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wax "lifting" off skis

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

Hard to explain, but I'll try.

 

When I start scraping the wax off my skis, some of the wax lifts off in pieces.  You can clearly see portions that are still on the ski, but have a gap of air between the wax and base.  It's almost as if the wax never really adhered to the layer below.  I never see until I start scraping.

 

Is this normal? 

post #2 of 27

I have that happen when I use CH4 cold temp wax and don't hot scrape it.   Sounds like you didn't get it melted into the ski enough

post #3 of 27

Some of the wax is lifting off, but you are still looking at the top layer and not the baseIf I understand your problem correctly it is normal.  I think some of  the top of the wax is lifting off, but you are still looking at the top of the wax layer and not the base.  You need to scrap it down farther.

 

You need a good sharp edge scraper which should be pushed (rather than pulled), with the scraper being tilted forward to the direction you are scraping at a sharp angle.  It sounds like you are not getting all the wax off, so it appears gappie, and once you make a few more passes with a sharp scraper you should get down to the base level and everything will smooth out.  If I had to guess I'd say the problem arises from using a worn plastic scraper, or a metal one that needs to be sharpened to a straight edge again.


Edited by mudfoot - 2/28/15 at 10:51am
post #4 of 27
What wax?
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 

This is the final universal temp wax.  I did a hot wax prior.

 

 

post #6 of 27
So, when you were ironing it before, it appeared all shiny and melted?
post #7 of 27
Thread Starter 

Definitely all melted and shiny.

post #8 of 27
Possible oil or grease? Base repair?
post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Possible oil or grease? Base repair?

No base repair there.  I've owned the skis since new.

 

I doubt there's any oil and grease there.  I scraped with a brass brush first and then hot waxed until clean.  Doesn't that usually take care of the dirt/grime?

 

Do you see those spots on the lower part of the first picture (near the ski tip)?  There was heavier wax in spots there.  When I made one pass with the scraper, it's almost like it wanted to flake off.  Not quite that bad, but you get the idea.  

 

Is this problem indicative with cheaper waxes? 

post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

Do you see those spots on the lower part of the first picture (near the ski tip)?  There was heavier wax in spots there.  When I made one pass with the scraper, it's almost like it wanted to flake off.  Not quite that bad, but you get the idea.  

 

Is this problem indicative with cheaper waxes? 

 

The wax was thicker than optimal in those places, so when you scape it comes off unevenly and rips some of the lower wax off. The spots are not the bare base showing.  You just need to get everything scraped down to that level.  The problem is indicative of a bad scraper. although cheaper wax tends to flake more when scrapped.

post #11 of 27
Don't know, never noticed this, and I use "cheap wax". But I also use Fiberlene before the wax cools, which removes a lot of excess and evens out the remaining wax, which might impact this. I wouldn't worry about it.

As mentioned earlier, CH4 tends to chip off if you don't warm it again before scraping. I don't use universal waxes, or even rarer, fluoros, so don't know if this is normal or not. It just isn't for me.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

 I don't use universal waxes, or even rarer, fluoros, so don't know if this is normal or not. It just isn't for me.

 

Completely normal for not enough total heat in the base. 

It's not enough to have the wax be all melty and gooey.    The base has to be warmed through.

To the OP: If you are consistently having problems with this, I suggest:   when you have one ski all melty and liquid, put it aside and do the other one.     Put the second one aside and iron the first one a second time, getting it all gooey and melty again.

This also works for CH4, not that one should stop using Fiberlene.    I've done as many as 5 ironing cycles with the old LFG4.

From the 2013 Toko nordic waxing manual:
 

Quote:
 Furthermore, if cold hard waxes are "springing" off the skis, when you are scraping them, it is because they weren't exposed to enough heat when being ironed and there is air between the ski base and the wax.    This results in a slow and not durable wax job.   The combination of time and temperature needs to be enough to ensure a good bond between the wax and the base.   If the wax comes off like very fine sawdust, it was heated in enough. 
post #13 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post
 

 

Completely normal for not enough total heat in the base. 

