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Help with a steering issue (alignment?) - Page 3

post #61 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

notice my favourite instructor doesn't ski with a "pivot" at the top of his turns, nor does he teach this (or any of the high end course conductors). 

Check out the CSIA Technical manual for a better description of CSIA focuses: http://cld.bz/Zbi2PPo#28/z 
that manual I have to say is not what I was expecting. It is centered on ski design and making the ski work and ages ahead of what I have seen from psia. Pivoting indeed is just two paragraphs.

See how our own discourse here has changed as our understanding evolved.... just last year you were trying to convince me that my carving is just good pivoting from the middle of the ski... now you also avoid pivoting and prefer steering and clearly delineate carving... this is what I was talking about. We both put a lot of effort and training into this and our understanding evolved accordingly with our skill. That was the point that. I was trying to make about lower level instructors and coaches missing a serious understanding and, statistically, most fall in that category. Whether there is a diploma or just the understanding, whatever.

I am getting a little bit of mixed messages from JF's videos about steering - he clearly is/means carving, but not sure if he is talking about rolling the pressure to the ankle or just driving with the glutes as in pushing the outside ski forward.... he sometimes seems to imply either - I'm oerhaps trying to read too much into it.

Cheers
post #62 of 78
Quote:
FWIW, skiing is her favorite pastime.
IMHO, this is the only thing that matters. If learning better technique would help her enjoy it even more, fine. But my guess is that if you asked her, she'd say that your fixation on making her "better" by meeting your standards doesn't do much to enhance her skiing experience. How you think you can force her to want something you think she should want is beyond me.

You find her lack of interest in what interests you to be pathological. You may think that's a cute joke, but your general attitude echoes the early use of psychiatry to dominate women who didn't meet the expectations of the men around them. I'm sorry to be harsh, but it's one thing to want your spouse to be able to ski the same terrain you do, and quite another to make her contentment with middling skiing into a mental disorder. As has been said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

So I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Cathy needs to be in charge of any changes she makes in her skiing, not you.
If that means she keeps skiing the way she does now, that's her problem, not yours. I have a sneaking suspicion that if you'd only lay off pushing your agenda, she might eventually come into contact with something that would inspire her to explore skill building on her own. Or not. You'll just have to figure out how to enjoy your ski days anyway.
post #63 of 78

Litterbug, I really do not like to engage in this type of discussion but for some reason you got to me.  Granted, tone and points are not always clear when we are typing thoughts into a thread.  

 

I am not forcing anything.  My wife and I ski together 100% of the time.  We may split up for five minutes because I want to hit a run she is not comfortable doing, but we meet at the bottom and ride back up together.  However, this is rare.  Our level of skiing is very different, but we are always together.  I go down a ways and wait for her to join me.  We hang around a bit as well, so she can catch her breath.  I never force her to ski past her comfort zone.  

 

She gets frustrated when the conditions change.  She has a desire to ski more confidently and safely.  The only caveat is she wants to do it with me.  Believe it or not, not all husbands are total assholes.  Some of us can communicate in a manner that is not insulting or demeaning to our wives.  We have fun going on the easier slopes together and trying new drills.  I really appreciate some of the tips folks in this particular thread provided.  Us husbands that ski and do drills with our wives are a rare breed.  We tend to disguise ourselves on the slopes so we do not attract the attention of the Spouse Teaching Police.  But we do exist.  My strategy is to pretend that I am a beginner.  Fortunately, it comes naturally to me.  It works, no one ever catches on to us.  

 

Cathy does shut down when she gets nervous, not in the way you interpreted.  It is her defense mechanism and she will be the first person to tell you that.  The point of that comment is that it becomes a hurdle for her regarding physical activities; fact, not an insulting shot by a careless husband.  The point is that making changes to anything she is accustomed to doing is that much more challenging.  The one positive; she is tremendously consistent.  

