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Gaining Control from the top of the turn? - Page 14

post #391 of 417

got you.

 

I have often pondered that whole fall line to fall line approach of referencing turn phases.  I actually use it when I'm performing white pass drills or demos because it lets me stay balanced on one ski for one complete turn cycle as defined that way.  Overall I feel like I am smoother in my normal skiing when I think of a turn as being on the left edges or the right edges.  Turn starts when I engage the edge and finishes when I disengage the edge.  

 

I guess for me I intuitively like the engagement of something that is to be held for the turn duration and then disengaged.  In the case of white pass turns, my mental focus is on the engagement of balance on the one ski.  The turn starts when I establish that balance and ends when i transfer balance to the other ski...thus its fall line to fall line.  In the case of normal turns the balance transfer is not neccessarily that well defined, though its almost certainly generally closer being skis flat to skis flat.

 

But I think whatever works for someone, this is just mental model stuff.  right?

post #392 of 417
I think what she's alluding to is spelled out in the other post.
edit:
Quote:
Spent the weekend working on steepish flattened (groomed wet) ice.
At the top of the runs where it was steeper, my mind was on the top and bottom of the turns.  Results were, umm, not up to my standards.
 
At the bottom of the run fall line-to fall-line skiing kicked in and all was well.  By that I mean I was carving clean round turns at speed.
In those turns, heavy pressure and high angles identify and call attention to when the skis are pointing down the fall line, so I call it fall-line-to-fall-line skiing.

When carving is going well on less steep terrain one feels the middle of the turn more and concentrates there. It's not that tbere's no top of the turn but that one moves through that section cleanly and without incident.
On the steeper parts there's more focus on top and bottom because at bottom one struggles more bit moves through the fall line.

Watch a slalom race up close and you see the same thing. On the steeper pitches there can be lots of hacking and at bottom of the turn there's struggle to get back on line. The best ones enter cleanish make the turn and get off the edges asap. Even they struggle with sets that get crazy but mistakes on steep can be overcome.

Contrast that to say the bottom of the cousre where it's flatter. You get the rythm and feel of skiers going smooth fall line to fall line passing through the top/bottom. That's why I think Lf's description is pretty descriptive of experience.
post #393 of 417

Hmm, Tog thanks for clarifying that, it wasn't hitting me about the flatter section vs steeper section aspect. 

post #394 of 417

question, do you think this is maybe more of a cross under vs cross over thing?  Cross under is more like fall line to fall line.

post #395 of 417
When I think "fall line to fall line", it is usually in terms of pressure creation/management...

zenny
post #396 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

When I think "fall line to fall line", it is usually in terms of pressure creation/management...

zenny


Now there you go.  I like that explanation; it makes sense.

post #397 of 417
...which brings bts's cross under comment to mind. Flexing, then extending, can produce a nice fall line to fall line outcome via the creation of more of a float phase. But the timing of this is critical and so it also brings to mind "top of the turn control" in that pressuring too soon/agressivley can kill such a turn. Therefore I personally don't always equate high c control with outside pressuring...because it can also mean non-pressuring (or at least much much less) which in and of itself requires great control.

Just my 2 cents smile.gif

zenny
post #398 of 417

Yes, pressure is a bigus dealus.

 

On that steepish ice I was talking about upthread (31 degrees for the top half or more of the run), I was messing with mediumish radius turns, attempting to have no skidding at the bottom of each turn.  

I got some successful turns in, but I lost many more than I nailed.  My edges are not that sharp, but not too awfully dull either.  They would track forward just fine thank you if I timed everything right; if my timing or handling of pressure was off even a little bit, they did not want to grip once the skidding started.

 

So ... initiating the turns and manipulating the shape of the top of those turns through the fall line, with perfect timing, perfect pressure management, was critical.  That was my goal.  I was seeking control from the top of the turn.  It's a work in progress on this kind of terrain for me.

 

Once the pitch begins to lessen a little half way down the run, I can just choose the line, tip the skis and go there.  The turns change dramatically.  From that point on, I'm not thinking about initiating, nor about handling pressure, nor focusing on how long I stay in the fall line.  I don't think about the "top of the turn" because it no longer asks for any concentration.  

 

I haven't been thinking that a single minded focus on turn shape is the key to success to making the kind of turns I want on this type of terrain.  But now that I've written all this I'm thinking it may be just the thing.  It's certainly my focus for the good turns that start half way down.

post #399 of 417
Hard to say without seeing it. I suspect that on the steeper section you're pivoting a small bit due to survival instinct to keep speed down. What you're saying about clean edge engagement is really key. That engagement begins above the fall line. Down lower on the flatter terrain I bet you are not turning out of the fall line nearly as much nor concened about slowing down, which makes it a lot easier to just roll into the edges cleanly. Since you don't turn as far out of the fall line, you don't have that far to go to get into the fall line also. If you turn out of the fall line more in the steeper area then it's a much more delicate job to get clean engagement before the next fall line on the new edges. Everything had to be in place balance wise and patience not to twist the ski into the fall line
post #400 of 417

You are correct.  Exactly.  The speed factor is real, too.

I may end up giving up and sharpening those skis.  

Or buying slaloms.

post #401 of 417
That first generation Fx84 doesn't have great edge hold. Might have to accept smearing most of the turn till just after the fall line.
post #402 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Spent the weekend working on steepish flattened (groomed wet) ice.
At the top of the runs where it was steeper, my mind was on the top and bottom of the turns.  Results were, umm, not up to my standards.

