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World Cup Slalom Skiers Skiing Moguls

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

Does anyone know of any video of World Cup slalom skiers skiing moguls? Those skiers can obviously make incredibly quick and precise short turns, but the one thing they don't have to deal with on a slalom course is the third dimension, the bump, front and back, and the absorption and extension in coordination with the turn needed to deal with that.

 

Just curious - would love to see that. Or hear stories if vid not available.

post #2 of 22

just my .02

 

Slalom turns are HUGE compared to mogul skiing turns, the terrain is not nearly as steep and there are no groomers on the God Made.
Natural terrain is a different game, Black vs Blue.

 

If there was any video of WC slalom skiers in the moguls, I'd like to see it.  Not saying there are no WC slalom skiers that can hold a fall line down a Black, but I'd bet they are rare.

 

Nail

post #3 of 22
Can't answer the question exactly, but everyone I grew up with who were strong racers could all rip bumps no problem. I'm sure many still can and do. We sort of took pride in it. As a kid, I followed Henri Duvillard down a very steep bump run with huge bumps... He killed it. Amazing skier. I sure hope this doesn't devolve into a 'racers suck' thread. The best are excellent all around skiers. It just as silly saying WC bumpers can't ski. These days all the disciplines are so focused and specialized (including gear) that it's tough for the athletes to be as strong in another discipline as they are in their primary area, but the basic skills and athleticism are all there given some time, input, and gear changes... Think Jon Olsson.
post #4 of 22
You can't be serious.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
 

just my .02

 

Slalom turns are HUGE compared to mogul skiing turns, the terrain is not nearly as steep and there are no groomers on the God Made.
Natural terrain is a different game, Black vs Blue.


A world cup slalom course is not your local NASTAR course; they are all black runs.

 

If there was any video of WC slalom skiers in the moguls, I'd like to see it.  Not saying there are no WC slalom skiers that can hold a fall line down a Black, but I'd bet they are rare.

 

Plenty of them manage to "hold a fall line down a Black" in the Supercombined.

 

Nail

I would love to see video of them in the bumps, but they would make most of us look bad.

post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

just my .02

Slalom turns are HUGE compared to mogul skiing turns, the terrain is not nearly as steep and there are no groomers on the God Made.

Natural terrain is a different game, Black vs Blue.

If there was any video of WC slalom skiers in the moguls, I'd like to see it.  Not saying there are no WC slalom skiers that can hold a fall line down a Black, but I'd bet they are rare.

Nail

I think you seriously underestimate the terrain they ski and their overall skill sets. Believe me, they would ski you into the dirt. As would a WC bumper.
post #6 of 22

 

Towards end of video.

post #7 of 22
Nail- you are seriously full of it. Any WC skiers has balance and strength that far exceeds what you need for any bump run. Did you think Bode bump skiing sucked in that video? Google Darhon Rahlves in a Banzai finals to see what a totally different style of skiing bumps could be ;-). For some interesting free sking search for Travis Ganong. That guy rarely gets intimidated by steep slopes ( and he does OK on the world racing stage as well).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post

just my .02

Slalom turns are HUGE compared to mogul skiing turns, the terrain is not nearly as steep and there are no groomers on the God Made.

Natural terrain is a different game, Black vs Blue.

If there was any video of WC slalom skiers in the moguls, I'd like to see it.  Not saying there are no WC slalom skiers that can hold a fall line down a Black, but I'd bet they are rare.

Nail
post #8 of 22

I took a lesson once from a young woman who was recently retired from some eastern European (can't remember which) national ski team. By her own admission she couldn't ski bumps worth a damn. She said it was because she spent all her time chasing gates rather than free skiing. She could get down bumps but no better than any other decent skier. She said that was not uncommon.

 

So, they can't ALL do it.

post #9 of 22

You'll probably get disappointed:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucg-Cfbqof4

post #10 of 22
Thread Starter 

Well Nail, Bode at least skied on the bumps - that should make you kinda happy.

 

I certainly didn't start this thread with the hope it would (d)evolve into a mud-slinging contest. Like Mark I believe all top skiers in their disciplines are great skiers, and worthy of admiration, but skill sets do vary, and some are more well-rounded than others. Just was curious to see how good WC skiers look in bumps. Bode and Picabo so far, hopefully more to come.

 

In my own quest to ski bumps I find myself gravitating toward a more attacking style - going at the bumps, often skiing over them instead of in the troughs, trying to carve/make turns at specific points on the bumps, and trying to find that feel of following the contour of the bump, staying on the snow. I don't do well going to the bottom of the trough, hitting the bump, and pivoting around it, although I could probably stand to develop that approach and refine it over time. It's another skill, another trick in the bag, and when done well by expert bumpers it is subtle, smooth, and very effective, not clunky like a beginner bumper hockey stopping at each bump.

