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New skis, want to take care of these, help on tuning? factory tune ok?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

I always buy used skis and beat the crap out of them in the woods so I've never any time tuning skis or any of that. I think the last time I tuned my skis was three years ago. But I finally bought a nice pair of hard snow skis I intend to take good care of, these will not be going in the woods: Rossignol Hero Elite ST Ti. 122 - 68 - 10 @ 167cm

 

 

I called Rossignol and he said the factory and recommended tune is 1' base/2' edge. He recommended getting them tuned before skiing them. Do you guys think that is really necessary? I'm getting a great deal on the skis so if I wanted a tune it would be $40 extra. 

 

Also, is 1' base/2' edge a good tune for this type of ski? Will be skiing in Quebec and North Vermont with these when there's no fresh snow, always on piste with the occasional bumps. I've demoed them a couple of times and loved them, but I don't know what tune the demo skis had, at one place the guy said 89' but I don't know how that relates to base/edge numbers the Rossi guy gave me. 

 

How often will I need to get a ski like this tuned? Should I get one of those diamond stones I read about and give them a hand file after every day out or is there a risk I could screw it up?

 

And finally, what's the deal with wax? When I skied out west wax was important because there was lots of flat cat tracks, and wet snow, etc.. but out east there are no cat tracks, and other than the very end of the season the snow is almost never sticky.. whats the point of waxing in this case? The skis are almost always on edge, and I never feel like my skis aren't "fast" enough out here like I did out west when I'd often be on some cat track for 5-10 minutes in super sticky snow. Is there another purpose to waxing that makes the ski perform better other than making it faster when it's not on edge?

 

Lot of questions but any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

post #2 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by borpborp View Post
 

I always buy used skis and beat the crap out of them in the woods so I've never any time tuning skis or any of that. I think the last time I tuned my skis was three years ago. But I finally bought a nice pair of hard snow skis I intend to take good care of, these will not be going in the woods: Rossignol Hero Elite ST Ti. 122 - 68 - 10 @ 167cm

 

 

I called Rossignol and he said the factory and recommended tune is 1' base/2' edge. He recommended getting them tuned before skiing them. Do you guys think that is really necessary? I'm getting a great deal on the skis so if I wanted a tune it would be $40 extra. 

 

Also, is 1' base/2' edge a good tune for this type of ski? Will be skiing in Quebec and North Vermont with these when there's no fresh snow, always on piste with the occasional bumps. I've demoed them a couple of times and loved them, but I don't know what tune the demo skis had, at one place the guy said 89' but I don't know how that relates to base/edge numbers the Rossi guy gave me. 

 

How often will I need to get a ski like this tuned? Should I get one of those diamond stones I read about and give them a hand file after every day out or is there a risk I could screw it up?

 

And finally, what's the deal with wax? When I skied out west wax was important because there was lots of flat cat tracks, and wet snow, etc.. but out east there are no cat tracks, and other than the very end of the season the snow is almost never sticky.. whats the point of waxing in this case? The skis are almost always on edge, and I never feel like my skis aren't "fast" enough out here like I did out west when I'd often be on some cat track for 5-10 minutes in super sticky snow. Is there another purpose to waxing that makes the ski perform better other than making it faster when it's not on edge?

 

Lot of questions but any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Tuning before skiing on them is decision is based on the current tune. particularly base edge bevel angle and consistency. 

 

The bad thing about tuning a brand new skis is removing he excellent ceramic  disc finish that comes on most new skis. This is a really great grippy edge. 

 

Do you have a true bar. 

 

if not take 'em to a shop and have the base edge checked. 

 

I would put a 3 degree on them after skiing them as is for a few days! gives you a basis for comparison and a 3 degree sise edge has a lot more edge grip with zero downside.

 

I touch up my side edge with a couple of diamond stones and an arkansas stone after everyday of skiing................NO FILES unless serious edge damage.


Edited by Atomicman - 3/2/15 at 8:33am
post #3 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

Tuning before skiing on them is decision is based on the current tune. particularly base edge bevel angle and consistency. 

 

The bad thing about tuning a brand new skis is removing he excellent ceramic  disc finish that comes on must new skis. This is a really great grippy edge. 

 

Do you have a true bar. 

 

if not take 'em to a shop and have the base edge checked. 

 

I would put a 3 degree on them after skiing them as is for a few days! gives you a basis for comparison and a 3 degree sisde edge has a lot more edge grip with zero downside.

 

I touch up my side edge with a couple of diamond stones and an arkansas stone afeter everyday of skiing................NO FILES unless serious edge damage.

 

Other than the true bar to verify that the bases are flat, is there an easy way to verify the base and edge bevel? And if the base is flat and the base/edge bevel is indeed 1'/2', is there anything else to look for as far as the quality of the factory tune?

 

If I buy some diamond stones to touch up my side edges, is it idiot proof or is there a chance I could cause damage or make things worse?

 

And why do you touch up the side edge but not the base edge? 