 

Its a bummer that discussions about spouses always ends up here because there is so much knowledge on this forum that could help people that are in similar situations to me.  I bet there are a lot of wives out there who prefer to ski and learn from their husbands, despite the fact that a third party would be a better solution.  Some of us spend almost 100% of our free time with our loved ones, so it is only natural that we teach each other things.  She is my skiing partner, my sailing partner, my fishing partner, my projects around the house partner and sometimes my road biking partner.  Mountain biking is a no go though; I have my dog, Roxy for that one :)  She is a rockstar for doing all of these things with me, all things that she was never exposed to until we met some 26 or so year ago.  More importantly, she enjoys it all, and it has kept her young.  Pete


Edited by peterk123 - 2/28/15 at 4:23pm
post #64 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

 

At 3:30ish as well JF demonstrates steering of the outside leg using the glutes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


I am getting a little bit of mixed messages from JF's videos about steering - he clearly is/means carving, but not sure if he is talking about rolling the pressure to the ankle or just driving with the glutes as in pushing the outside ski forward....

 

I'm all in favour of anatomical/biomechanical descriptions of skiing movements if they are accurate and helpful. I'd suggest that a review of the action of the gluteal muscles might be in order here. Gray's Anatomy is not just a TV show. ;)

post #65 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post

Litterbug, I really do not like to engage in this type of discussion but for some reason you got to me.  Granted, tone and points are not always clear when we are typing thoughts into a thread.  

Pete, I'm glad you posted this, and I hope you'll accept my apologies. I misinterpreted the tone of your posts by reading them far more literally than you meant them. Your followup posts seemed more and more like the kind of stuff that gets to me, which is what prompted me to stick my nose in.

While I agree with others that teaching friends or SOs can be fraught with peril, I also believe people do what they think is best, and at least around here, consenting adults are free to work things out as well as they can. So I'll butt out and let more helpful people give you advice.

Lenore
post #66 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 

 

 

I'm all in favour of anatomical/biomechanical descriptions of skiing movements if they are accurate and helpful. I'd suggest that a review of the action of the gluteal muscles might be in order here. Gray's Anatomy is not just a TV show. ;)

 

The concept of recruiting leg muscles by avoiding getting too far forward aligns with best practices in inline skating, in which advanced/expert skaters create powerful carves (and a double-push) through the heel rather than the toe - so I don't personally need further convincing. (I can't carve turns on inlines from a standstill with pressure over toes. Nor can my coach. I can do so, however, when I get my feet ever so slightly forward.) That said, I'd love to hear a kinesiologist's take.

 

I'm open to informed disagreement, but I'll need more evidence than just "that's wrong because it's wrong". I recognize my perspective might sound like "it's right because I'm right", but it fits with the model of inline skating, and it's what one of our top level 4s is doing. Plus when I get over the ball of the foot, I often rotate in the top of the turn, barely creating any turn shape. This isn't the case now that I'm adjusting where I allow the pressure to build over the ski. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.


Edited by Metaphor_ - 2/28/15 at 10:34pm
post #67 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


Pete, I'm glad you posted this, and I hope you'll accept my apologies. I misinterpreted the tone of your posts by reading them far more literally than you meant them. Your followup posts seemed more and more like the kind of stuff that gets to me, which is what prompted me to stick my nose in.

Lenore

Lenore, no worries and I appreciate the kind words.  Like I said earlier, you guys are typically a tremendous help.  Heck, you all have been re-teaching me to ski, and I have been doing it for over forty five years :)

 

Ok, I am done hijacking this thread.  I think I owe Metaphor an apology for that.  Sorry Metaphor. Pete

post #68 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

The concept of recruiting leg muscles by avoiding getting too far forward aligns with best practices in inline skating, in which advanced/expert skaters create powerful carves (and a double-push) through the heel rather than the toe - so I don't personally need further convincing. (I can't carve turns on inlines from a standstill with pressure over toes. Nor can my coach. I can do so, however, when I get my feet ever so slightly forward.) That said, I'd love to hear a kinesiologist's take.

