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Racing ski advice - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Thread Starter 

Thanks for all the ideas .. The Atomic redster XT (maybe the non FIS GS as well?) and Volkl Racetiger GS UVO, you guys mentioned sound like good candidates. I will try them if I get a chance. 

post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
 

Thanks for all the ideas .. The Atomic redster XT (maybe the non FIS GS as well?) and Volkl Racetiger GS UVO, you guys mentioned sound like good candidates. I will try them if I get a chance. 

 

The Atomic Redster GS 3.0 is great I think for that person not used to gates.  If your lines are not as crisp it will give you an easy way to recover as it has a very aggressive side cut.  It would also be a much more fun all around ski.  I would probably stay away personally from the XT since the GS 3.0 is already around a 17m radius at a 180 length.  That is very aggressive

 

  The Volkl Racetiger UVO is also a great ski with a larger side cut so it will not be as easy to recover.  It will still be a great ski and a 19 m radius is still fairly easy to get around gates.  I think it has more energy than the Atomic and feels more like a longer turning ski.  I ended up giving a lesson on it to a beginner.  It was not fun, but the ski will initialize fairly easy on flats.  This is something most GS skis do not do well.

 

  Either one is a good choice just be careful when picking out the Atomic as people have noted they look pretty much like FIS GS ski.  So when picking out a GS ski always look for the radius if its marked.

post #33 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 

 

  That was the exact point I was making.  Cheaters do not have the same plates as FIS models.  They may have some sort of floating binding or two plates they sit on but its not the world cup plates.  It is also very easy to see and identify a FIS ski easy that way.

 

  The only exception I see is that Blizzard which makes me want to try it.  Other than that the masters skis have the plates which are used on FIS models.  So the Fischer, and the Rossignol Hero Master... (maybe other masters I don't know about??)

You don't NEED a WC plate for his type of racing.  All he needs is a decent 17-21M GS ski and there are ...a BUNCH of them.  2012 year old Atomic D2's can be had for $299 WITH bindings.  2013 Blizzards with a (non-WC) race plate can be picked up off eBay for $225, Fischer's...etc..

Bottom line is ..."If you are a good aggressive skier... ANY modern ski will be good enough".(with the correct radius). and they are "cheap enough" IF he is willing to buy new, old stock which he SHOULD based on his requirements.  No point in putting him on a $899 pair of boards or even demoing those types of things,  It's just not necessary

 

Here's a link to a pair of 2014 Nordica GS's (21m radius) that I was considering.  $389 WITH Marker 12's (or $289 without bindings) which should be sufficent for your needs.  I passed on them because I am 215lbs and my bindings are set to 11.5... Nice guy selling them too (no relation as I only exchanged a few eBay messages)...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201281009515?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

post #34 of 56
Yep the point was to find some cheaters. Ironic enough I was looking at those same skis myself on eBay. Have you been on those before and what are your thoughts on them? I probably would have got them had I tried them and they had a 180cm available. I still want to try them as I have heard wonderful things about them.

I just purchased a the Rossi master for about the same price as those.
post #35 of 56

As trailtrimmer noted, talk to the guys in your league and find out what seems to work at YOUR race hill.

 

And, as Jonlevvy noted, it's worth repeating the point that SL skis can work really well in GS courses at many venues, while the opposite is generally not often true, so if you want to do both, buy a slightly longer SL ski.

 

If your GS courses are on a shorter, flatter slope, they are sometimes set a bit tighter than a true GS course, in which case an SL ski can often be your friend.

post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRPufnStf View Post
 

As trailtrimmer noted, talk to the guys in your league and find out what seems to work at YOUR race hill.

 

And, as Jonlevvy noted, it's worth repeating the point that SL skis can work really well in GS courses at many venues, while the opposite is generally not often true, so if you want to do both, buy a slightly longer SL ski.

 

If your GS courses are on a shorter, flatter slope, they are sometimes set a bit tighter than a true GS course, in which case an SL ski can often be your friend.