It's not enough to have the wax be all melty and gooey.    The base has to be warmed through.

To the OP: If you are consistently having problems with this, I suggest:   when you have one ski all melty and liquid, put it aside and do the other one.     Put the second one aside and iron the first one a second time, getting it all gooey and melty again.

This also works for CH4, not that one should stop using Fiberlene.    I've done as many as 5 ironing cycles with the old LFG4.

From the 2013 Toko nordic waxing manual:
 

 

Ok, I'll give that a try.  Thanks for posting that.

 

Do you ever add more wax during your re-ironing?

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

 

Ok, I'll give that a try.  Thanks for posting that.

 

Do you ever add more wax during your re-ironing?


I generally don't, no.       By 'generally' I mean "with the occasional exception of edgeless nordic gear and waxes that tend to run off the sides". 

post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cantunamunch View Post

 

Completely normal for not enough total heat in the base. 


It's not enough to have the wax be all melty and gooey.    The base has to be warmed through.


To the OP: If you are consistently having problems with this, I suggest:   when you have one ski all melty and liquid, put it aside and do the other one.     Put the second one aside and iron the first one a second time, getting it all gooey and melty again.


This also works for CH4, not that one should stop using Fiberlene.    I've done as many as 5 ironing cycles with the old LFG4.


From the 2013 Toko nordic waxing manual:

 

Ok, I'll give that a try.  Thanks for posting that.

Do you ever add more wax during your re-ironing?
Newly ground skis are thirsty; I've also noticed that I seem to add a little more if I haven't waxed a ski in a while.

Remember that although you want the base to be warm, you don't want it hot to the touch. The thin parts of the ski near the tips and tails will heat up more quickly than the thicker parts of the ski, which at most should be barely warm, so check the temperature of the topsheet regularly. cantunamunch's idea of setting the first ski aside just long enough to iron wax into the second one is a good way to get and keep the ski warm without overheating the surface of the base. Don't be like me; I'm still living with the consequences of melting the bases of my Kenjas; the damaged base material doesn't accept wax anymore, even after a base grind.
post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


Newly ground skis are thirsty; I've also noticed that I seem to add a little more if I haven't waxed a ski in a while.

Remember that although you want the base to be warm, you don't want it hot to the touch. The thin parts of the ski near the tips and tails will heat up more quickly than the thicker parts of the ski, which at most should be barely warm, so check the temperature of the topsheet regularly. cantunamunch's idea of setting the first ski aside just long enough to iron wax into the second one is a good way to get and keep the ski warm without overheating the surface of the base. Don't be like me; I'm still living with the consequences of melting the bases of my Kenjas; the damaged base material doesn't accept wax anymore, even after a base grind.

Thanks for reiterating that.

 

I certainly have felt that I've had the bases warm enough before.  I've checked the topsheet and it's been warm to the touch.  I do the like the idea of ironing again, so I'll try that.

 

I had a regrind at the beginning of the season.  I've probably waxed my skis 6 or 7 times since then.  I'm also new to this, so all advice is appreciated.  I started at the beginning of this year, but have been doing 2 pairs of skis and 3 (kids) snowboards since then.  Still learning!

