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Bump MA request

post #1 of 34
Thread Starter 
Finally got a half decent video. These machine seeded bumps threw me off a bit, because the ones to my left are big with steep face, while the ones on my right are smaller and gradual.

Anyway, the problems I see is I'm not doing enough of the 2nd half of back peddle to push ski down and back, and I could bend legs more to absorb better (it felt like I was bending a lot more).

Thoughts?
post #2 of 34

JZ,

 

I once saw a guy at Killington keep his skis totally locked together and "totally flat" (or so it looked) to the snow surface and just Hoover his skis to the bumps. It was awe inspiring skiing. It was also like your run here, but on steroids. I would not have thought it possible if I had not seen it and have not seen anything like it since. But if that is your goal, you are on the right track. I can only suggest faster feet and, as you suspected, a stronger Hoover even more back peddling.

 

Personally I'd recommend more steering and edging. Look at TreeFiter's clip. Combine both of your strong movements together and yo'll have some really strong bump skiing. There's very little turn shape for speed control here. You don't have to have it, but if you did, then you'd need less absorption vs more. Often times with these kinds of bumps I'll use "scarving" as a component of speed control. Steering the skis just a tiny bit off line form the direction of travel and using just a tiny bit of edge produces a tiny little bit of continuous mini skidding creates a sensation of the skis being glued to the snow. Suggested drills are pivot slips and GS turns in the bumps.

 

The pros can take the technique you are using here up another notch by reducing absorption to increase speed. Instead of travelling through the deepest troughs, they will stay on the sides of the troughs using the sides like steps to get down the run. But you have to be going fast enough to get from the side of one mogul to the side of another one without falling into the trough in between. Alternatively they will use more strength, muscle speed and range of motion to get more back peddling. Been to the gym lately?

post #3 of 34

JZ

 

I watch the video briefly and saw two small issues:

 

1) Your CoM is a slightly up the hill on some of your turns as the skis engage the bump itself. 

 

2) The timing of your hands (and pole reach) tends to be late and could be more aggressive (IMO). This could possibly help the CoM issue which also may be timing related. 

 

Good luck. 

post #4 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

JZ,

Personally I'd recommend more steering and edging. Look at TreeFiter's clip. Combine both of your strong movements together and yo'll have some really strong bump skiing. There's very little turn shape for speed control here. You don't have to have it, but if you did, then you'd need less absorption vs more. Often times with these kinds of bumps I'll use "scarving" as a component of speed control. Steering the skis just a tiny bit off line form the direction of travel and using just a tiny bit of edge produces a tiny little bit of continuous mini skidding creates a sensation of the skis being glued to the snow. Suggested drills are pivot slips and GS turns in the bumps.

I was only able to link turns in mogul from end of last season, so I don't have a specific goal other than be able to do it. By steering and edging, and treefiter's video, I take steering and edging means making ski's path more rounded and more across the fall line, while still going down the zipperline path? In relation to what you posted in that thread, I found on bumps with very steep face, if I turn the skis more during absorption I get too much of the crashing sensation and it tend to throw me off balance, maybe I need to absorb faster? I can't do GS turns in bumps yet, at least not in these tight and deep machine made bumps.

Hopping over trough is beyond me at this moment, some day. biggrin.gif




Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

JZ

I watch the video briefly and saw two small issues:

1) Your CoM is a slightly up the hill on some of your turns as the skis engage the bump itself. 

2) The timing of your hands (and pole reach) tends to be late and could be more aggressive (IMO). This could possibly help the CoM issue which also may be timing related. 

Good luck. 

I knew my hands are a bit wild, but didn't know about the late issue, will pay attention to hands and try earlier pole reach next time. I'm still at the stage if I remember one thing, I tend to forget something else.
post #5 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post



I knew my hands are a bit wild, but didn't know about the late issue, will pay attention to hands and try earlier pole reach next time. I'm still at the stage if I remember one thing, I tend to forget something else.

I'd say focus on your timing and hands for now. Everything else is so good that I think the rest will follow, or at least show you the path to the next level. BTW... I RARELY talk about hands unless I think focusing on them can really help. I think this is one of those times.  

