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Fluke binding release?

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

Expert 50 yr. old skier - 5'8"/160 lbs./Din setting 6

 

I have a new rig - Rossi Soul 7 with Tyrolia Attack 13

 

Today I was skiing down a black diamond with 1 1/2 foot powder over hard bumps.  With the snow tracked up to a degree I would bottom out occasionally in some of the troughs.  At a good rate of speed I simply dropped into a trough and as I hit some hard snow I released.  There was a quick torque to my ski under my foot that I felt but it was nothing more than a few inches either way.  I fully expected to keep skiing.  I'm not sure if I popped out of the toe or heel. I was not thrown forward but more a quick jolt to the left or right.  

 

Not happy I cleaned any snow out and switched skis.  It never happened again the whole day with hard skiing.  When I had put the bindings on in the 1st place it was fully clean so I don't think snow caused it.

 

Two theories come to mind:

 

1.  After the 1st day of skiing on this rig I returned to the shop to have them tighten up the toe piece/boot pressure since I could feel the boot slightly moving in the toe piece area when I was sidestepping uphill in some powder.  I could shake the ski on the lift and feel slight movement.  The shop said they tightened it up a bit for me.  But they also said they used the standard "credit card" under the boot and on top of the AFD when they initially mounted it.  Could my toe piece be tightened too much now affecting the release?

 

2.  At only a Din setting of 6 could I have hit that trough just right with the right quick torque to release it?  Creating a need to maybe up it to 7?

 

Thanks for advice!

post #2 of 26
You cleans the snow off your boot. Is it at all possible that you stepped in the heel off center? That would result in too much forward pressure and you wouldn't feel it skiing necessarily. We've all done it at one time or another. I wouldn't make any major changes unless the bindings pre release again since they did fine the rest if the day under hard skiing.
post #3 of 26

When a binding releases when it should, you don't feel much. That's the whole point. It sounds like the binding reacted as it should have, no problems at all the rest of the day, I'd hold off on changing DIN until you have a few more data points (releases) where you observe if you released from the heel or the toe. If the heel is up after a release it's a heel release, If it's down it was a toe release.

post #4 of 26
The first thing I would do is check your forward pressure. If that's off it could cause the binding to prerelease. Did you twist out or did it just pop off? That binding doesn't have upward release in the toe I don't think.

Is a 6 a level II or III? If you're skiing a lots of bumps on a II setting you may have to go up. I'd give it a few more releases firstthough, as others stated.
post #5 of 26
Prolly nothing wrong w/ the binding interface. Like whiteroom said. At your skill level I would increase your DIN to 8-9. I'm 12 yrs your senior @ 200# and run a DIN 10 w/ no problems. But still releases when reaches it's overload. Which isn't always prefered on occasion.
post #6 of 26

I don't know how short your boots are, but a 6 releases pretty easy on my 315 mm boots.

 

Still, only one data point isn't much to go on. 

 

Also agree check forward pressure adjustment, and if you increase the DIN, do it at most 1/2 at a time, and see how hard it is to convince the binding standing still with someone standing on your skis (don't be stubborn and hurt yourself doing this because you think you HAVE to be able to do it).

post #7 of 26
Without the BSL anything is a guess at best to start. Off set step in doubt it, lack of forward pressure same. I would likely guess you where set as a II, and happened to hit a point were you actually loaded the ski and popped the toe. Heels don't generally reset themselves. What I suspect that higher level skiers can actually hit higher momentary loads which is why higher DIN settings are used. A sustained load would actually cause injury.
post #8 of 26
FWIW this is one reason I don't like bindings with toe height adjustments, they make it harder to troubleshoot problems.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

When a binding releases when it should, you don't feel much. That's the whole point. It sounds like the binding reacted as it should have, no problems at all the rest of the day, I'd hold off on changing DIN until you have a few more data points (releases) where you observe if you released from the heel or the toe. If the heel is up after a release it's a heel release, If it's down it was a toe release.