post #17 of 27
My new skis still don't seem to be at the fully saturated stage yet, in spite of a start state of six waxes, and at least once a week since the season started. They are not retaining wax well. They are GLIDING fine. I don't know if it's just the newness or the base is extruded, not sintered. (Have found regular discrepancies on that item across multiple spec listings for the ski, so beginning to think they are extruded. Have never had extruded, so not familiar with what to expect in terms of wax saturation.) All I know is they are showing wax being shed on the bases after just one day and that doesn't happen on the other skis I have. It might be conditions this year. Normally we don't have this much hardpack.
post #18 of 27
@sibhusky, I was thinking I might try applying some Start SG8 (the wax that got me in trouble in the first place) along the edges, which is where the bases get dry) to see if it might last longer even if little if any soaks in. Do you think it might make a difference?
post #19 of 27
Not familiar with the stuff. I've been using harder wax along the edges and that's the stuff that's apparently coming off, but then the edges get more usage anyway. All I know is, I panic at how they look, but then it gets marked by a fingernail. And when I bring them home, the initial brush with a brass brush brings them almost back to looking fine. But I remember a few seasons back on other skis being frustrated the first season. Then it was the glide, though.
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Not familiar with the stuff. I've been using harder wax along the edges and that's the stuff that's apparently coming off, but then the edges get more usage anyway. All I know is, I panic at how they look, but then it gets marked by a fingernail. And when I bring them home, the initial brush with a brass brush brings them almost back to looking fine. But I remember a few seasons back on other skis being frustrated the first season. Then it was the glide, though.


Skiing on what this year has been pretty much unrelieved hardpack-to-ice, almost entirely man-made snow, I have repeatedly seen the edges (not just under the binding) looking gray at the end of a day of skiing.   But brushing them out (stiff horsehair, maybe a touch with fine steel) brings it back to glossy black, uniformly across the width of the ski.   As in, no particular need to clean them up further or add another coat of wax, though sometimes I do, just on general principle.   MN snow at 0 deg. and sandpaper have a lot in common...

 

Are you suggesting that seeing that gray is more than wax being squeezed out (dragged out?) of the base?  That there's actually something there that needs dealing with?

 

And OP:  yes, Fiberlene Pro sheets.  Hard waxes are most of what I use (Dominator hx77 and Bullet), and they don't flake or chip, ever, except at the very tips and tails, where the base didn't get warm enough and/or the wax is a little too thick.

post #21 of 27
I'm not suggesting anything. I am merely hoping that this gray stuff, which wouldn't normally worry me a bit, but is far beyond my past experience, is due to the newness of the skis. But wondering if it's the base material that's on these or if it's the snow conditions. I guess I'll know if it's still a "problem" next season...
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I'm not suggesting anything. I am merely hoping that this gray stuff, which wouldn't normally worry me a bit, but is far beyond my past experience, is due to the newness of the skis. But wondering if it's the base material that's on these or if it's the snow conditions. I guess I'll know if it's still a "problem" next season...


When was the last time you guys had such a long string of no snow?  And didn't you say something about WMR actually making snow this year?  In similar conditions, I'm getting gray along the edges that mostly or completely brushes out, much more than previous years.  And they're definitely not new skis.

post #23 of 27
I'm sure Tony knows, but I don't recall anything like this before, and it's my twelfth season.

They always make SOME snow, but I noticed the ponds are really drawn down today. They've been doing a good job patching things and the quality of the snow that fell early on was as dense as cement, so the coverage has held.

However, sun and warmer temps are in the forecast...😦

post #24 of 27
This is all pretty interesting. Maybe the Kenjas aren't rejecting wax after all. I'm using my edges much more effectively in general and on hard snow particularly than I used to, and working on pacing the rate I change the ski's angle, so maybe that and the snow drought are what's making the the edges of the bases grey.
post #25 of 27
I have had this happen before, I think it was mostly the wax was not melted at the right temp. Do you clean and use a brush on the base before waxing? Also if it is always in the same place it may be your base has become crystallized there. From what I read only 1/2 of the Ptex on a base holds wax and the other part is not porous enough to hold it well.
post #26 of 27
The last time I waxed, I watched for this bubbling appearance. Don't have it.
post #27 of 27

Another to testify that cold weather, harder wax will do this. To me it seems to happen if the iron is just hot enough to smear it but the bases aren't hot enough for it to adhere to.  I'm always leery not to let the iron get too hot when waxing for fear of burning the bases, but if it is only barely warm enough to smear the wax cold wax can end up with that flaky result.

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