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Who wants to pick apart my bump skiing? - Page 2

post #31 of 48
BTS, unless you shorten the femur you cannot prevent your feet from moving forward of the hips as you flex. Using the hamstrings to draw them back is also limited by the combination of a stiff ski boot and ski. So it should be obvious that the hips, knees, and ankles must work together to keep the skis and especially the tips on the snow. Although like in the two montages I posted drawing the feet back with the femurs parallel to the slope is how to set up for an acl injury if you add pressure at that point. There in lies the challenge, can you plantar flex the foot while simultaneously extending with knee and hip extension to maintain contact? Does it create an aft stance? Do we need to carve/scarve that early, or can we save that for mid turn? Does that lateral deflection mid turn offer enough speed control?
The answers are found in the experimenting and after many years of exploring these ideas I would say
1. Standing on you tippy toes does not immediately force your stance aft. So to emphatically state it must is to ignore reality.
2. Always scarving is really a hangover from the days when we told everyone that was necessary. Consider the bump and how just like a race rut a platform is already there waiting to deflect us through the turn with little to no edge purchase necessary. (think reaction forces and how the snow supports us) The Reader's Digest version is letting the skis ride the outside of the rut and exploiting those external motive forces rather than creating internal motive forces to make the skis turn.
3. Speed control by controlling the steering angle is much easier when the strong edge engagement suggested with your scarving advice is avoided.

With that I hope all of this leads you to further study that I am confident will lead you towards less edge pressure biases in your opinions and philosophical approach to bump skiing.
Finally, Treefiter skis too low and gets caught in the back seat because of that. He also skis with an upright spine which does not allow the core to freely flow over the next bump. Thus necessitating the foot pull back / thrust the core forward to catch up with the feet. Granted he could not change a thing and still ski bumps quite well but to elevate his game these issues need to be addressed. With that I need to run.
Ski well my friend,
JASP
post #32 of 48
BTW, please stop stating what most skiers and instructor do. It makes you sound like an elitist and only serves to cast doubt about their and your teaching abilities. Respect the absent and it will come back to you ten fold...
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

BTW, please stop stating what most skiers and instructor do. It makes you sound like an elitist and only serves to cast doubt about their and your teaching abilities. Respect the absent and it will come back to you ten fold...

 

Elitism, ooooooh shame on me!  hehehe.  No elitism here, just an honest observation of what I see.  Do you disagree that in PSIA and ski schools across the country we focus on other approaches than flex to release?

 

In the bumps a flex to release move is ideal and unfortunately its not talked about much in our PSIA circles as PSIA folks tend to focus on other approaches to skiing, with so called "retraction turns" only hinted around about as a curiosity and not much understanding of it quite frankly.  This is not elitism, its a patently honest observation.

 

That is a simple and undeniable fact which I observe every time I go out in the bumps with my peers, clinicians, DECL's and everyone around me in this business.  Absolutely no elitism and I stand by my observation 110%, nor will I stop bringing it up. hehehe  sorry.  I hope somehow more people in PSIA will discover this movement pattern for what its worth, but its not going to happen in silent ignorance.  In the bumps is where it would be extremely helpful and useful.


Edited by borntoski683 - 3/6/15 at 11:43am
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

BTS, unless you shorten the femur you cannot prevent your feet from moving forward of the hips as you flex. Using the hamstrings to draw them back is also limited by the combination of a stiff ski boot and ski. 

 

Exactly why efforts need to be made to hold and pull them back as much as possible to reduce how much they will squirt forward.

 

As I stated earlier, you can choose to think of it as rocking foward with your CoM too as you crossover or a combination of both, but the end result will be about the same, BoS will move back relative to your CoM right as you crossover, which ideally is timed with crossing the crest of the bump as well.  When you cross the crest of the bump the slope angle changes drastically so this rock forward for foot pull back at that moment maintains balance through that transition.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

So it should be obvious that the hips, knees, and ankles must work together to keep the skis and especially the tips on the snow. 
 