 

  Also if you decide to get slalom skis, just know you will be slower than on a GS ski.  There are reasons you get a GS ski for a GS course.


Edited by utahsaint - 3/7/15 at 6:31pm
post #37 of 56

FWIW, Rossi makes three GS-type racing skis a consumer can buy: The FIS GS, the FIS GS Racing (for U16's), and the Master. While the boilerplate description is identical for all three, including the R20 plate, the dimensions are different for each.

 

But IMHO anyone who thinks that the three are identical except for those dimensions has been off their meds too long. They differ in stiffness. Think about it; will a U16 be as stiff as an adult? Could be the ski body or could be the plate; just because they're all called a R20 doesn't mean they're all identical in flex. Rossi used to make this clear in its descriptions, now they let it go, probably for marketing purposes. 

 

Which works: I think many of us Masters or club types want to believe that we're on real full on WC skis, just trimmed, and when the boilerplate reads the same, the top sheets are as cool, the plate looks the same, we eagerly buy in.  ;) 

post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
 

FWIW, Rossi makes three GS-type racing skis a consumer can buy: The FIS GS, the FIS GS Racing (for U16's), and the Master. While the boilerplate description is identical for all three, including the R20 plate, the dimensions are different for each.

 

But IMHO anyone who thinks that the three are identical except for those dimensions has been off their meds too long. They differ in stiffness. Think about it; will a U16 be as stiff as an adult? Could be the ski body or could be the plate; just because they're all called a R20 doesn't mean they're all identical in flex. Rossi used to make this clear in its descriptions, now they let it go, probably for marketing purposes. 

 

Which works: I think many of us Masters or club types want to believe that we're on real full on WC skis, just trimmed, and when the boilerplate reads the same, the top sheets are as cool, the plate looks the same, we eagerly buy in.  ;) 

 

  I don't know if this was a jab at me but, the hope was to get off WC skis and get to a shorter, softer ski.  I was on a pair of Volkl WC FIS skis before this and the purpose was to get an easier pair for Nastar.  As you mentioned the flex is very soft.  I have heard wonderful things around the Fischer Masters as well and have yet to try them.    I probably should have gone more to the Fischer since our pace setter is on a 23 - 25 m ski.  As someone mentioned its all about picking a ski close to the pace setter.  The problem with that idea is that I want to ski at other areas so I went with a shorter radius.  Also my hope was to be on something easier to turn than a 23-25m ski.  So on both counts your off.  I find the Master more stable (and fun) than any other 17m - 19m ski that I have been on. 

post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post

FWIW, Rossi makes three GS-type racing skis a consumer can buy: The FIS GS, the FIS GS Racing (for U16's), and the Master. While the boilerplate description is identical for all three, including the R20 plate, the dimensions are different for each.

But IMHO anyone who thinks that the three are identical except for those dimensions has been off their meds too long. They differ in stiffness. Think about it; will a U16 be as stiff as an adult? Could be the ski body or could be the plate; just because they're all called a R20 doesn't mean they're all identical in flex. Rossi used to make this clear in its descriptions, now they let it go, probably for marketing purposes. 

Which works: I think many of us Masters or club types want to believe that we're on real full on WC skis, just trimmed, and when the boilerplate reads the same, the top sheets are as cool, the plate looks the same, we eagerly buy in.  wink.gif  
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post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 

 I don't know if this was a jab at me but,  

Not a jab at you at all. Although I come across as pedantic, when I said "us" or "we" I was making fun of myself as much as anyone. Comes with age...

post #41 of 56
I do hate the name cheater or beer league ski. I wish they would come up with a better name. I know some very serious athletes that are amazing skiers. The reason we use cheaters has more to do with the radius and speeds we go. Of course we are not world cup athletes but where not cheating either. Sorry to be so far off topic...
post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
 

You don't NEED a WC plate for his type of racing.  All he needs is a decent 17-21M GS ski and there are ...a BUNCH of them.  2012 year old Atomic D2's can be had for $299 WITH bindings. 

