or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Cause for inside ski smear at apex?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Cause for inside ski smear at apex?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
I like to observe my own tracks when possible, and I noticed something that happen at times. My outside ski track is the same thin line throughout the turn, but inside ski start to smear approaching apex, and stops after. The smear pattern is pretty symmetrical with regard to start/finish point.

I'm thinking it's caused by too early/much counter/hip angulation, which in turn causes my inside leg to a-frame/rotate towards outside of turn, and maybe too little weight on inside ski. Thoughts?

20150211_zps72fb13b7.jpg~original
post #2 of 25
Weight on the inside ski from improper balance on the outside ski and I should add improper inside ski management.
post #3 of 25

My guess would be inadequate inside ski tipping and pressure, maybe including improper pressure balance on same, what some might call improper inside ski management. 

post #4 of 25

It is simple. The inside should LEAD the edging, not follow. The inside ski should remain active at all times even if there is little or no pressure on it. It is obvious as others have pointed out that you do not have equal edge angle on your inside ski.   I'd love to see a video of you skiing.

post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

It is simple. The inside should LEAD the edging, not follow. The inside ski should remain active at all times even if there is little or no pressure on it. It is obvious as others have pointed out that you do not have equal edge angle on your inside ski.   I'd love to see a video of you skiing.

Me too. biggrin.gif Hopefully I can get one next week.
post #6 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

I like to observe my own tracks when possible, and I noticed something that happen at times. My outside ski track is the same thin line throughout the turn, but inside ski start to smear approaching apex, and stops after. The smear pattern is pretty symmetrical with regard to start/finish point.

I'm thinking it's caused by too early/much counter/hip angulation, which in turn causes my inside leg to a-frame/rotate towards outside of turn, and maybe too little weight on inside ski. Thoughts?

20150211_zps72fb13b7.jpg~original


That image on the left does not show a smearing inside ski.  It shows a flat inside ski.  

That ski needs to be up on edge.  There are several conceptual ways of approaching this.  All these help get the inside ski up on edge and doing its job well.

 

1.  First, focus on the inside ankle.  Try tipping that inside ankle over harder, more, lower, lower as the turn happens.  Think about making its outside ankle bone touch the snow.  Start this at initiation.

2.  Another ankle focus:  try lifting the big toe edge of that inside foot inside the boot.  Or think of it as lifting the arch.  Lift it more, more, higher as the turn happens. Start at initiation and keep doing it.

3.  Try focusing on your inside knee.  Move it away from the other knee, as in going bowlegged with it.  Focus on keeping its distance from the outside knee LARGE.   Start doing this at initiation.

4.  Another focus on the inside knee: point it in the direction of the new turn at initiation, and keep pointing it more, harder, more, more as the turn progresses.  Or think:  knee points at trees, more, more.

5.  One more thing for the inside knee.  Lift it up as the turn progresses, higher, higher, moving it upward towards your armpit.  

6.  Another focus can be on the whole inside foot. Swivel it slowly over its arch so its toes point in the direction of the new turn.  Start doing this at initiation, and do it more, more, more through the turn.

 

**Be sure to lean your upper body out over your outside ski as the turn progresses as you do any of these.  It should carry your weight, and the active inside foot/leg should be waay lighter.  You might even try lifting that inside ski off the snow.  Nothing should happen when you're doing this if you're doing things right.

 

If you find that you cannot do any of these six things, there's some blockage going on with your stance.  

Do you ski into counter?  That is, does your upper body, including hips, stay more pointing down the hill than your skis as they move past the fall line and into the new direction?  The answer should be yes. And remember to lean out over your downhill ski so it carries the load.   Skiing into counter and angulating over the outside ski are related.

 

Practice each or any of these first while standing static at the top of a run, then do one turn doing it.  Be sure your focus in on the inside ankle, foot, knee, from the very start of your new turn.

Check for incoming traffic before doing any of these, of course.  

Look at tracks for signs of success.  


Edited by LiquidFeet - 2/12/15 at 5:57am
post #7 of 25
If you really bend the outide ski, with most of your weight on it, I think that the inside ski suppl not bend, sdi even if it is tipped to the same edge angle, it will smear a little, especially if you don't let it diverge.


Thoughts?
post #8 of 25
Probably has divergent skis. Pull that inside foot under at transition so your foot is under your hip.
post #9 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post


That image on the left does not show a smearing inside ski.  It shows a flat inside ski.  

It's not flat ski, that I'm 100% sure of. Maybe I took photo of the wrong track? redface.gif The one on right is more typical of the smear I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

Probably has divergent skis. Pull that inside foot under at transition so your foot is under your hip.