 

Am I correct that if I want to use these in bumps I'm better off with a 1' base instead of something like 0.5' because they will slide easier when needed?

post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by borpborp View Post
 

 

Other than the true bar to verify that the bases are flat, is there an easy way to verify the base and edge bevel? And if the base is flat and the base/edge bevel is indeed 1'/2', is there anything else to look for as far as the quality of the factory tune? NO you must use a truebar, unless you want to spend $260 + on an SVST Pro Bevelmeter. There are some other Mickey Mouse ways but a True bar is the easiest.  If you take a truebar and match it the the base edge angle, at 60mm across the ski a 1mm gap =1 degree of base edge bevel. A.5mm gap = 1/2 degree.  

 

If I buy some diamond stones to touch up my side edges, is it idiot proof or is there a chance I could cause damage or make things worse? Diamond stones with a good fixed side edge beveler is pretty idiot proof! But you also may need to cut back the sidewall and you must knock off the hanging burr after working on the side edges.

 

And why do you touch up the side edge but not the base edge? Constantly diamond stoning the base edge increases the base edge bevel over time as does the abrasion from skiing on them. And the only way to reset them them to less base edge bevel is to have the skis stone ground to flat and start over. Anything over a a 1 degree base bevel does not provide acceptable ski performance. None of this is true of side edges which can be increased or reduced at will. 

 

Am I correct that if I want to use these in bumps I'm better off with a 1' base instead of something like 0.5' because they will slide easier when needed? Yes, a .5 is much quicker to engage and is definetly a tighter feel probably not my choice for bumps. Soem folks like it many don't


Edited by Atomicman - 3/2/15 at 8:34am
post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

 

Thanks! I'm wondering if I do get a base grind if I should just get them to put them to 0.5' to see how it feels? Also, you mentioned how to verify the base bevel with the true bar, but how would one measure the side bevel? I read a couple of threads on here where people say they requested 3' and got 2' because the shop was lazy and didn't want to change their machine setup.

 

I have a pair of 98mm Rossignol S3's, they're super beat up but I've never really tuned them, maybe once or twice, and since I never specified anything they probably tuned them 1/1 since they're a powder/park ski, would there be any harm in going 1/2 or 1/3 with a ski like that? I would love if they had some edge grip on them.

post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 

Is this a good guide? This is my local store: http://www.mec.ca/product/5002-248/kuu-ice-buster-88-side-edge-sharpener/

 

They also sell the Kuu diamond stones (blue, red, green), again does the brand matter?

 

Is an Arkansas stone absolutely necessary? They don't have one

 

And finally should I get soft or hard gummi stone?

 

 

Thanks!

post #7 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by borpborp View Post
 

Is this a good guide? This is my local store: http://www.mec.ca/product/5002-248/kuu-ice-buster-88-side-edge-sharpener/  I don't like it. It limits the width of the file/stone/ceramic stone you can put in there.   Get this and use a big spring clamp 

 

http://www.artechski.com/svst-pro-side-edge-beveler/        http://www.artechski.com/artech-spring-clamp-standard/  or this   http://www.artechski.com/artech-spring-clamp-mini/

 

They also sell the Kuu diamond stones (blue, red, green), again does the brand matter?  Yes,  Moonflex are the ones you want to buy. All are not created equal. 

 

http://www.artechski.com/diaface-moon-flex-diamond-files/

 

 

 

Is an Arkansas stone absolutely necessary? They don't have one  Absolutely necessary!     http://www.race-werks.com/svst-translucent-surgical-pocket-stone/   This is what I use

 

And finally should I get soft or hard gummi stone?   X-tra hard Blue!    http://www.artechski.com/swix-gummi-stone-blue-extra-hard/

 

 

Thanks!

post #8 of 25
Hi...I bought the same skis new. They are amazing. I have a small question. Do the skis come from the factory to the store with an already set 1'/2'edge or do we need to have th tuned to get that spec? Thanks guys!
post #9 of 25
Ski ,em and if they ski well and you like the performance leave them alone. When they need tuning change to a 1/3
Edited by Atomicman - 2/24/16 at 9:52am
post #10 of 25

I always go over the tune on a new ski.  Some need more work than others.  Very few come with hand work done for you.

post #11 of 25

Many new skis cup due to the epoxy continuing to cure after the skis leave the factory.  Don't count on new skis being tuned right--they might have been leaving the factory, but they changed.  My new Heads did exactly that.  They seemed to have a mind of their own sometimes on the snow.  A top quality tune at Alpine Pro in Blackcomb (recommended to me here on Epic) made them ski better than new.

 

Forget any factory tune specs.  Get the tune that works best for your expected snow and your skiing style.  I like the bottom at 0.7° feathered to 1° near the tip & tail.  I like the sides at 3°.  1°/2° works for everybody, makes nobody upset, doesn't grip as well as a more aggressive angle.

 

It looks in the pictures like your bindings are "system" bindings on a rail.  Great.  Try moving them ahead or back one notch and see what the results are.  Try two notches.  If you do this right, it changes nothing regarding the release.  I like the bindings on my new Heads forward 2 notches.  See what position makes your Rossis happiest.