This. Your bindings reacted the way they were designed to.  Have had it happen to me in similar circumstances. Nothing freakish at all.

post #10 of 26
Considering he has a binding that only has lateral release and forward release I wouldn't be quick to say it released properly, but many that's just me. The two types of "prereleases" you normally get that aren't due to the binding releasing normally is skiing into ruts mogul skiing and flexing the ski so much the boot pops out, or chattery snow where you walk out of the binding.

I feel sorry for people skiing bindings that release without feedback. That sucks.
Edited by clink83 - 2/11/15 at 7:01am
post #11 of 26

It is irresponsible for anyone on this forum to suggest a DIN setting, especially without knowing BSL. You're 50 years old. It sounds like you probably had the shop adjust your bindings initially. Are you aware that when you turn 50 the DIN value goes up one level on the chart--in other words a level III setting is dialed back to a level II setting when you turn 50. The theory being that when you turn 50 your bones magically become weaker (of course this happens gradually starting in your 20's and lasts your whole life). If you are now set at a what would be a level II setting if you were 49 you  have to go up on your settings to get the same release performance you are used to, accepting the higher risk of injury--that's up to you. For me--at 64--my level III DIN would be 7. If I were under 50 it would be 8.5. I run 8 and don't prerelease. At 6 I did.

post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

Considering he has a binding that only has lateral release and forward release I wouldn't be quick to say it released properly, but many that's just me. The two types of "prereleases" you normally get that aren't due to the binding releasing normally is skiing into ruts mogul skiing and flexing the ski so much the boot pops out, or chattery snow where you walk out of the binding.

I feel sorry for people skiing bindings that release without feedback. That sucks.

We can only speculate as to why the binding released. Drawing any definitive conclusion really isnt reasonable.
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

It is irresponsible for anyone on this forum to suggest a DIN setting, especially without knowing BSL. You're 50 years old. It sounds like you probably had the shop adjust your bindings initially. Are you aware that when you turn 50 the DIN value goes up one level on the chart--in other words a level III setting is dialed back to a level II setting when you turn 50. The theory being that when you turn 50 your bones magically become weaker (of course this happens gradually starting in your 20's and lasts your whole life). If you are now set at a what would be a level II setting if you were 49 you  have to go up on your settings to get the same release performance you are used to, accepting the higher risk of injury--that's up to you. For me--at 64--my level III DIN would be 7. If I were under 50 it would be 8.5. I run 8 and don't prerelease. At 6 I did.

oldgoat I thought you were only 49years and 180 months? ;)

 

The bone thing is something that depends on the type of physical activity that you do.  The more impact the harder and denser the bone and that continues through life.  As you age and start to lose bone, you start off at a higher level and provided the activity helps reduce loss you can be stronger than someone a lot younger and stay that way.

post #14 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

When a binding releases when it should, you don't feel much. That's the whole point. It sounds like the binding reacted as it should have, no problems at all the rest of the day, I'd hold off on changing DIN until you have a few more data points (releases) where you observe if you released from the heel or the toe. If the heel is up after a release it's a heel release, If it's down it was a toe release.

I realize that there's not enough data to make a judgement.  And I can't say what released - heel or toe…  But I don't particularly want to have any more unexpected releases like that.  At a high rate of speed I could get hurt skiing on one leg…  It was a quick mini torque while skiing powder over bumps.  There was no fall or excessive load or twisting of my legs/body - I was skiing in a nice line and next second I'm on one ski negotiating a steep pitch with powder and hidden moguls.  So I don't want to have this happen again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I don't know how short your boots are, but a 6 releases pretty easy on my 315 mm boots.

 

Still, only one data point isn't much to go on. 

 

Also agree check forward pressure adjustment, and if you increase the DIN, do it at most 1/2 at a time, and see how hard it is to convince the binding standing still with someone standing on your skis (don't be stubborn and hurt yourself doing this because you think you HAVE to be able to do it).