When I look down, I actually see convergent skis when this happens, hence my original thought of too early/much counter and rotated inside leg towards outside of turn.
post #10 of 25
Really. That could end up badly. I concentrate on stacking the inside foot under me so that I can turn shape with it. Fine tuning takes hours of work/practice so be patient. From the look of the tracks your skiing quite well.
post #11 of 25

I looked at your tracks again with fresher eyes.  It appears to me that your inside ski goes edged>flat>edged throughout the turn. In my personal approach to skiing and teaching one of the tenets of my "system" is CONTINUOUS ACTIVE INSIDE SKI".   From the look of it it seems that you're just allowing it to go flat in the middle of the turn when it should be edging progressively more and more. LF is right. It's not smeared, It's just traveling on a flatter bottom for the time that you see in the track.  But based on the insufficiently active inside ski, I can bet there are other issues that are attached to it, whether or not the inactive inside ski is the cause or the effect. 

post #12 of 25

I also believe that track analysis has become very relevant with modern turns. I agree with whomever said that your inside track looks like that of a flat ski and not a smear. Now, after all the above discourse, your not even sure if you have the correct photo displayed? Ugh! Regardless whether a flat ski or a smear, if that is your typical inside ski track, you are probably A framing your way down the hill. Absent the professionally obligatory sensitivity of a ski instructor, I have the freedom to incorporate the male ego as the quickest route to correction for which I say: The new name for A framing is the "geek tweak". :)  The good news is that from the look of your outside track, a consistently complimentary inside track "should" not be far away. Now that just about any good skier can leave a nice set of sharp, parallel arcs in the snow, the real tell-tale of skill in the tracks is in the transition. The transition wants to be quick and the resulting "record" in your tracks show as short as the length of your ski. Doing this requires the enhanced upper-lower body separation, slinky legs and quick feet we all aspire to.

post #13 of 25

Pull the inside foot back and more than you think you should. Point the inside knee into the hill toward the inside of the turn. 

post #14 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich666 View Post

I also believe that track analysis has become very relevant with modern turns. I agree with whomever said that your inside track looks like that of a flat ski and not a smear. Now, after all the above discourse, your not even sure if you have the correct photo displayed? .

I am pretty sure, but I don't know how it could look like a flat ski since it would be physically impossible for me to have a flat inside ski during those turns.
post #15 of 25

My $.02 is that you are putting almost all your weight on your outside ski and not weighting your inside ski.    Without any weight on the inside ski it isn't bent (or rather it retains the camber of an unweighted ski), and so it smears through the snow.

 

Solution: concentrate on keeping roughly equal weight on both skis.  Or get yourself a pair of those funny pre-bent rockered skis. (c:

post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post

If you really bend the outide ski, with most of your weight on it, I think that the inside ski suppl not bend, sdi even if it is tipped to the same edge angle, it will smear a little, especially if you don't let it diverge.


Thoughts?


Go ahead and try it on your carpet, it doesn't take much pressure to make that inside ski touch the carpet at the bindings, even when tipped quite a bit.

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
 

My $.02 is that you are putting almost all your weight on your outside ski and not weighting your inside ski.    Without any weight on the inside ski it isn't bent (or rather it retains the camber of an unweighted ski), and so it smears through the snow.

 

Solution: concentrate on keeping roughly equal weight on both skis.  Or get yourself a pair of those funny pre-bent rockered skis. (c:

 

50/50.....Not usually!  Check out the thread on lifting the inside ski!

 

The inside ski does not need to have much weight in fact little on it to simply track on the little toe edge.  

 

It is a matter of tipping to the little toe edge , pulling the inside foot back and pointing the knee into the hill with the a majority of weight on your outside ski.

 

I like to think of that inside ski little toe edge as a "Virtual Edge" 

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


Go ahead and try it on your carpet, it doesn't take much pressure to make that inside ski touch the carpet at the bindings, even when tipped quite a bit.

Thumbs Up 

post #18 of 25

Make sure you are not dumping your hip, then you can play with inside foot tipping and pullback.

post #19 of 25

Improper balance and weighting (weight very slightly back), likely a little stiff in the lower body, and finally you are leading the turn with the inside ski and not carving the ski (hopefully that last one makes sense).

post #20 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thanks, was going again today, but its -22 out and -35 with wind, so looks like I'm staying home today.
post #21 of 25
Sunday looks like a write off too.
post #22 of 25
Thread Starter 
Yeah, going to Sutton on Monday regardless, so hopefully the weather cooperates.
post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

It is simple. The inside should LEAD the edging, not follow. The inside ski should remain active at all times even if there is little or no pressure on it. It is obvious as others have pointed out that you do not have equal edge angle on your inside ski.   I'd love to see a video of you skiing.

Agree.  You are maybe lazy with inside ski at times.  Some believe that the inside ski should continue to tip throughout the turn and that the outside ski tipping never quite catches the inside ski tipping.  To continue to tip the inside ski you must also  counter balance strongly. Not enough counter balance moves weight inside.  Weight inside with inside ski flat???????????? Must admit it happens to me at times as well.  Keep tipping and relaxing inside ski.  Can also occur if you fail to continue to pull the inside foot back throughout the turn as the inside leg has less ability to tip if it moves ahead.  YM

post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 

...To continue to tip the inside ski you must also  counter balance strongly...

That is about the artful tracking of the CoM.  Part art, part science, part voodoo. 

post #25 of 25

Video makes for much better track analysis if you can get it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYw0M6uuWCU

 

Nice quick transition visible at :40

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Cause for inside ski smear at apex?