 

Those $299 176cm Atomics on ebay are the best deal in race skis right now.  I'm a 185 lb. 6' tall platinum racer and they work great for medium to loose course sets and have more control on the steeps than a typical cheater.  

post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utagonian View Post

Do the cheaters have the same plates as the FIS models?  Most probably do not.  But they do have race plates for the most part.  

I doubt any of the skis sold to the public have the same plate (or any thing else) as is being used on the World Cup but I could be wrong.

The Volkl skis I linked to include the 176/23 and 183/23, I guess you could call them "masters" but I think any non-FIS radius is a "cheater"

The Rossi Hero Master does, as does the Blizzard WRC/2016 Nordica Doberman non FIS GS.
post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post
 

 

  Also if you decide to get slalom skis, just know you will be slower than on a GS ski.  There are reasons you get a GS ski for a GS course.

Not necessarily true.  It REALLY depends on the hill and HOW they set the course.  In many of these NASTAR-type GS courses, the gates are set SIGNIFICANTLY tighter than what a REAL GS course shold be set too.  As an example, I was skiing a PHENOMIAL pair of 23m GS Fischer's that SS had sold me and can "bend them" to a 19m or 20m turn "at speed".  On a recent race, I was flat out FLYING down the run carving up the course like a pacesetter (likely close to their time) through 3/4th of the course only to run into two gates set @ 16.5m & 15m's respecitively (measured afterwards) which literally "ate my lunch" when running at those speeds.  I DID make both gates but literally had to STOP in the middle of the course on one and an extreme stivot turn bouncing off my butt to make the next.  Needless to say, a 23m GS on that particular course was...well, nearly suicide.

 

After that experience I approached our team's coach, currently holds a 3.5 HCDP & is one of our pacesetters asking for his guidance regarding my technique or if it might be an equipment issue.  He stated that my technique was solid but the speed I was carrying into that final quarter of the run was never going to work ...on THOSE skis because the radius was simply too much.  He was actually surprised I didn't crash out.  He then stated that "The majority of our GS course in our league (21 cities in the southeast) are set between 17m and 21m".  He then shared with me that ALL of the pacesetters either use a GS ski between 17m and 21m or they use their SL skis.  I ran the next GS event using my SL skis and even though I had moved up 2 flights (about 5 HDCP lower than normal for me), I was able to win my GS flight...easily on my new (to me) '14 Nordica SLs.

 

So, the bottom line is that ... it depends on the hill and set as to whether you will do better with a GS or not.  Having stated that, I am ONLY taking my SL skis to nationals but WILL be buying a 17m to 21m GS ski next year.  It doesn't mean that I will always ski the GS on our GS courses.  If I see a similar situation with 2 or 3 tight gates in the mix on any GS course, I will instantly swap them out for my SL's that I will have in my car as I don't like to "back off" on ANY course.  as always YMMV


Edited by ndabunka - 3/13/15 at 3:57pm
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
 

Not necessarily true.  It REALLY depends on the hill and HOW they set the course.  In many of these NASTAR-type GS courses, the gates are set SIGNIFICANTLY tighter than what a REAL GS course shold be set too.  As an example, I was skiing a PHENOMIAL pair of 23m GS Fischer's that SS had sold me and can "bend them" to a 19m or 20m turn "at speed".  On a recent race, I was flat out FLYING down the run carving up the course like a pacesetter (likely close to their time) through 3/4th of the course only to run into two gates set @ 16.5m & 15m's respecitively (measured afterwards) which literally "ate my lunch" when running at those speeds.  I DID make both gates but literally had to STOP in the middle of the course on one and an extreme stivot turn bouncing off my butt to make the next.  Needless to say, a 23m GS on that particular course was...well, nearly suicide.

