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GUIDANCE WITH SKIER ISSUE

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

I have an advance parallel skier with divergent tips at initiation of turn. 

what can I do to help skier develop pressure control and edge angles to keep the skier's tips parallel and engaged at initiation?

 

Can you think of any tasks that will help this skier?

post #2 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michigan Skier View Post

I have an advance parallel skier with divergent tips at initiation of turn. 
what can I do to help skier develop pressure control and edge angles to keep the skier's tips parallel and engaged at initiation?

Can you think of any tasks that will help this skier?

Is there a specific reason you need to "fix" that?

We often use diverging parallel to fix other issues.

Is it causing another problem?

DC
post #3 of 26

I see this a lot in Intermediates / Intermediates +.

 

In my opinion its a way to get the inside hip inside the skis more quickly,

and I tend to see it more in skiers that learned on straight skis.

It typically is followed by "dumping the hip" inside the turn.

 

I'm not a fan of this - skies are now on different arcs and the Center of Mass is now 'between the feet'

   one foot is ahead of the hips the other is lagging.  And it will have to be reversed at the next transition

 

So I would focus on the inside knee/ankle release of the old turn:

    Fan exercises with uphill turns initiated with the inside (and uphill) knee to experience inside ski pulling outside with it.

    Garland releases with down the hill turns initiated with the downhill knee.

 

One footed skiing from finish to neutral to initiation (big toe edge to flat to little to edge) might help if they are ready for that.

 

While you didn't mention it, correct pole direction and timing may help "pull" the skier

across the skis (both skis release simultaneously)

post #4 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbrad66 View Post

I see this a lot in Intermediates / Intermediates +.

I'm not a fan of this - skies are now on different arcs and the Center of Mass is now 'between the feet'
   one foot is ahead of the hips the other is lagging.  And it will have to be reversed at the next transition

I agree with much of your comments. I was also reading "advanced" parallel skier as an upper level skier with close to or simultaneous release. An intermediate skier, it can cause all kinds of problems as you have pointed out.

I am just trying to get a clearer picture of the concern and request.
post #5 of 26
The diverge often is the result of failing to roll the new inside ski onto its outside edge at initiation. The extension of the new outside leg onto a new edge is not accompanied by a simultaneous engagement of the new edge on the inside ski, so it remains flat and diverges. I'd use little toe edge exercises.
post #6 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

The diverge often is the result of failing to roll the new inside ski onto its outside edge at initiation. The extension of the new outside leg onto a new edge is not accompanied by a simultaneous engagement of the new edge on the inside ski, so it remains flat and diverges. I'd use little toe edge exercises.


Not sure I'm reading that right... Why would you want to roll the new inside ski onto it's outside edge (BTE?)? Unless you mean on to the LTE. but if you don't roll the new inside ski onto it's little toe edge you would have convergence or a wedge turn if the new outside ski was getting engaged..

post #7 of 26
Outside edge=LTE. If that ski stays flat, it sometimes gets pivoted into a diverge.
post #8 of 26

need more information or video to analyze this properly.  A number of different things can cause divergence.

post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Outside edge=LTE. If that ski stays flat, it sometimes gets pivoted into a diverge.
Got it.. However if you engage the LTE of the inside ski without a dominant outside ski and active guiding of both you could also have a divergent ski tip. A lot can be going on.

Hence my first post.
post #10 of 26

Hands on knees drill will help the skier avoid divergent tips.  After that, I think of canting issues from the skier being knock-kneed or bull legged. Otherwise, if the skier is at an advanced level, the original post leads me to believe the skier is having balance issues.  Side slip, falling leaf and lifting the inside/uphill ski can help. Aside from that, I can only speculate that the skier is not moving forward to release the edges and bring the skis to a flat position at transition, and is trying to stay on the weighted downhill ski and isn't quite sure how to go about shifting their weight to their new outside ski.  This wouldn't be an issue at an advanced level though.  

post #11 of 26

He's probably not balanced on his outside ski. One possibility might be initiating turns from a sideslip.

post #12 of 26

This video helped me a lot, just visualizing the concept of getting my inside ski out from under me made an immediate change in my divergence which I've been building on.

 

post #13 of 26

key points from the video, spot on by the way...

 

- too much lead change

 

- not enough outside ski balance

 

to fix:

 

- Pull the feet back, especially the inside foot

 

- tip first from the ankles, then from the knees, finally the hips last

 

- trust the outside ski to balance on it and create pressure on it.

post #14 of 26

and project the inside ski out to the side along with the outside ski.