At the bottom of the run fall line-to fall-line skiing kicked in and all was well.  By that I mean I was carving clean round turns at speed.
In those turns, heavy pressure and high angles identify and call attention to when the skis are pointing down the fall line, so I call it fall-line-to-fall-line skiing.
So my personal goal is to ski the tops of those runs the way I ski the bottoms, with maybe somewhat shorter radii.  
My focus when I am successful I expect will be on the fall lines, for those same reasons.

Don't have a clue about Euro.  

My last skiing day was amazing. We had fifty degree weather rain then it was 21 degrees. Makes me wonder what water injected course are like. That's the fastest I have ever skied those runs.

I was the only instructor skiing in the morning down the steps. The only thing that would have made it better would have been to bring my gs skis. Slalom skis where just not as fun. All arcing but had to be on top of it. It's all about keeping your body facing down the hill staying forward and be aggressive.
post #403 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

You are correct.  Exactly.  The speed factor is real, too.

I may end up giving up and sharpening those skis.  

Or buying slaloms.

 

  Can't say enough about a torsionally rigid ski's ability to provide good grip on hard snow--it helps them not "twist out" as much so maintaining engagement is easier, plus with the narrower waist of an sl you will be quicker edge to edge and will also have a little better alignment of the GRF/balance axis.

 

  zenny

post #404 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

That first generation Fx84 doesn't have great edge hold. Might have to accept smearing most of the turn till just after the fall line.

 

Honestly, what percentage of the benefit of edge hold do we really owe to simply keeping the edges sharp vs what otherwise is supposedly offered within the realm of ski design and materials. "Superior edge hold" is typically the number one feature marketed for just about every ski out there from Atomic to Volkl and from beginner to race. Every year it is a new spin on some type of selective dampening control, electronic vibration defusers with flashing lights. I used to refer to the K2 Mod as the "Buck Rodger's Special" as it flew out the door. There is no substitute for sharp edges. On ice, you must slice with a sharp device!

post #405 of 417
This is why some of us always argue for 3 deg side edges for advanced skiers. Even on something like the 1st gen Fx84 which is really a light touring oriented ski excellent in more soft snow conditions. It's not meant for carving steep ice and was never marketed for that. The second gen was changed fairly dramatically to make it more a resort ski. That means better edge hold and also heavier.
post #406 of 417

I think a lot of times "this ski isn't good on hard snow" really means "I didn't expect this ski to be good on hard snow, so I didn't give it a 3 degree edge."  Or even, "didn't bother to tune it."  (As a major contributing factor, at least.) 

post #407 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

This is why some of us always argue for 3 deg side edges for advanced skiers. Even on something like the 1st gen Fx84 which is really a light touring oriented ski excellent in more soft snow conditions. It's not meant for carving steep ice and was never marketed for that. The second gen was changed fairly dramatically to make it more a resort ski. That means better edge hold and also heavier.


What year was the second generation?  Are those the ones without the teardrop in the tails?

Mine are 2012; they seem to hold just fine, if I treat them right.  They do have the teardrop in the tails.

post #408 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 


What year was the second generation?  Are those the ones without the teardrop in the tails?

Mine are 2012; they seem to hold just fine, if I treat them right.  They do have the teardrop in the tails.

Well, you mention the third and most important element to skiing on ice and that is "treating your edges right" as in "Babying" your edges. Once you have a damp, torsionally stiff ski that is good on ice and your edges are sharp, the rest it up to you. The whole concept of spreading the pressure throughout the turn, having flow with movements blending to the next rather than starting and stopping, gently countering the turn and trusting your sharp edges to come around for you and pick up your CoM on its way down the fall line. I love those days when the snow is hard, the edges sharp and the "tinsleing" sound of a perfectly tracking edge embanked in grooves on hard ice only a millimeter or two deep. Powder is over rated.

post #409 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post


Powder is over rated.

Says you! smile.gif



Edited by markojp - 3/31/15 at 3:45pm
post #410 of 417
^^ I see you're using your crutches in the pow! Btw, what a nightmare. You can barely breathe with all that snow. Japan?
post #411 of 417

it was horrible. I couldn't see well enough to find a groomer all day. :)

post #412 of 417

I live in the East so I have to at least pretend that pow is over rated. However, your photo brings immediate demise to that notion. How rude of you. Because your technique cannot be seen at all, it really doesn't conform to the theme of this forum category and I suggest it be taken down by the moderator. Joking of course. As only some may appreciate, riding those dampened legs under full compliance with every nuance of vertical undulate and inscribing delicate arcs over a relentlessly unforgiving surface density will have to be my epic day.  

post #413 of 417

Would you call this "carving powder" ? Ted just posted it on fb - the weight sure looks to be mostly on the outside ski... eh?

 

post #414 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Would you call this "carving powder" ? Ted just posted it on fb - the weight sure looks to be mostly on the outside ski... eh?

 

Is that a reverse side cut ski?

post #415 of 417


its a "next years ski" from Head

post #416 of 417

It's the 'A Star'... it's in the big mountain collection (but not in this year's catalogue) and was designed for Jaimes Heim and co.... Not much sidecut... it's made to go fast. Think more like a Blizzard Bodacious than a Super 7 or Cycllic. 

post #417 of 417

Falline To Falline Turn:  Something straightliners do when someone/something gets in their way. 

 

 

Well, at least the someone/something hopes the straightliner is able to pull it off.  

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