Yeh my boots are a 320mm shell size.  I will have the shop check the forward pressure and toe height again just to be safe.  And then after that the Din will come up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

It is irresponsible for anyone on this forum to suggest a DIN setting, especially without knowing BSL. You're 50 years old. It sounds like you probably had the shop adjust your bindings initially. Are you aware that when you turn 50 the DIN value goes up one level on the chart--in other words a level III setting is dialed back to a level II setting when you turn 50. The theory being that when you turn 50 your bones magically become weaker (of course this happens gradually starting in your 20's and lasts your whole life). If you are now set at a what would be a level II setting if you were 49 you  have to go up on your settings to get the same release performance you are used to, accepting the higher risk of injury--that's up to you. For me--at 64--my level III DIN would be 7. If I were under 50 it would be 8.5. I run 8 and don't prerelease. At 6 I did.

I remember the phases of my ski career going from a Din of 8, to a Din of 7, to a Din of now 6.  GHOST'S post about his Din 6 releasing pretty easy is very telling.  OLDGOAT'S pre-releasing at Din 6 is telling though I'm not sure his weight…  BUT either way Din 6 seems like it might be the culprit for this binding.  However I did ski all of last year on my other rig which is Marker Griffons DIn 6 without any strange releases…  

 

Am I the skier I was at Din 8 - no - but I feel like I'm the guy that I was at Din 7...

 

It's not like this has never happened to me before but not since my rigs of the early 2000's…  I would like to not have this happen again and barring any technical malfunction the Din is a high suspect...

post #15 of 26
Quote:
 

Yeh my boots are a 320mm shell size.  I will have the shop check the forward pressure and toe height again just to be safe.  And then after that the Din will come up.

 

According to a DIN chart your base setting would be 5 (level I skier under 50), 6 would be a level II skier under 50 or a level III skier over 50, so it does look like your shop made the age correction. Most likely your older skis were set when you were under 50 and were set at 7--I am just guessing of course, you can check.

post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrapeguy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
 

When a binding releases when it should, you don't feel much. That's the whole point. It sounds like the binding reacted as it should have, no problems at all the rest of the day, I'd hold off on changing DIN until you have a few more data points (releases) where you observe if you released from the heel or the toe. If the heel is up after a release it's a heel release, If it's down it was a toe release.

I realize that there's not enough data to make a judgement.  And I can't say what released - heel or toe…  But I don't particularly want to have any more unexpected releases like that.  At a high rate of speed I could get hurt skiing on one leg…  It was a quick mini torque while skiing powder over bumps.  There was no fall or excessive load or twisting of my legs/body - I was skiing in a nice line and next second I'm on one ski negotiating a steep pitch with powder and hidden moguls.  So I don't want to have this happen again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

I don't know how short your boots are, but a 6 releases pretty easy on my 315 mm boots.

 

Still, only one data point isn't much to go on. 

 

Also agree check forward pressure adjustment, and if you increase the DIN, do it at most 1/2 at a time, and see how hard it is to convince the binding standing still with someone standing on your skis (don't be stubborn and hurt yourself doing this because you think you HAVE to be able to do it).

Yeh my boots are a 320mm shell size.  I will have the shop check the forward pressure and toe height again just to be safe.  And then after that the Din will come up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

It is irresponsible for anyone on this forum to suggest a DIN setting, especially without knowing BSL. You're 50 years old. It sounds like you probably had the shop adjust your bindings initially. Are you aware that when you turn 50 the DIN value goes up one level on the chart--in other words a level III setting is dialed back to a level II setting when you turn 50. The theory being that when you turn 50 your bones magically become weaker (of course this happens gradually starting in your 20's and lasts your whole life). If you are now set at a what would be a level II setting if you were 49 you  have to go up on your settings to get the same release performance you are used to, accepting the higher risk of injury--that's up to you. For me--at 64--my level III DIN would be 7. If I were under 50 it would be 8.5. I run 8 and don't prerelease. At 6 I did.

I remember the phases of my ski career going from a Din of 8, to a Din of 7, to a Din of now 6.  GHOST'S post about his Din 6 releasing pretty easy is very telling.  OLDGOAT'S pre-releasing at Din 6 is telling though I'm not sure his weight…  BUT either way Din 6 seems like it might be the culprit for this binding.  However I did ski all of last year on my other rig which is Marker Griffons DIn 6 without any strange releases…  

 

Am I the skier I was at Din 8 - no - but I feel like I'm the guy that I was at Din 7...