 

Buena suerte. 

post #6 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

JZ,

Personally I'd recommend more steering and edging. Look at TreeFiter's clip. Combine both of your strong movements together and yo'll have some really strong bump skiing. There's very little turn shape for speed control here. You don't have to have it, but if you did, then you'd need less absorption vs more. Often times with these kinds of bumps I'll use "scarving" as a component of speed control. Steering the skis just a tiny bit off line form the direction of travel and using just a tiny bit of edge produces a tiny little bit of continuous mini skidding creates a sensation of the skis being glued to the snow. Suggested drills are pivot slips and GS turns in the bumps.

I was only able to link turns in mogul from end of last season, so I don't have a specific goal other than be able to do it. By steering and edging, and treefiter's video, I take steering and edging means making ski's path more rounded and more across the fall line, while still going down the zipperline path? In relation to what you posted in that thread, I found on bumps with very steep face, if I turn the skis more during absorption I get too much of the crashing sensation and it tend to throw me off balance, maybe I need to absorb faster? I can't do GS turns in bumps yet, at least not in these tight and deep machine made bumps.

Hopping over trough is beyond me at this moment, some day. biggrin.gif

 

 

Think of the concept of using turn shape to control speed  on groomed snow as opposed to skidding. In your bump turns you are also using absorption to control speed. But you are using very little skidding and very little turning of the skis out of the fall line. There is nothing wrong with this. But if you want more control it has to come from one of those 3 areas. It's going to be a lot harder to get more out of something you are already doing well than to get more out of choices you are not doing much of.

 

It does not matter much if you are making round turns, but only the very small arc of the circle that is near the fall line. Think of a round clock face with 12:00 pointing uphill and 6:00 pointing downhill. If your right turn follows the clock face from 2:30 -3:30 (and your left from 9:30 - 8:30), your turns are round but you won't get much speed control even if your skidding vs carving. Your belt can still travel the zipperline path whether your skis are turning from 2:30 - 3:30 or from 1:00 to 5:00. To get that 1:00 - 5:00 ski path your legs are going to need to get out from underneath your belt. If you do that you are automatically going to get on edge more. That will give you more control whether you are skidding or carving.

 

If you are feeling too much impact from the bumps, you have options. It may seem counter intuitive, but the faster you go, the less you need absorption/impact/crashing to slow you down. The whole reason you get that crashing sensation is from deceleration. The less you try to slow down, the less deceleration/crashing sensation you feel. Ok, for most folks who don't aspire to be pro mogul skiers, going faster is probably not on the option menu. If you only are using absorption to control speed, then you need to lengthen the time of absorption in order to reduce the deceleration/sensation of crashing. Here is a typical Wayne Wong photo:

From this position, imagine Wayne extending his legs way out in front of him to plant them on the face of the next bump down. That would give him a lot more time to absorb the bump then having his feet and his belt arrive at the bump more at the same time. Ok, for more most folks, doing Wayne Wong impersonations is not on the option menu either. You could go slower to start with. If you never get going fast, you never have to slow down much. As much as this falls in to the "well, Duh!" category of advice, there are not so obvious ways of going extremely slow even in a steep bump run. But if we're not going to use absorption, that leaves turning and skidding as your only other options. And there are lots of options for where and how you do your turning and/or skidding. Before I scare too many people about skidding, I'm not talking about the same skidding we see intermediates making on the groomed trails. As I mentioned in the other thread, one only needs a tiny little bit of orientation of the skis out of the direction of travel to cause enough skidding to make a huge difference for speed control. If you're going to use skidding to help control speed, it helps to do it on softer snow. So the more time you spend on the uphill and downhill faces of the bumps and the less time you spend in the troughs, the better. And you'll find you get more speed control bang for the buck skidding on an uphill face than a downhill face, but using both is better than just using one or the other from an efficiency aspect (style is another issue). In general, the more you turn your skis out of the fall line, the more speed control you are going to get. So keeping skidding and absorption the same, the more of the "clock face" that your skis travel in each turn, the more speed control you are going to get. Keep in mind that the soft snow and uphill/downhill face issues work for turn shape as well. My guess is you're not finding the right blend of these options to give enough speed control to avoid the crashing sensation, but not so much as to take away from the zipperline direction of travel. Welcome to the Holy Grail of bump skiing!