No argument.  Why not do it sooner though?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Although like in the two montages I posted drawing the feet back with the femurs parallel to the slope is how to set up for an acl injury if you add pressure at that point. There in lies the challenge, can you plantar flex the foot while simultaneously extending with knee and hip extension to maintain contact? Does it create an aft stance? 
 

If you plantar flex while pushing on your foot then yes you will end up pushing yourself back, especially if you are only now trying to get the tips down.  I view that move as more of a move of desperation though, in all likelihood the skier is already aft and now they are thrusting their toes down trying to reach for something to edge with or whatever.  The skier is probably aft before and will continue to be aft and maybe more aft when plantar flexing and reaching down with the toes like that.  

 

But hey I agree if you find yourself aft and in the air with the tips up, you don't have much other option at that point, do what you're saying by all means at that point.  But I say it could have been prevented with aggressive dorsiflexion while approaching and crossing the crest, and rocking forward during crossover so that the tips are ALREADY down by the time you start extending.  Yes the ankle will probably open a little bit as you descend, compared to the super duper dorsiflex you had while flexed and cresting, but not nearly as much as if you are engaged in the activity if trying to push the tips down due to missing it earlier.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Do we need to carve/scarve that early, or can we save that for mid turn? Does that lateral deflection mid turn offer enough speed control?
 

You can do anything you want.  But why not do it as early as possible?  If you skip it, then you speed up a lot and fall deep into the trough.  This is how to avoid falling down into the trough and avoid picking up so much speed.  It keeps you higher so that actually you will not even have to flex as deeply on the next bump nor slam into it.

 

Hey sometimes its fun to jump and leap and whatever.  But if you're talking about smooth bump skiing and mastery, then the ability to scarve the top half of the turn is very important.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

1. Standing on you tippy toes does not immediately force your stance aft. So to emphatically state it must is to ignore reality.
 

Is that what you tell people to do in the bumps, stand on their tippy toes?  :eek

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post


2. Always scarving is really a hangover from the days when we told everyone that was necessary. Consider the bump and how just like a race rut a platform is already there waiting to deflect us through the turn with little to no edge purchase necessary. (think reaction forces and how the snow supports us) The Reader's Digest version is letting the skis ride the outside of the rut and exploiting those external motive forces rather than creating internal motive forces to make the skis turn.

 

Oh now you're cracking me up.  That is too silly to even respond almost.  But I will anyway.  People are not scarving the top half of their turns with round turns in the bumps anymore BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW.  They have been taught to extend themsleves into turns and that doesn't work very well.  What you are endorsing here, going down deep into the rut and using it like a drainage ditch to make your skis turns....well that is certainly one way to do it, but not a way I will ever endorse.  In my mind that is just people trying to make up for the fact that they are in incapable of initiating their turns early enough, so they are targeting mid turn in the bottom of the rut. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

3. Speed control by controlling the steering angle is much easier when the strong edge engagement suggested with your scarving advice is avoided.
 

I think you are misunderstanding the word scarve.  Scarving can definitely have a big steering angle.  In lower levels its a lot more skidded then it is carved.  But as you get better you can make a rounder and rounder turn shape where the steering angle can be reduced.  

 

But the key is to start this action IMMEDIATELY as you crest the bump.  Not half way down the backside after you have gone airborne, plantar flexed in desperation to get your tips back down and finally gained snow purchase again down in the rut.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

With that I hope all of this leads you to further study that I am confident will lead you towards less edge pressure biases in your opinions and philosophical approach to bump skiing.
 

Nope, I'm extremely confident with my bump skiing, its one of my strongest areas of skiing along with big mountain terrain.  Control comes from edges with pressure.  Just like all the other threads we are talking about top half of the turn, bla bla bla, its exactly the same in the bumps and fittingly comes down to the same missing movements for people who are missing high-C engagement.  