 

After that experience I approached our team's coach, currently holds a 3.5 HCDP & is one of our pacesetters asking for his guidance regarding my technique or if it might be an equipment issue.  He stated that my technique was sold but the speed I was carrying into that final quarter of the run was never going to work ...on THOSE skis because the radius was simply too much.  He was actually surprised I didn't crash out.  He then stated that "The majority of our GS course in our league (21 cities in the southeast) are set between 17m and 21m".  He then shared with me that ALL of the pacesetters either use a GS ski between 17m and 21m or they use their SL skis.  I ran the next GS event using my SL skis and even though I had moved up 2 flights (about 5 HDCP lower than normal for me), I was able to win my GS flight...easily on my new (to me) '14 Nordica SLs.

 

So, the bottom line is that ... it depends on the hill and set as to whether you will do better with a GS or not.  Having stated that, I am ONLY taking my SL skis to nationals but WILL be buying a 17m to 21m GS ski next year.  It doesn't mean that I will always ski the GS on our GS courses.  If I see a similar situation with 2 or 3 tight gates in the mix on any GS course, I will instantly swap them out for my SL's that I will have in my car as I don't like to "back off" on ANY course.  as always YMMV

 

 

  Good point but what?  A slalom ski will have a sidecut around 12-14m  quite a long shot from a 17-21m distance.  That means if you use your slalom ski the carve is going to end up jagged, and you will end up with more drag.  As someone else stated find out what the pace setters are using and use those skis.  Usually they will be on 17-21 m skis as you stated.  Ironic enough the league I am joining is on 23 -25m skis. 

 

  Try some GS turns on a slalom ski as well (its easy) but look at the tracks.  I have run slalom skis before on a gs course with unlimited runs.  What I found was that my times were not consistent by any means and slower.  My thought is that it has a lot to do with the sidecut more than anything else.  With a GS ski on a GS course all my times end up within 1 second.  I would state though if it works for you then keep doing it.  In the past I have been on 27m skis and used them everywhere in the Mid West.  I never had a problem getting them around the gates and they didn't have a race plate which made them very difficult on flats.

post #46 of 56

I guess the point is that on SL's I can make a "easy" carved turn and keep my speed up on the spread out GS course or push them slightly harder to make tight (15-16.5m) turns whereas a 27m GS ski trying to make back-2-back gates with a COMBINED radius of that value was nearly impossible (for me).  If your courses are 23m than a 27m could work well for you.

 

Those 16.5m & 15m gates didn't just "bite me", they also "bit" about 40% of the Flight 1 pacesetters (Handicaps ranging from 3.2 to 8.7) so, I guess, those on the 21m GS skis also had problems whereas the Pacesetters running the 17m GS and/or 12/13m SL's were able to get good times.

 

Hey, I am a 52 year old, 30hdcp silver racer who has only been racing for 2 years (recently) so I still have a LOT to learn

post #47 of 56

^^^ Could not agree with you more ndabunka, but did not want to engage in an internet war.

 

To the point, I've won many GS races of the type that you kind of described as "tighter than a real GS course" on slalom skis.

 

Horses for courses!

post #48 of 56

I consider everyone on here as a friend whom I can learn from so no "internet wars" from my perspective and hopefully that is the same for others in this thread.  I would love the opportunity to meet (and learn) from anyone and everyone here.

post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
 

I guess the point is that on SL's I can make a "easy" carved turn and keep my speed up on the spread out GS course or push them slightly harder to make tight (15-16.5m) turns whereas a 27m GS ski trying to make back-2-back gates with a COMBINED radius of that value was nearly impossible (for me).  If your courses are 23m than a 27m could work well for you.

 

Those 16.5m & 15m gates didn't just "bite me", they also "bit" about 40% of the Flight 1 pacesetters (Handicaps ranging from 3.2 to 8.7) so, I guess, those on the 21m GS skis also had problems whereas the Pacesetters running the 17m GS and/or 12/13m SL's were able to get good times.

