or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Ski binding discussion - PRD12 vs Attack 13
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Ski binding discussion - PRD12 vs Attack 13

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 

So I had noticed this earlier in the year, and had put it out of my mind until the recent WWSRA demo days when it resurfaced again. My question is simple.

Those of you that have skied the PRD12 (or PRX or similar) and the Attack13 or Marker Jester in the same day, did you notice a difference in edge engagement with the skis mounted with the PRD12's?

At the demo days, I noticed that all the skis I felt confident on, comfortable with the partial edge engagement on groomed snow, were skis that didn't have the PRD style binding mounted. Skis with the PRD's I still could like at full edge angle, but getting into the turn, I just didn't feel confident until the skis were building some pressure.

So my questions are, does anyone know the delta for the PRD's and the Attack's (and the Griffon's for that matter)? Or has anyone looked at the difference in lateral play between the PRD12 and the Attack 13?

I'm a bowl-legged ex-racer, and it seems like little changes in stance can have an impact on my skiing, just wondering if it is the bindings, or something else at play?

post #2 of 15

Bump

post #3 of 15

I skied the Head Strong Instinct Ti with PR 11 system bindings and ON3P Billy Goats with Attack 13 bindings the same day at SIA Copper Mountain demos.  I didn't notice any difference in edge engagement, beyond the fact that there is a 31mm difference in width between those two skis.  The Head was quick and fun to ski, as was the ON3P albiet slower edge to edge than the Head, but they do have different purposes.  I liked both skis enough that both are coming to live at my house this season.  I'm not sure if this will answer your question but it's all I have.

post #4 of 15

Check the delta angles of the 2 bindings (i can't remember them off the top of my head) If they are different by more than 2 or 3 mm this could explain what you felt. Probably demo bindings so take that into account. erdz

post #5 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by erdz View Post
 

Check the delta angles of the 2 bindings (i can't remember them off the top of my head) If they are different by more than 2 or 3 mm this could explain what you felt. Probably demo bindings so take that into account. erdz

Last time I checked angles were not measured in mm.  Did you mean degrees?

post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFox View Post
 

So my questions are, does anyone know the delta for the PRD's and the Attack's (and the Griffon's for that matter)? Or has anyone looked at the difference in lateral play between the PRD12 and the Attack 13?

I'm a bowl-legged ex-racer, and it seems like little changes in stance can have an impact on my skiing, just wondering if it is the bindings, or something else at play?

I think he means ramp difference, which is measured in mm. It's 5.5 mm for the PRD12, cannot speak to the Attacks or Griffons. 

 

Doubt lateral play is part of it; all the bindings you mention have good reputations. The PRD has upward release at the toe, which the Attack and Griffon do not, but that shouldn't impact edging.

 

If you're Genu varum - bow legged - you're probably also a supinator, do you use orthotics? Canted boot soles? If not, you're probably always having issues with delayed initiation, not to mention being a candidate for OA by early middle age. Could be that greater ramp diff would provide more pressure on your medial edges, make the skis seem more neutral. :dunno

post #7 of 15
The PRD's have some ramp angle. The Attacks a bit less. Around 4mm if I recall and of course BSL effects this as well. If you're bow legged and have alignment issues, that's a whole can of worms that needs to be resolved before worrying too much about bindings.
post #8 of 15

I try to pay attention to ramp angles, but they tend to be all over the map.  I would love for the ramp height stats to be published along with the DIN etc. as the ramp has a noticeable impact on the feel of a ski.  At least it does for me.

 

The Griffons started out with 4-5mm of ramp, and then at some point evolved to be pretty much flat.  The Attacks (I have a pair of 16s) are quite flat (maybe totally flat), with a low stand height of 17mm.  PRDs are somewhere around 4mm in ramp (off the top of my head).  Once you start comparing between demo and standard bindings in the same model things can change again.  It's a minefield I tell ya.

 

I like a goodly amount of ramp and tend to be happier on Look / Rossi / Dynastar bindings.  Even then the Race versions of the old PX binding is flatter than the non-Race versions.  Not sure about the newest (SPX and Axial 3) versions, as binding ramps have tended to become flatter with the more recent models and I've not met a pair of the new units yet.

 

I just purchased a pair of Rossi's SAS2 140 ti, and they supposedly have 5.5mm ramp (13mm at the toe and 18.5mm at the heel).  Axial 2 bindings have the same ramp, but a higher stand height (20.5mm and 26mm).

 

Both bindings mentioned by the OP are good units.  There's a strong chance a difference in ramp was making the skis feel slightly different at the initiation of the turn.


Edited by sinbad7 - 7/3/15 at 12:09am
post #9 of 15
... and they're on different skis. smile.gif
post #10 of 15

I don't notice any difference.  Never really thought about.  I have PR11's on the Rev 78's and the Attack 13's on the Rev 90's.  Both skis and bindings are '15 models.  Bindings are mounted using Head recommended mounting points.  Both skis are flexy.  I think it is hard to answer with anything but a generic response. 

post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

... and they're on different skis. smile.gif

 

 

Ha!  That too.

post #12 of 15

Can't differences in heel and toe height be managed my a shim under the offending end - lift the toe, lift the heel?  I'm not sure how this would be done on the Head/Tyrolia/Fisher PRD type binding, but - there must be a way!

post #13 of 15

Reasonable conjecture, but I worry that a shim under a plate like that - plastic not metal - will produce some loss of torsional resistance. Lost in all this is whether 1-2 mm difference between two bindings is really going to make a noticeable diff to skiing mechanics below the elite level. Maybe. Maybe not. But IMHO, it's the boots and varum than need attention first. 

post #14 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by oboe View Post

Can't differences in heel and toe height be managed my a shim under the offending end - lift the toe, lift the heel?  I'm not sure how this would be done on the Head/Tyrolia/Fisher PRD type binding, but - there must be a way!

I've talked to our Head rep about this on behalf of a friend who wanted a 156 Head Rally, and also has a very small foot. It can be done, but takes some work shimming plates and figuring out screw lengths, etc... On narrow skis, and a light skier, I don't think there's enough leverage or torque generated for anyone other than a very skilled racer to notice the difference if the plate were shimmed to zero the ramp angle.
post #15 of 15

As we all say - Your Mileage May Vary. When a coach tried different shims under my toe - they worked.  The coach noticed the difference, I noticed the difference - and a fellow instructor who had no idea that anything had been done but was just free skiing with me said - without any inquiry on my part - that I was skiing better than he'd seen me ski before and that my stance was more appropriately upright. As I said - YMMV.  It all depends on how much delta there is. The delta on the Kastle/Tyrolia/Head Attack 13 bindings on my Kastle FX94 [2015] work well - for ME. If a binding varies significantly from that, and I still want the other features of that binding, then I have no problem at all paying for whatever custom work needs to be done. I don't care if someone else hypothesizes that I won't or can't notice it - I want to regulate that variable so I don't need to consider it further and focus on my technique and teaching. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Ski binding discussion - PRD12 vs Attack 13