 

One things for certain, bumps are a lot easier when they're soft, so spring is a good time to practice.   ;-)

 

Originally Posted by alexzn View Post

Google Darhon Rahlves in a Banzai finals to see what a totally different style of skiing bumps could be ;-).

 

I know exactly what you're talking about - go to 41:00 if the vid doesn't take you there...

 

 

That blows me away every time I see it!  ;-)


Edited by jc-ski - 2/13/15 at 11:06am
post #11 of 22
Wow, literally knees compressed up to chin, think many of us would be flying at that moment.
post #12 of 22
Quote:

jc-ski wrote:

Well Nail, Bode at least skied on the bumps - that should make you kinda happy.

 

I did like that.  I thought the best part of Bode's mogul skiing was his committed rythym and line, he kept linking turns regardless of the terrain. 

 

Lots of good stuff in those quick sections, but consistently lacking shovel edge pressure.

 

I wasn't so keen on the "shopping for a better line" tip either, but hey, he's controversial.

 

He certainly can hold a fall line down a Black, nice find.

 

Nail

post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Can't answer the question exactly, but everyone I grew up with who were strong racers could all rip bumps no problem. I'm sure many still can and do. We sort of took pride in it. As a kid, I followed Henri Duvillard down a very steep bump run with huge bumps... He killed it. Amazing skier. I sure hope this doesn't devolve into a 'racers suck' thread. The best are excellent all around skiers. It just as silly saying WC bumpers can't ski. These days all the disciplines are so focused and specialized (including gear) that it's tough for the athletes to be as strong in another discipline as they are in their primary area, but the basic skills and athleticism are all there given some time, input, and gear changes... Think Jon Olsson.


This is the best post of the year here about skiing in general at the highest levels.

post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
 

 

I did like that.  I thought the best part of Bode's mogul skiing was his committed rythym and line, he kept linking turns regardless of the terrain. 

 

Lots of good stuff in those quick sections, but consistently lacking shovel edge pressure.

 

I wasn't so keen on the "shopping for a better line" tip either, but hey, he's controversial.

 

He certainly can hold a fall line down a Black, nice find.

 

Nail

 

 

Hold the fall line... 

 

there are different perceptions of that, 

I will never forget following Ralves into Chute 75 at SV on a bumped up day, me turning on every bump, dialing my entry for the key few entry turns that are really steep (for me), as Darren goes flyin' by me in the air, 3 bumps, contact redirect... and as I hit my spot at the entry, he was gone, 10 turns and out, 1500 ft of bumps, definitely fall line, and more black then anything god every imagined to give sun valley, in my memory.

 

but, I do know what you are saying.

 

so much of it is the blend of skills, racers hate the choices and moves that it takes to make the turns that win world cup bump contest, or keep them in the line Nail would want to be their test, once again a perceptual thing. they feel it cheapens the turn.

 

also agree w/ the h2nosnow, not all racers ski bumps well, often great racers come from little mtns, where they are focused on gates, and don't have real terrain, good for their focus, less distractions.  racers that come from mtns w/ steep bumps runs can ski 'em imo.

 

Cheers,

Holiday

post #15 of 22

Back in the late 70's I was skiing Thanes Canyon at Park City and saw a bunch of buys and girls from the U.S. ski team out free skiing the bumps.  They were carving wide radius GS turns down a heavily moguled run.  Their thighs were going up and down like huge shock absorbers and tier upper bodies were perfectly quiet and still.  Far from regular bump skiing and very  impressive and interesting to watch. At the time you were not allowed to ski the Thayne's runs with shorter than 195cm skis.  I am thinking those guys were on 210's or longer.

post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday View Post
 

 

 

Hold the fall line... 

 

there are different perceptions of that, 

I will never forget following Ralves into Chute 75 at SV on a bumped up day, me turning on every bump, dialing my entry line for the key few entry turns (the crux entry is after 10 or so bump turns in the approach) that are really steep (for me), as Darren goes flyin' by me in the air, 3 bumps, contact redirect... and as I hit my spot at the entry, he was gone, 10 turns and out, 1500 ft of bumps, definitely fall line, and more black then anything god every imagined to give sun valley, in my memory.

 

but, I do know what you are saying.

 

so much of it is the blend of skills, racers hate the choices and moves that it takes to make the turns that win world cup bump contest, or keep them in the line Nail would want to be their test, once again a perceptual thing. they feel it cheapens the turn.