 

I'm open to informed disagreement, but I'll need more evidence than just "that's wrong because it's wrong". I recognize my perspective might sound like "it's right because I'm right", but it fits with the model of inline skating, and it's what one of our top level 4s is doing. Plus when I get over the ball of the foot, I often rotate in the top of the turn, barely creating any turn shape. This isn't the case now that I'm adjusting where I allow the pressure to build over the ski. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

 

Meta, you get no argument from me about the ball of your foot being the wrong place to stand while skiing, not neccessarily for the reason you are presenting, but still...  Many sports we get onto the balls of our feet, but we don't stand there on the balls of our feet, we spring off of them.  Like sprinting, etc.  But we don't spring off the balls of our feet in skiing, we stack up and stand on them.  Imagine a weightlifter trying to stand on the balls of his feet, its silly.  The very notion that we need to spring off our feet in skiing is just plain wrong.  We need to find balance on our feet and stack ourselves up.

 

That said, the other parts you said about pushing off the heel instead of the toe to propel ourselves, I also don't agree.  We aren't talking about skating, we are talking about skiing.  Skating, like sprinting, requires a push off to propel oneself forward, then gliding perhaps on an arc if desired.  In skiing we ALLOW gravity to take us, unless we're specifically talking about skating in skiing of course.  Presuming we're talking about regular ski turns, then I take issue again with the concept that we should use powerful leg muscles to create turns with some kind of pushing or twisting (or hybrid), mechanism.  

 

I don't know why people are so insistent that they need to manhandle their skis so much.   In skiing we need to RELAX, not push.  We relax and tip our skis into position so that they will create reactionary forces and make turns all by themselves.   Not only is it not neccessary to use powerful glute muscles to create turning in the skis, its counter productive to do so.  Among other things it will ultimately interfere with relaxation, which promotes biomechanical interactions that need to happen to get our body into position to let the skis do what they do best.  Tipping the skis, folding our inside leg out of the way, developing angulation and counter to be in balance.

 

So personally I don't much care whether skaters are more effective at pushing off from their heels or their toes.   That is not "carving" either by the way and has nothing to do with carving whatsoever.  


Edited by borntoski683 - 3/1/15 at 7:24pm
post #69 of 78
Thread Starter 
Hey there, on a bus on the way to the ski hill, so this post will be a bit abridged. Rather than pushing or twisting, the leg muscles help shape through the arc, preferably with ski tail following same track as the tip. No twist, no abrupt push, just turning.

Also I want to be careful to not put words into any other instructor's mouth. I can't speak for anyone but myself. What I've said is merely my best effort interpretation.
post #70 of 78

why do you feel you need to move them using powerful muscles in your leg along the path the skis are already gliding on? 

post #71 of 78
Thread Starter 
Pivoting the femur in the hip socket shapes the top of the turn, enabling you to adjust the turn radius and create more loading and deflection
post #72 of 78

how does it shape the top of the turn?  You are saying, without actually saying, that the ski is being twisted

post #73 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

I don't care how great of a skier JF is or the fact that he's one of the top L4's in your country.  He can still be wrong.  
True that! Me on the other hand, am always right!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Rather than pushing or twisting, the leg muscles help shape through the arc, preferably with ski tail following same track as the tip. No twist, no abrupt push, just turning.

So, put the ski on edge, bend it and it goes on an arc. You need to turn sharper, bend it more. What exactly do you do with the leg muscles to shape the turn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Pivoting the femur in the hip socket shapes the top of the turn, enabling you to adjust the turn radius and create more loading and deflection
nope. That part is completely wrong.

1. I do not need to pivot femurs in sockets, I can ski completely square. Witness the USSA GS manuals smile.gif you know the concept of being square to one's skis, right?

2. Read that manual again and try to understand page 13. Pivoting of your femur creates separation (or angulation, or edging, depending on which axis and how bent your knees are). Also does pivoting the hips over the femur. Neither shapes the turn. Edging and pressure does that: read page 14 a couple of times, especially the first and last paragraphs, which clearly distinguishes between pivoting and allowing the ski design to create the turn.

Don't confuse pivoting the femurs with pivoting the skis (which is not even mentioned in the manual). Now go back and read again.

3. Seriously, that manual shows a rising level of understanding on the part of the CSIA.... Will take a while until it is understood by the masses, though (and also until they fix page 6 - there is zero need to pivot anything before edging)...