 

High-C engagement will make everything smoother.  It makes it possible to ski the bumps faster then everyone else and yet seems easier and slower paced then without it.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Finally, Treefiter skis too low and gets caught in the back seat because of that. He also skis with an upright spine which does not allow the core to freely flow over the next bump. Thus necessitating the foot pull back / thrust the core forward to catch up with the feet. Granted he could not change a thing and still ski bumps quite well but to elevate his game these issues need to be addressed. With that I need to run.
 

Skis too low.  That is a symptom not a cause.  What causes him to ski too low?  Not enough extension at the right time.  Why  not more extension?  Because he's aft after cresting and if he extended more with the kind of plantar flexion you're talking about he'd be even more aft.  So he's really unable to extend more there, he has to wait it out in a crouch until the next bump can save him from his aftness.

 

Yes he needs to extend more, but ONLY in conjunction with making sure he crests the bumps in a non-aft fashion.

 

That means a flex-release at the crest, with the CoM crossing over, and forward and feet going back.

post #35 of 48

Edge changes are somewhat irrelevant to flexing to absorb unless you subscribe to the up / down unweighting to release camp. Which is in the original PSIA manual BTS. Back in the day the longitudinal stiffness of the skis was much higher, which meant we could literally stand on some skis and not decamber them enough to make the platform underfoot touch the snow. Some of that was due to youth in my case because I was rail thin but the point here is up and down unweighting has gone away for the most part because the new skis are much softer lengthwise and simply do not require us to lose contact with the snow to effect a release. Flattening them so the skis are at less than the critical edge angle releases them regardless of the amount of pressure being applied to the snow. Rebound turns, bunny hops, Wedeln, all involved that up down unweighting movement but modern technique features much less of the pressure biased releases we used back then. Checking is also a think of the past for the most part. That is why I question the flex to release comment.

As far as your personal experience, that is what it is but stating any percentages about the greater world of skiing (those beyond your experiences) is hard and does come across as "I can do this and they can't" stuff. Respect the absent who may or may not wish to adopt your brand of skiing and that respect will come back to you ten fold.

post #36 of 48

BTS, your confidence in your flawed understanding is what stands in your way. Lose the need to hang onto one method and other doors will open up to you. If you are willing. If not that is certainly your choice but please stop stating unequivocally how everyone should, or even can ski. Better skiers than both of us have opened my eyes to how my personal pet ideas sometimes prevented me from learning from them. All I am suggesting is you might benefit from softening your seemingly rigid opinions and considering there are more way to do things than you currently think possible. I teach bumps daily BTW and I have a long list of folks who thought very similarly to you that now see the limitations of such thinking and how it creates an artificial barrier to even higher levels of performance. Pressure is good at the right time but is not good at other times. Additonally, the concept of Constant pressure from internal motive forces is IMO one of the worst mistakes we came up with a few years ago. The external motive forces change alignment relative to each other as we turn and this means our actions must change and adapt along with them. It's time to go but I am hoping you find worth in exploring outside of your preconceived world, there is a lot to explore and understand outside of that place.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 3/6/15 at 12:53pm
post #37 of 48

JASP you are way off in your understanding of what I'm trying to say

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

Edge changes are somewhat irrelevant to flexing to absorb unless you subscribe to the up / down unweighting to release camp. 

 

I'm not talking ANYTHING about unweighting at all.  Edge changes are not irrelevant, they are extremely one of the most important key ingredients of what I am talking about, and it sounds like you are missing that?

 

I'm saying can you change edges, crossover, while flexing to absorb at the same time.  Flex to release.  If you can't then you have to do a sequential 1-2 move.  one to absorb and then something else after that to crossover and engage the new edges.  That is where most in PSIA are entirely deficient.  Watch out for elitism and the boogie man, you don't want to try anything new right?  But that's what we're talking about.  