 

One of the things that may help is experience and tactics. Growing your bag of tricks to deal with unique situations like spines, deep troughs, gaps, ice spots, double bumps, close outs, etc. I often talk about having a Plan A, B and C available for any bump problem.  Each different plan involves a different blend of absorption, turning and skidding. As you approach a trouble bump you are working out which plan to choose. As you execute the plan, you are remapping the bump field in front of you to find a set of bumps you can ski on automatic while you spot the trouble bump that set ends on. That gives you another time slot to develop Plan A, B and C. But if you can't blend your options at will, the number of plans you have available for problem solving gets reduced quickly and Plan D (crashing into the bump) becomes your go to option.

post #7 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thanks Rusty, that's a very good and detailed description. I will pay attention to turn shape and see what I can Do with it. hopefully I can still get a month of practice this season.
post #8 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Finally got a half decent video. These machine seeded bumps threw me off a bit, because the ones to my left are big with steep face, while the ones on my right are smaller and gradual.

Anyway, the problems I see is I'm not doing enough of the 2nd half of back peddle to push ski down and back, and I could bend legs more to absorb better (it felt like I was bending a lot more).

Thoughts?
 

 

you're looking down at your feet of the approaching bump, thats making you bend at the waist which limits your absorption. keep your head up and out to 3-5 bumps ahead.

 

along with adding more steering in the bumps you might try seeking out flat light conditions to get use to feeling the snow.

post #9 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack97 View Post

you're looking down at your feet of the approaching bump, thats making you bend at the waist which limits your absorption. keep your head up and out to 3-5 bumps ahead.

along with adding more steering in the bumps you might try seeking out flat light conditions to get use to feeling the snow.

Yeah, that's something has to be solved by more mileage. At the moment I'm not good/confident enough to not look at the bump I'm skiing on if it's one of those big steep ones.
post #10 of 34
Hi jzmtl,

Nice skiing! Thanks for sharing.

How is your range of flexion? ...do you feel you can flex deeply and stay balanced fore/aft (in your boots but without skis on for example)?

You have probably seen these images before on EpicSki. I get the feeling of the yellow skier below when watching your video.


Image by Bob Barnes:
7a83f1e0_400x400px-9db58330_ForwardLeangrid.jpeg


Stickmen below correspond to Bob's graphic above...
5b2373c1_BobsBackPedalInBalancedBoot.gif

Two versions of yellow guy...
LL

...loses balance out the back door when attempting to flex deeply
3a29483e_BackPedalUprightBootOutBack.gif

d2a6f87d_BackPedalFwdLeanBoot.gif
post #11 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


 At the moment I'm not good/confident enough to not look at the bump I'm skiing on if it's one of those big steep ones.

 

pivot slips in the bumps, this will get you into steering and aiming the center part of the ski at the various sections of the shoulder of the upcoming bump. i have seen/use another progression where you make hockey stops at the spot of the shoulder you are aiming at. always keep your head up, trust your peripheral vision and the feel of the snow.

 

below is a vid where they are slipping the bump, starting @ .15

 

 

post #12 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

Hi jzmtl,

Nice skiing! Thanks for sharing.

How is your range of flexion? ...do you feel you can flex deeply and stay balanced fore/aft (in your boots but without skis on for example)?

You have probably seen these images before on EpicSki. I get the feeling of the yellow skier below when watching your video.

I noticed the same thing too, especially on one of the bigger bumps my upper body folds while knee doesn't flex much. At the moment I'm not sure if it's because of boot issue or that I'm not quick enough with my legs. I'll try the flex without ski later and see if I can be quicker with flexing knee to absorb. Hopefully I can get a new video in a week or two to see if anything has changed.
post #13 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

I'd say focus on your timing and hands for now. Everything else is so good that I think the rest will follow, or at least show you the path to the next level. BTW... I RARELY talk about hands unless I think focusing on them can really help. I think this is one of those times.  

 

Buena suerte. 

 

Nice skiing! I would strongly agree with vin's recommendation to work on your arms. Arms affect your balance and your ability to plant, which affects your turn entry. When your elbows move back into your chest you get back. Keep the arms just at the bottom of your field of vision and out from your chest. 

 

If the bumps aren't bulletproof, use the pole plant to stabilize yourself, and get planting a bit earlier. 

post #14 of 34
Thread Starter 
Thanks! I went to try the mogul again tonight but they plowed it and replaced with much smaller ones, hopmad.gif probably in preparation for spring break next week. On the up side they aren't lopsided anymore and hopefully after a week of kids slipping through the trough they'll grow to previous size.
post #15 of 34
Thread Starter 
New video. biggrin.gif The bumps are huge, those spring break kids did a find job of plowing troughs into pits. I tried to incorporate previously mentioned things like hands position and turn ski more. I think my problem is my retraction is a half step late so my upper body is pushed back by bumps, so I need to be more proactive with it.