 

It's not like this has never happened to me before but not since my rigs of the early 2000's…  I would like to not have this happen again and barring any technical malfunction the Din is a high suspect...

Maybe you didn't put the bindings in a critical situation.  I once skied the better part of a day before I realized I hadn't reset the bindings after turning them completely down for the summer.  Skiing that day, thankfully did not involve high speed runs through re-frozen bumpy crud.  I usually ski faster than 97 % :D of skiers and turn as hard as I can.  at my Jack Benny age, a 3+ setting works very well for me.  At my over 50 age I guess I'm a 3++.  (8.5).  I release tested my bindings twice this year with no effect on my legs; skis popped right off.  Wish I could say the same for my wrist.

post #17 of 26

Put a stiff race plate under you bindings to eliminate underfoot flex. Than your bindings will not release when your ski is compressed and rapidly release as can occur when skiing moguls. 

post #18 of 26
Thread Starter 

Well that is an interesting idea.  That's what this felt like -  "a compression under foot" release.  Hmmm - I wonder if any reasonable Din increase (like from 6-8) would have prevented it?

post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrapeguy View Post
 

Well that is an interesting idea.  That's what this felt like -  "a compression under foot" release.  Hmmm - I wonder if any reasonable Din increase (like from 6-8) would have prevented it?

 

No.   If what Taxman is talking about is actually going on, jacking up the release setting is just going to hurt you.     

Jacking up the release setting does not make the binding quicker to compensate for ski bend nor more consistent in maintaining forward pressure. 

You didn't give us enough to go on for proper differential diagnosis amongst the different syndromes spoken of here:

http://www.vermontskisafety.com/vsrfaq5.php   <- look at the flex effect, then look at the bow effect

but in none of them is raising release setting the proper way to tackle the problem.

post #20 of 26
Turning up the DIN just makes it take more force to get the bindings to release, it doesn't prevent a true prerelease. A binding with a ton of elasticity will help keep your skis on for a deep flex kind of release. I'm pretty sure a lot of bump skiers use the FKS for that reason.
post #21 of 26

Saw a kid ski into a mogul trough at Heavenly today. His ski popped off. No amount of DIN tweaking would have changed the result.

post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


We can only speculate as to why the binding released. Drawing any definitive conclusion really isnt reasonable.

:beercheer:

post #23 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxman View Post

Put a stiff race plate under you bindings to eliminate underfoot flex. Than your bindings will not release when your ski is compressed and rapidly release as can occur when skiing moguls. 

Strange Look Pivots (or equivalents) don't use limitation device to limit flex under foot. Look PX (or equivalent) upper end race bindings do, more to isolate the binding pre-load effect on the ski.
post #24 of 26

Free-Flex

post #25 of 26

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxman View Post
 

Put a stiff race plate under you bindings to eliminate underfoot flex. Than your bindings will not release when your ski is compressed and rapidly release as can occur when skiing moguls. 

Thick Lifters And Soft Skis -- But the problem could also be complicated by excessively thick lifters under the binding or a ski that is very soft under foot. If you feel you need lifters, you should consider binding models with a lifter function built-in, and if you are partial to really soft skis, your best bet may be a binding model with a band or bridge connecting toe and heel piece, designed to allow either toe or heel to float with respect to the ski. These free flexing models make flex/counter-flex much easier for the heel piece to handle.

post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxman View Post
 

Put a stiff race plate under you bindings to eliminate underfoot flex. Than your bindings will not release when your ski is compressed and rapidly release as can occur when skiing moguls. 

Thick Lifters And Soft Skis -- But the problem could also be complicated by excessively thick lifters under the binding or a ski that is very soft under foot. If you feel you need lifters, you should consider binding models with a lifter function built-in, and if you are partial to really soft skis, your best bet may be a binding model with a band or bridge connecting toe and heel piece, designed to allow either toe or heel to float with respect to the ski. These free flexing models make flex/counter-flex much easier for the heel piece to handle.




^They're talking about 2 piece lifters there, not 1-piece race plates.

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