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

 

 Back in the day the longitudinal stiffness of the skis was much higher, which meant we could literally stand on some skis and not decamber them enough to make the platform underfoot touch the snow. Some of that was due to youth in my case because I was rail thin but the point here is up and down unweighting has gone away for the most part because the new skis are much softer lengthwise and simply do not require us to lose contact with the snow to effect a release. 

 

Uhm ok sure, but what does this have to do with the discussion?  I'm not talking about unweighting.  We unweighted in the old days partly for the reasons you are saying but also because we generally had to pivot the skis quite a bit more than is neccessary today.  By the way, even today on the new shorter skis with sidecut, a lot of people (including many in PSIA) are still unweighting in order to pivot their skis, for the same reason I said before, they don't know how to do a flex release and cross over onto the new edges.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

Flattening them so the skis are at less than the critical edge angle releases them regardless of the amount of pressure being applied to the snow. 

 

When I speak of a flex release, I'm not just talking about the letting go of the edges.  I'm talking about a complete release of both the edges and the CoM so that is flows across.  A release from the old turn involves not only the edges but also a release of the CoM.  Its a flex to release with crossover while flexed.  I said it pretty plainly earlier in the thread.  The goal is also not to get the skis flat.  The goal is to get them onto the new edges!  They will move through flat of course.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

Rebound turns, bunny hops, Wedeln, all involved that up down unweighting movement but modern technique features much less of the pressure biased releases we used back then. Checking is also a think of the past for the most part. That is why I question the flex to release comment.

 

You are getting way out into left field now with these old school ski technique comments.  They have absolutely nothing to do with flex release.  honestly JASP perhaps you should do some more time looking into flex releasing and consider it more completely before rushing to judgment against it, because obviously you don't understand it.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with unweighting and further more I will contend that the folks who are unable to flex release are the very ones doing a pop extension move in the bumps to unweight and pivot.

 

Sorry you don't like my observations but I don't take them back, I stand by it 110% and I hope more people will look around and observe the same things I am observing and help effect more change in the industry, which appears to be woefully ignorant in this particular area.

 

 

post #38 of 48

Here's my favourite course conductor explaining flex to release: 

 

 

The premise is natural separation, angulation and edging as outcomes through flexion of the inside leg and extension of the outside. 

post #39 of 48

Yea that's not it either Meta.  But JF does know how to flex release I've seen him do it.

post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

BTS, your confidence in your flawed understanding is what stands in your way. Lose the need to hang onto one method and other doors will open up to you. If you are willing. If not that is certainly your choice but please stop stating unequivocally how everyone should, or even can ski. Better skiers than both of us have opened my eyes to how my personal pet ideas sometimes prevented me from learning from them. All I am suggesting is you might benefit from softening your seemingly rigid opinions and considering there are more way to do things than you currently think possible. I teach bumps daily BTW and I have a long list of folks who thought very similarly to you that now see the limitations of such thinking and how it creates an artificial barrier to even higher levels of performance. Pressure is good at the right time but is not good at other times. Constant pressure from internal motive forces is IMO one of the worst mistakes we came up with a few years ago. The external motive forces change alignment relative to each other as we turn and this means our actions must change and adapt along with them. It's time to go but I am hoping you find worth in exploring outside of your preconceived world, there is a lot to explore and understand outside of that place.

 

JASP I will never stop!!!  ahahahah  Maybe you should look in a mirror though.  I only suggested one thing, and you imploded over it.  Sheesh

 

Yea sorry but my view is that YOUR thinking is limited, not mine.  So there!  hehehehe

post #41 of 48

Dated video of Chuck Martin, but still relevant (IMO)

particularly from 0:30 to 0:53 and 1:33 to 1:45

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHhJrABKj5Y

post #42 of 48

When I read these long drawn arguments about the "correct" way to slide down a hill, I think about what my beginner gf said once; "I'm having a great time, isn't that why we're here?". 