 

to me this is related to the x-move.

post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

and project the inside ski out to the side along with the outside ski.

 

to me this is related to the x-move.

 

Yea I didn't hear him say anything like that in the video and nor would I say anything like that.  I think you're referring to something like the foot squirt balonie, this video had nothing in it whatsoever along those lines.  He said to pull the inside back and roll it over.  He said nothing about "projecting it out" or x-move stuff.

 

great MA though!

post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

and project the inside ski out to the side along with the outside ski.

 

to me this is related to the x-move.

 

Yea I didn't hear him say anything like that in the video and nor would I say anything like that.  I think you're referring to something like the foot squirt balonie, this video had nothing in it whatsoever along those lines.  He said to pull the inside back and roll it over.  He said nothing about "projecting it out" or x-move stuff.

 

great MA though!

 

At about 1:50.

 

"Both skis pointing out and away this way, and then they would come back under you..." He draws an arrow pointing to the left, and than an arced arrow coming back to the right.

 

This is the x-move.  The skis taking a longer path than the body, moving out and away and then coming back under you.   

post #17 of 26

no sir.  That is the direction the skis should always slide and he wants him to allow the inside ski to slide that direction also.  He does not tell him to "project" them there away from his body.

post #18 of 26

He said and then "coming back to the right" and to "come back" means they must be "away."

 

That sir is how I interpret it.

post #19 of 26
He stated numerous times to pullback the inside foot and roll it over. That is in stark contrast to what you are suggesting now.
post #20 of 26

The pullback happens after transition.  I pull my inside ski back as well, after I move both skis out and away from my body to begin the arc.

post #21 of 26
Try pulling it back sooner SMJ
post #22 of 26

I like moving forward.

post #23 of 26

Ok then don't.  hehe..  but pulling your foot back helps you move forward.  Sorry SMJ, but nothing in that video is about foot squirt or thrusting your feet out to the side.  Nor is thrusting your foot forward going to solve the problem of divergence.

post #24 of 26

  The key is to begin relaxing the stance leg (outside) prior to it's crossing under the hip in tranny (and then rolling it LTE) which will send it out from under the CM and "away", because the CM is freed and moves inside so readily--smoothly facilitating the dual paths of CM/BOS. Doing so will initiate a kinetic chain of events which will pull the new outside onto it's BTE.

 

 
Notice how in this video how moving inside and getting "forward" at the same time looks almost effortless:


Edited to add that skiing from the "feet up" in such a manner will greatly reduce/eliminate divergence that is caused by thrusting the hips across and falling in the new inside ski smile.gif

zenny


Edited by zentune - 2/19/15 at 8:40am
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Try pulling it back sooner SMJ

 

I did this today and it's a good feeling.  More keeping the ankles closed than "pulling back the feet" but it's just semantics in a way.

 

However the x-move is still part of it.  Get the "foot squirt" words out of your mind.  It's like "global warming" on a cold day.  It's "climate change."

 

It's the x-move.  Barnes doesn't like the term foot squirt either.

 

Bob Barnes is not some fringe guy with some weird ideas, nor are WC racers who also project their skis out and away from their bodies.

 
The feet have to travel a longer path than the COM.  
 

The shins can keep contact with the cuffs of the boots while this is happening.

post #26 of 26
Glad to hear you at least tried it. First, diverging paths of the BoS and CoM is going to happen no matter what. How you go about doing that will determine whether you remain in balance. "Projecting" your feet out to the side is not how you will stay in balance, nor how you create early ski engagement on the outside ski. More likely you will fall to the inside, which creates divergence by the way.

Instead of projecting your feet out, you want to tip your feet like crazy, which is enhanced by pulling them back. Not just maintaining shin contact, I'm talking pulling it back. And allow your CoM to move inside of the new turn at just the right amount, and with sufficient counter balancing such that balance is maintained on the outside ski while edge angles are developed and inclination is developed. Think of your skis as already being on the path they need to be on. You need to get your CoM inside, while retaining balance.

You may say its just a different way of describing the same thing, but its not. Your skis are the thing connected to the snow that is directing the path your CoM will take. Your CoM does not follow a curved track on its own. It has inertia that will carry it on a straight path unless the skis push on it to nudge it along a curved path. So you don't want to push your feet away from it. You want to do what it takes so that your feet push your CoM towards the inside, and allow your CoM to flow inside, while retaining balance on the outside ski at the same time. Projecting your feet away from your CoM really seperates them in a sense, but why would you want to do that?
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