment                      - No such thing as a K turn - literally impossible (dumb)

 

Step L. Advice                                   - Increase resistance to futility as demonstrated in having reading this far 

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