I had to agree despite the fact that she may get stuck at a certain level and not progress, or pick up bad habits. The folks getting into these long drawn arguments are certainly passed the beginner stage. They simply need to learn how to ski, no -- I meant get along!

post #43 of 48

Wow, Flame on BTS, calling the entire industry ignorant because they don't happen to agree with your opinions is beyond arrogant. Whine to the mods about me saying that again if you like but I stand by my opinion that your incessant need to insult folks not even involved in the discussion very annoying. BTW, Nothing you have written is outside the scope of where others have been in their development but unlike you they continued to grow and learn. Even when that meant facing up to the idea that some of what they held so dearly was off base. The fact is they shared that experience with others and continue to do so at the very top end of the teaching world. It has helped folks like me understand the fallacy of High C edge engagement and pressure as an everywhere and all the time technique. I can ski that way and have been capable of doing so for at least four decades. So to suggest I cannot, or do not understand what you are trying to communicate is hardly accurate. I am simply saying you need to investigate the topic more because there are some glaring holes in how you present your model. For example your flex to release term is shorthand for flexing to absorb and then performing an edge change in a flexed stance. The crossover / under that is used during that transition involves tipping and un-tipping the skis onto and off of an edge as well but flex to release is a term used for a very long time to describe a down unweighting where lack of pressure releases the edges. No edge change is needed to accomplish that. Think side slips initiated by a strong flexing movement.

 

TreeFiter posted a video and asked for comments, my comments were to extend without making the hips rise because they need to stay lower to provide enough reach with the legs to maintain contact with the snow. I also added that staying too low when we should be reaching and achieving full extension is an area to explore because it will provide the needed foot to shoulders range of motion to ski those bumps taller without driving the hips higher. Nothing about that is controversial, or incongruent with modern technique. Stay low enough to reach but don't drop so low that you lose RoM needed to absorb the next bump. I also noted the upright spine and suspect it is a stiff back issue but who really knows. What that does is places his stance further aft in preparation for running into the next mogul face. Getting taller eliminated the need for that "bracing for impact" aspect of his skiing because absorbing the bump smoothly without interrupting downhill flow is more doable from that higher stance.

As far as early pressure, too early / too strong is an error that leads to raising the hips instead of simply maintaining contact until we arrive at the middle of the turn where long legs and strong edge usage makes more sense. Carmichael clearly shows exactly that and his example was something I suggested TreeFiter emulate.

post #44 of 48

So here is something I drew to describe cross overs / unders and releasing the core from apex to apex. The drawing is part of a presentation I did fifteen years ago. You simply don't have to huck the body, or stall the core, or feet to do this sort of move.

pendulum.jpg


Edited by justanotherskipro - 3/6/15 at 3:31pm
post #45 of 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

but I stand by my opinion that your incessant need to insult folks not even involved in the discussion very annoying. 

 

JASP, it is you that is flaming on.  I'm only responding to everything you say with honestly and directness.  Why don't you relax a bit and have a more open conversation about skiing rather than throwing out so many insults in lieu of intelligence.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

 calling the entire industry ignorant because they don't happen to agree with your opinions is beyond arrogant. 

 

Well if you want to throw around insults, as I said before look in a mirror.

 

I will stand by what I said as I have had too many conversations with people like you that just continue to demonstrate that ignorance in this particular area.  There are of course some people who are not ignorant.    On this particular topic, they are the minority.  Its really silly for you to dispute this.  It would be more intellectually honest for you say, yea its true BTS, in PSIA we focus on different movement patterns that we have decided are more effective for teaching skiing and yes its true that flex releasing and certain areas such as this is a particular area we simply haven't focused on.   That is the intellectual truth.  Again, I already realize there are exceptional people that ski it all, but I would not be having this silly debate with one of them.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

  Whine to the mods about me saying that again if you like but I stand by my opinion that your incessant need to insult folks not even involved in the discussion very annoying. 