The 2nd run seems to be better (despite the failed jump redface.gif ), skip to 1:20.
post #16 of 34
Hi jzmtl,

Nice footwork!

I am still seeing yellow stick man in both those runs. Just like yellow stick man you appear limited in being able to flex deeply and we see a noticeable rise of the CoM as a result over each mogul. Also like yellow stick man, when you land both jumps and do flex deeply you lose your balance aft.

To get the footwork even more active: Try the same run with no poles and absorb each mogul completely so there is no rise of the CoM when cresting over the mogul. Likewise, extend completely into each trough so there is no fall of the CoM either. So, if we cover your legs while watching the video it looks like you are riding an escalator down.

I like the side view of the video. Maybe add in a segment of head-on as well. Hard to see the torso against the dark background with dark jacket, but might be easier on a real screen instead of this tablet; light/bright color jacket with the green pants would help to show more detail on video.

Thanks for sharing!
post #17 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

Hi jzmtl,


I am still seeing yellow stick man in both those runs. Just like yellow stick man you appear limited in being able to flex deeply and we see a noticeable rise of the CoM as a result over each mogul. Also like yellow stick man, when you land both jumps and do flex deeply you lose your balance aft.

Thanks. I took some photos while trying to flex, and I think you could be right. This is how much I can flex without falling, but definitely already on my heels. If I were to maintain a somewhat centered balance, then my thigh is about parallel with floor.

flex_zpsgjdll6c4.jpg~original
post #18 of 34
Those are pretty nice turns. Pretty good mechanics, good speed control and good anticipation of the upcoming bumps. I like the absorbtion / extension and continued snow ski contact keeping you in control of your own destiny. Nice rythmn and timing. It's not high speed zipper line bumping but not all of us want or need to be able to do those. Thanks for sharing.
post #19 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

Those are pretty nice turns. Pretty good mechanics, good speed control and good anticipation of the upcoming bumps. I like the absorbtion / extension and continued snow ski contact keeping you in control of your own destiny. Nice rythmn and timing. It's not high speed zipper line bumping but not all of us want or need to be able to do those. Thanks for sharing.

I don't think I'll ever try those high speed bumps lol, maybe my body could take them 10 years ago but now I think my legs would fly off in different directions if I did.
post #20 of 34
Interesting image.

What happens if you relax your power strap and top buckles one notch and try that again?

Then try it with a small amount of heel lift. Then try it with a small amount of toe lift under your boots.

What's your dorsi flexion like (ankle range of motion) How stiff are those boots? What skis/bindings are you on.

DC
post #21 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

Interesting image.

What happens if you relax your power strap and top buckles one notch and try that again?

Then try it with a small amount of heel lift. Then try it with a small amount of toe lift under your boots.

What's your dorsi flexion like (ankle range of motion) How stiff are those boots? What skis/bindings are you on.

DC

Top buckle (and other three) is already at last notch, I put the included spoiler in so cuff is pretty snug. Will try the lift later.

Dorsiflexion is, er, normal I think? Never felt limiting for anything else.

Boots are Technica inferno blaze 110, skis are Head rev80 pro in 177 with PR11 bindings. (I'm a tad over 6' and 195 lb)
post #22 of 34
I'm trying to see if softening your boot will allow you to flex your boot better.

Test for dorsiflexion. Sit in a chair where you can set your back at 90degrees to the floor, your thighs parallel to the floor and your shins 90 degrees to the floor. Feet flat..

Then lift your fore foot as high as you can while keeping your heel on the ground. Average angle 11-16 degrees..

FYI the head PRD bindings on the system rail has quite a bit of ramp. Try that same squat test while in the ski and see how it feels.

DC
post #23 of 34
Hi jzmtl,

That image looks good. As you say, would be nice to be able to flex that far and remain centered ...and to do so easily, moving from extended to flexed freely. If your bindings have positive delta then you might be there already and just a matter of learning the movements ...taking the poles away may be just what you need!

[edit: Would definitely explore what dchan is suggesting]
post #24 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

I'm trying to see if softening your boot will allow you to flex your boot better.