 

also agree w/ the h2nosnow, not all racers ski bumps well, often great racers come from little mtns, where they are focused on gates, and don't have real terrain, good for their focus, less distractions.  racers that come from mtns w/ steep bumps runs can ski 'em imo.

 

Cheers,

Holiday

post #17 of 22
Thread Starter 
 
Originally Posted by crank View Post
 

Back in the late 70's I was skiing Thanes Canyon at Park City and saw a bunch of buys and girls from the U.S. ski team out free skiing the bumps.  They were carving wide radius GS turns down a heavily moguled run.  Their thighs were going up and down like huge shock absorbers and tier upper bodies were perfectly quiet and still.  Far from regular bump skiing and very  impressive and interesting to watch. At the time you were not allowed to ski the Thayne's runs with shorter than 195cm skis.  I am thinking those guys were on 210's or longer.

 

I think there's a guy who won the Gunbarrel 25 at Heavenly a few years in a row skiing like that. Pissed the "real" bumpers off.  ;-)

 

Here's my pipe dream that almost certainly will not happen...

 

Beaver Creek has a lot of bump hills - you could see some of them in the background at the Alpine World Championships that just finished up today. I would love to see video of Hirscher and Shiffrin skiing those bumps aggressively, just to see what they'd do, and how.

 

Related question...

 

Other than for general fitness and proficiency sliding around on two planks would it benefit World Cup Slalom Skiers to develop competitive mogul skiing skills?


Edited by jc-ski - 2/15/15 at 6:26pm
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

I think there's a guy who won the Gunbarrel 25 at Heavenly a few years in a row skiing like that. Pissed the "real" bumpers off.  ;-)

Here's my pipe dream that almost certainly will not happen...

Beaver Creek has a lot of bump hills - you could see some of them in the background at the Alpine World Championships that just finished up today. I would love to see video of Hirscher and Shiffrin skiing those bumps aggressively, just to see what they'd do, and how.

Related question...

Other than for general fitness and proficiency sliding around on two planks would it benefit World Cup Slalom Skiers to develop competitive mogul skiing skills?

If they skied SL in bumps maybe. smile.gif. They have the skills, but the 'desired outcome' and the gear to achieve it becomes divergent enough that it makes speculation irrelevant. I'd rather have Mikaela's paycheck though, that's for sure.
post #19 of 22

No question about it. With a few minor tweeks they rip like any pro mogul racer in the zipper line. SL racers in particular. They have quick feet and legs and are used to much much worse than a bumpy half a minute minute ride.

post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

...

 

Other than for general fitness and proficiency sliding around on two planks would it benefit World Cup Slalom Skiers to develop competitive mogul skiing skills?

 

The stacked stance (mogul version of stacked that is) would hurt them.  So, no.  With wet snow in particular, you can get ruts that are pump track-ish, and the skills there are sort of cousins to what competitive bumpers do, but only cousins. 

post #21 of 22
Thread Starter 

I was thinking perhaps the quickness of the feet and the enhanced ability to flex and extend during turns required by mogul skiing might be beneficial in a kind of cross training sense, even if the techniques would not apply directly due to differences in slalom and bump courses.

 

Seems like maybe working to become a true expert in multiple disciplines could actually provide benefits for a particular discipline, as opposed to a singular, focused specialization - kind of a Bruce Lee approach to skiing - but then there's ultimately only so much time on the snow.

 

Hearing a little about Lasse Kjus and what he accomplished at the last Alpine World Championships in Colorado got me wondering about stuff like this.

 

But then I guess he was a pretty exceptional skier...

 

 


Edited by jc-ski - 2/16/15 at 11:01am
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

I was thinking perhaps the quickness of the feet and the enhanced ability to flex and extend during turns required by mogul skiing might be beneficial in a kind of cross training sense, even if the techniques would not apply directly due to differences in slalom and bump courses...

 

I'd separate what's beneficial for very specialized pursuits, from what's beneficial for strong all-round skiing skills.  Kjus, for instance, is an example that even different race skis themselves can make a huge difference and cause confusion (I also get a kick out of his lifting of the inside ski, which some insist racers never do anymore...)  But, using Picabo Street as an example, while her bump technique now may be a little relaxed, I have every confidence that with bump skis and two days' worth of drills, three tops, she'd be looking in terms of turns, not airs, like a decent bumper on a mellow bump field.  Because the overall skills do translate well.  Working on skiing flushes isn't that different from some of the drills bumpers do before getting into bumps themselves, for that matter. 

 

Both racing and bumping also put a premium on NOT grooving a default highly anticipated, rotary driven approach to turns, which is also good to keep in mind.  I think most recreational skiers would do well to alternate a bump camp with a race or freeride camp, every year or alternating years. 

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