 

While you feel that i have some incessant need to insult people, that is not where I am coming from at all.  I just want to have open discussion about skiing.  I am honest about it.  nothing more.  I have no intention of insulting anyone whatsoever.    Sorry that you feel I am annoying you by honestly discussing what I see.  That's your problem not mine.  Perhaps check your ego?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

BTW, Nothing you have written is outside the scope of where others have been in their development but unlike you they continued to grow and learn. Even when that meant facing up to the idea that some of what they held so dearly was off base. The fact is they shared that experience with others and continue to do so at the very top end of the teaching world. It has helped folks like me understand the fallacy of High C edge engagement and pressure as an everywhere and all the time technique. I can ski that way and have been capable of doing so for at least four decades. So to suggest I cannot, or do not understand what you are trying to communicate is hardly accurate. I am simply saying you need to investigate the topic more because there are some glaring holes in how you present your model. 

 

I see it the other way around.  Your own words have demonstrated you didn't even understand what I was saying.  either that or you deliberately misconstrued what I was saying.  I haven't seen you ski and will make no comment about what you are capable of, I can only say that you did not understand what I wrote and have for numerous posts been trying to condescend to me, but you know that will never work so I don't know why you bother trying...

 

I don't see any holes in what I have presented here.  The holes are in your understanding of what I wrote and what is possible with flex release.  no biggie dude, there are a lot of ways to ski, I'm sure you're having fun with your ILS, which I have no desire to do, so hey...to each their own.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

For example your flex to release term is shorthand for flexing to absorb and then performing an edge change in a flexed stance. The crossover / under that is used during that transition involves tipping and un-tipping the skis onto and off of an edge as well but flex to release is a term used for a very long time to describe a down unweighting where lack of pressure releases the edges. No edge change is needed to accomplish that. Think side slips initiated by a strong flexing movement.

 

If you want to argue about what vocab was used again that is your prerogative, but I suggest a more productive approach would be to seek understanding of what I tried to write and I made myself very clear several times, I was not talking about unweighting and I'm not alone in my understanding of what flexed releasing is.  You are talking old school stuff now..sorry...but that isn't what I was talking about and not the best way to ski bumps.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

TreeFiter posted a video and asked for comments, my comments were to extend without making the hips rise because they need to stay lower to provide enough reach with the legs to maintain contact with the snow. I also added that staying too low when we should be reaching and achieving full extension is an area to explore because it will provide the needed foot to shoulders range of motion to ski those bumps taller without driving the hips higher. Nothing about that is controversial, or incongruent with modern technique. Stay low enough to reach but don't drop so low that you lose RoM needed to absorb the next bump.

 

This is good stuff!  finally you're back on track after your flaming.  Are you done now and ready to be reasonable?

 

The reason the hips move UP when they extend is because of ineffective flexing and releasing!!!!!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

 

As far as early pressure, too early / too strong is an error that leads to raising the hips instead of simply maintaining contact until we arrive at the middle of the turn where long legs and strong edge usage makes more sense. Carmichael clearly shows exactly that and his example was something I suggested TreeFiter emulate.

 

No, early pressure doesn't raise the hips.  Pushing hard can.  Pressure simple means edge engagement, nothing more.  That includes some pressure.  how much?  Enough to bend the ski, not so much to get a pop up.

 

Pushing on the feet in a pop extension is not what I or anyone was endorsing.  

 

 

post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post
 

Dated video of Chuck Martin, but still relevant (IMO)

particularly from 0:30 to 0:53 and 1:33 to 1:45

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHhJrABKj5Y

 

 

Carmicheal is still using the same basic stance back in the days when he competed.

 

post #47 of 48

Here's a video World Mogul Freestyle Champion Patrick Deneen: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrRndk9_UJw

 

Go back 30 something years and nothing has really changed:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrRndk9_UJw

post #48 of 48
nice video.
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