Test for dorsiflexion. Sit in a chair where you can set your back at 90degrees to the floor, your thighs parallel to the floor and your shins 90 degrees to the floor. Feet flat..

Then lift your fore foot as high as you can while keeping your heel on the ground. Average angle 11-16 degrees..

FYI the head PRD bindings on the system rail has quite a bit of ramp. Try that same squat test while in the ski and see how it feels.

DC

Thanks for the info on the bindings, I will try it with skis on next time and see how it goes.

Will explore unbuckle top one and lift etc. on Monday and report back. smile.gif

If I can find some smaller bumps I will try without poles, but don't think I can manage in those.
Edited by jzmtl - 3/7/15 at 8:28pm
post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Thanks. I took some photos while trying to flex, and I think you could be right. This is how much I can flex without falling, but definitely already on my heels. If I were to maintain a somewhat centered balance, then my thigh is about parallel with floor.

flex_zpsgjdll6c4.jpg~original


The image above suggests you *have* the range of motion but i don't think you are accessing

that much of it your video clips - note that your femur is essentially parallel to the floor but

it doesn't get parallel to the snow in the clips.  (like the "yellow man")

 

Greater absorbption on the front side will let the feet "stall" momentarily as the hip pass

over in a deeply flexed position, then its feet down and hips up on the backside.

 

While your arms are well in front, notice how very high your elbows are, often

almost up to shoulder height - contrast to this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrRndk9_UJw

 

all that said, its really good (and good video work too!)

post #26 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

I'm trying to see if softening your boot will allow you to flex your boot better.

Test for dorsiflexion. Sit in a chair where you can set your back at 90degrees to the floor, your thighs parallel to the floor and your shins 90 degrees to the floor. Feet flat..

Then lift your fore foot as high as you can while keeping your heel on the ground. Average angle 11-16 degrees..

FYI the head PRD bindings on the system rail has quite a bit of ramp. Try that same squat test while in the ski and see how it feels.

DC

Tried this today, it's about 20° so it's not a limiting factor.

I think it just comes down to (lack of) skill and timing, hopefully by next year I can post something better. biggrin.gif
post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Tried this today, it's about 20° so it's not a limiting factor.

I think it just comes down to (lack of) skill and timing, hopefully by next year I can post something better. biggrin.gif

It's not just about it being a limiting factor. Being hyper mobile could also be an issue.
 

I would still be interested in what happens when you try the same crouch exercise while in your skis..

 

If you have hyper mobile ankles and your setup has too much forward lean, and there is too much ramp/delta in your boots/ski/binding system, it can put your knees well in front of your toes when you flex into the front of the boot. If your balance is that way, the only way to move your CoM back over the front of the arch is to bend the knees and move your hips back. Once you get too far compressed this way, you no longer have any range of movement to absorb any bumps or impacts and you get folded at the waist.

 

It's a lot more complicated than many realize.

post #28 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan View Post

It's not just about it being a limiting factor. Being hyper mobile could also be an issue.

 
I would still be interested in what happens when you try the same crouch exercise while in your skis..

If you have hyper mobile ankles and your setup has too much forward lean, and there is too much ramp/delta in your boots/ski/binding system, it can put your knees well in front of your toes when you flex into the front of the boot. If your balance is that way, the only way to move your CoM back over the front of the arch is to bend the knees and move your hips back. Once you get too far compressed this way, you no longer have any range of movement to absorb any bumps or impacts and you get folded at the waist.

It's a lot more complicated than many realize.

That is indeed more complicated than I thought.

I will try to flex to the same point of balance as before while clicked into skis (since I can't fall backward anymore) and see how it goes.
post #29 of 34

That was why I asked if you can do the same (squat in boots, not on skis) exercise with something under the toes of your boot (about 3mm) and see where you begin to fall over or feel like you are about to fall over backwards.

 

or here's something else to try..

 

Stand in your skis, lightly flexed into your boot. (don't try to crush the boot) Looking forward and relaxed and take a picture from the side. (same angle you have in your stance crouch image. I want to see where your hips/CoM are in relation to your feet.

post #30 of 34
Thread Starter 
Here's trying to squat while in skis, looks like I can get a bit lower than in boots only.

1_zpslceslhka.jpg~original

And here's lightly flexing into boots.

2_zpsqdrh7d4u.jpg~original
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