4. How many here actually agree with your descriptions? I would pay attention to that.... Many here also tend to understand skiing...

Oy vey, caught in a pivoting debate again! frown.gif

P.s. This does not fit your definition of pivoting (the leg/femur): but I figure most would say he is clearly pivoting the skis....

http://youtu.be/OGh2L7dlSTw

And with this, I see the issue: it uses pivoting for both the leg in the hip around the middle of ski (not kidding) AND the femurs in the hips with a different meaning... bpth quite useless as instruction though. They describe what happens but nor how it happens....
Edited by razie - 3/1/15 at 4:07pm
post #74 of 78
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

how does it [steering the leg through the turn by turning the femur in the hip socket] shape the top of the turn?  You are saying, without actually saying, that the ski is being twisted

 

I posed the question in an earlier thread here: http://www.epicski.com/t/131006/core-strength-and-turn-shape#post_1805933  Rick described it as "hyperloading". jasp just called it torque that helps load the tips to bend the ski. I wouldn't call it twisting the ski when it's turning through the arc. Twisting to me is a bracquage movement.  

 

You've mentioned the story about the Canadian crouch before. That's a shame - it also surprises me since as we both know, a locked ankle joint introduces a lot of issues.

 

I just want to reiterate to please don't take what I'm saying as a statement from anyone but myself. I'm re-interpreting based on my world view, so let's not hold any course conductor to anything I'm saying. 

post #75 of 78

I cannot believe all the blasphemy I have read in this thread. You are all being reported to the Federal Bureau of Ski Investigations (FBSI) and this thread has been copied and sent to them.

If you become suspicious of two men in black ski suits behind you on the slopes in the next few days, remember, you have been warned.

post #76 of 78

How far you willing to go to get a response, Rich?

post #77 of 78

Apparently, not nearly as far as I thought. I suppose if I really wanted responses, I would have posted a couple hundred threads like "some" people like to.That's it. You're the first one on the list! What? No sense of humor? Sometimes a crazy meandering thread like that leave's a person a bit senseless. So many disagreements based on highly interpretive semantics. People fighting then making up ... cute! I suppose that when it comes to forums, that is the nature of the beast. But, I assure you that I am just kidding around. :)  I would never call the FBSI on anyone.


Edited by Rich666 - 3/2/15 at 5:26pm
post #78 of 78
I keep telling her...Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

I have been trying to get her into lessons for years, but I can never get her to do it.  I have tried so hard to get her out of the back seat for so long. ...trying to get her to... ...if I could get her to... I can't get her to stop doing it.  I have tried so hard to persuade her to take lessons.  I can't get her to do it. I may... make her go.  I got her into one private several years ago but she was not too keen on it. 

I'll tell you a story. It was maybe 10-15 years ago. I was teaching one of my girlfriends how to ski. She was pretty much a beginner. Anyway, during lineup one day I go up to some of the other instructors. I'm like, "guys, I'm teaching my girlfriend how to ski. She has trouble doing..." They cut me off mid-sentence. "I'll tell you what the problem is: (1) you're teaching your girlfriend how to ski. (2) you're teaching your girlfriend how to ski. (3) there is no step 3." That story stuck with me. It made a helluva lot of sense to me back then. In that moment. As it does now.

 

You're posting in the ski instruction forum. So, I'll tell you right now: how you're going about it... it's deeply, deeply unwanted by her. That much is clear as day. How many times does she have to say no? You can't "get her" to do anything. You can't "make her" do anything. Respect her choices. Respect her autonomy as a person. I strongly suggest you back off. 

 

What you can do: every-now-and-then, praise her for things she does well. Don't make it a performance review, like you're watching her every move. Let it come up naturally. Like if she says she felt great, you can reply, "Yeah, you really nailed those turns" or something sufficiently general. But that's it. Don't expect to get much more than that out of the discussion. And don't push for more. Let her curiosity govern what she gets out of you, ski-knowledge wise. Accept that she may not be very interested at all in your ski instruction. Accept it.

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