 

Waxing is always a topic for endless discussion.  The skis run better, turn better, the bases may live longer.  I like Hertel Super Hot Sauce universal wax ironed in, then I remelt it and wipe it off with a paper towel.  100 Epic waxers, at least 110 "only one right way" to wax.

post #12 of 25
I would be worried if after buying a new car the dealership advised me to immediately change the spark plugs and oil. It seems Rossi has no confidence in it factory tune.

Just try the skis and make a judgement on how they handle. If you are happy, then they dont need a tune

You can easily spend several hundred dollars on ski tuning equipment. You need to buy the right equipment and do the job properly. Buying the odd diamond stone just wont cut it.
post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 


Curious - why moonflex?  I had a couple of those and it seemed like they wore out like crazy.  had much better luck with Swix

post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Many new skis cup due to the epoxy continuing to cure after the skis leave the factory.  Don't count on new skis being tuned right--they might have been leaving the factory, but they changed.  My new Heads did exactly that.  They seemed to have a mind of their own sometimes on the snow. 


My Atomic Redsters were like that when I got them.  Noticed it the first time I tried to scrape them

post #15 of 25
I have DMT and Moonflex. The Moonflex don't load up with wax as much. Not sure if they last longer as they are newer, but just chucked a red DMT, but it was probably ten years old, so no biggie.

The Moonflex also are inset and seem to postpone the need for sidewall work a bit.
post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjeep View Post
 


Curious - why moonflex?  I had a couple of those and it seemed like they wore out like crazy.  had much better luck with Swix

You are using too much pressure?

 

Are you using 50/50% water  denatured alcohol mix on them? Sprayed directly on the stone? Are you moving the stone around in your bevel guide and flipping arou8nd using different areas of the stone?

 

Never liked the Swix.

post #17 of 25
Don't think I am pressing too hard. Just use water, no alcohol and yes I move the stone around in the guide (beast)
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I have DMT and Moonflex. The Moonflex don't load up with wax as much.

 

Sib, I've had both stones and agree Moonflex are better. Using them exclusively now.

Curious though what you're doing that has the "diamond stone loading up with wax"?

Never experienced that problem.

post #19 of 25
I wax every three days, so there's occasionally wax still on the skis from last time. No worries, not waxing first. ;-) I've found that wax remover works well in getting it off. Yes, they are soaking in water/alcohol, but doesn't prevent the wax getting in them. Mostly a problem with the DMT stones for some reason.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by borpborp View Post
 
 

I have a pair of 98mm Rossignol S3's, they're super beat up but I've never really tuned them, maybe once or twice, and since I never specified anything they probably tuned them 1/1 since they're a powder/park ski, would there be any harm in going 1/2 or 1/3 with a ski like that? I would love if they had some edge grip on them.


I set my yard sale S5s at 1/2 at the beginning of the season; it felt like they were pretty close to that already in that once I got the scuzz off the edges with the stones I didn't have to do much cutting with the file at all.   

Perfectly fine in soft snow if that's what you're worried about. 

post #21 of 25

Thanks Sib, that makes sense as to how the wax build up could occur.  I was thinking some how from using the diamond stones on the side edges.

I (try to) wax even more often but always use soft brass brush on the bases before touching up edges. Prevents any build up even when using the 400 Moonflex for a light burr removal on base edge.

post #22 of 25
Well, it is coming from the side edges. Even though I use the little cutout for the edge on the scraper, I'm not a fanatic about it. And generally the snow is soft here, so any drips along the sidewall might not be completely gone. I'm sure many times there's a skin of wax hanging around.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Well, it is coming from the side edges. Even though I use the little cutout for the edge on the scraper, I'm not a fanatic about it. And generally the snow is soft here, so any drips along the sidewall might not be completely gone. I'm sure many times there's a skin of wax hanging around.

 

Nonwoven pads to clean sidewalls and side edges = money. 

post #24 of 25
Really? How much? I could use a spare source of income. ;-)
post #25 of 25

Well it appears we've successfully driven the OP original question into a bit of a sideways thread drift.  Sorry about that borpborp.

 

With regard to all the tuning questions OP is asking;  There is so much information out there (especially on this website along with it's countless links to additional information each of which has more references, etc.) that you just need to start Google-ing, reading (or better yet watching you tube videos) and picking the answers/techniques that seem reasonable to you and that fit your budget (both time and money).   Asking which  file or which wax to buy without first educating yourself on the basics of tuning edges or waxing your skis is a pointless exercise cause you will mess up your edges if you just buy a "recommended" file and start filing (not so bad with buying a bar of wax but it probably won't do much for your skiing without knowledge and tools for applying (and removing) it.

 

Personally, I started tuning about 4 or 5 years ago (with all the same questions you're asking) by reading just about waxing, buying basic related tools and a universal wax from a shop that supports this website (the owner of which also provided a wealth of information and answers to my questions) and then expanded my skills and tools a bit each season.  And btw, I find I'm continually learning improved tuning techniques each year from this site for stuff I thought I'd learned 3 years ago.  Never ends.  And one final suggestion; whatever tuning/waxing techniques you decide to learn, don't use your new skis for learning.  Find some goodwill store junkers for $5 and practice first on them.  Don't ask me how I know that :eek.

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