 

Hey, I am a 52 year old, 30hdcp silver racer who has only been racing for 2 years (recently) so I still have a LOT to learn

 

  Here is my thought and maybe this won't make sense to people who have not used graphics programs.  I see a pen tool as a slalom ski.  Try drawing a nice arc with that.  You never will, it ends up jagged, which is exactly like a slalom ski.  In order for that 12-14m slalom ski to carve a 17-25m curve you have to hold it there and not really press into it.  A little too much forward pressure and you end up carving too much.  Its just too easy to over carve or not hold on a steady nice curve.  Try it with your slalom ski, carve and look at the tracks it will surprise you.  I know when I did I found the carve was clean but also jagged at points. 

 

  Now a GS ski is like a line tool with anchor points.   Its easy to carve a clean GS turn that is longer than what a slalom ski can do cleanly.  Not trying to start an internet war either just trying to explain the difference.  Its easy to turn a slalom ski that is what they are made for.  Easy initiation, quick turns, fast transitions and lots of them.  A GS ski is made for mid length turns and will hold so much better at angles and speed on ice.  They are confidence builders for speed and sweeping turn.  These used to be the ski of choice for everyone because they were the best cruiser skis.

 

  I have been running around 16 - 18 hdcp platinum with my WC 187cm FIS 27m skis.  The first gates always kill me more than the tighter gates in the mid to end of the races.  When the tighter gates come up I have enough speed to lean into the ski hard enough to make the turn.  Also I have taken a 23m FIS GS ski through a slalom course.  It was difficult and I built up a ton of speed but toward the bottom ran into issues like what you are stating.  Hit a gate that was a little too tight last year that way and ended up with my weight in the wrong spot.  Had to hike back around and still got a gold.

 

  If you want an easy ski I would more or less recommend at least a middle ground like a 17m Atomic 3.0 GS or the 15.5m Atomic XT.  Either one of those will be very fast initiation and have a faster speed in a GS course than a slalom ski.  I would actually lean more toward using an all around ski like the Fischer Progressor over a slalom ski in a GS course.  Sorry it just drives me crazy the notion for so many reasons.  My slalom ski is also around 165cm where as my GS ski is now 180 but I used to run 187.  There just different tools with a different purpose... (some crazy rant that goes on and on and on)


Edited by utahsaint - 3/14/15 at 9:48pm
post #50 of 56
So for giggles I ran some gs gates today. It was not timed just for fun. So I brought out my slalom and gs skis. It's pretty much as I stated. Could not carve a non jagged line with my slalom ski. Wish I took some pictures of the tracks. I still believe you cannot carve a slalom ski clean on a gs course.
post #51 of 56

Where in the world are you running GS gates when it is in the 50's?  Some waterskis might be a better tool for the local snow conditions.

post #52 of 56
Temps in the 50s here in CO and the racing conditions are just fine. Snow temps are -1C at noon. Firm in the morning and soft in the afternoon.
post #53 of 56

Yes, but UtahSaint is in MN (unless out of town).  Our ski hills are melting big time

post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post

I am a long time Volkl fan so I'll ask within their range of skis. I appreciate any other brand/model recommendations as well.

the  SL stock World Cup  with or without UVO
If you decide to go with WC SL's, I have a pair for sale.

http://www.epicski.com/t/133375/fs-2013-volkl-racetiger-wc-sl-165-marker-comp-16s#post_1851662
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by utahsaint View Post

I do hate the name cheater or beer league ski. I wish they would come up with a better name. I know some very serious athletes that are amazing skiers. The reason we use cheaters has more to do with the radius and speeds we go. Of course we are not world cup athletes but where not cheating either. Sorry to be so far off topic...
champagne league..
post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjeep View Post

Yes, but UtahSaint is in MN (unless out of town).  Our ski hills are melting big time

Yes they have melted big time. Going to Afton today and was at Wild yesterday. I am shocked that any snow remains but ski areas are still open. Afton is setting up for the last nastar today.
Edited by utahsaint - 3/15/15 at 8:16am
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