or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › help with my son's skis - waxing issue :-(
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

help with my son's skis - waxing issue :-(

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 

Hi all, firstly I must say thankyou for all of the advice, and know-how you guys happily share with this board. I have been relgiously following this board the past 3 years and have learnt a hell of a lot!

 

Now, I have an usuaual question, that I hope someone can help me with. My 8 year old has started race training at that local club, and he is training slalom gates 3 times a week. I generally wax his skis once a week, and usually go over the edges with a diamond stone to keep things sharp. but, for some reason, even after 1 training session the wax towards the edges take on a greyish colour.

 

I waxed his skis yesterday, scraped, and then went over firstly with a horse hair, and then nylon roto brush...They looked great, then when I took the photos after training, you can see what they look like:

 

 

The snow itself was a mixture of fresh and some man-made.

 

Is it because the skis are a few years old, and might need a base grind? I used http://www.swixsport.com/Products/Wax-Tuning/Glider/Base-Prep-Universal/UR8-Red-Bio-Racing-Wax-180g. when I do my skis they never look like this - even after a weeks riding...

 

So, what can I do? Or, more importantly, what am I doing wrong?

 

ps. the scratches look worse than what they are...:-)

 

Any help is much appreciated!

post #2 of 29

it may be that the base is old and doesn't accept much wax, so whatever little gets in is quickly worn.

 

also - what conditions does he ski in? hard snow?

 

I would take some sand paper and go at the base for a while - a 220 aluminum oxide sand paper wrapped around a file guide, maybe 20 passes, to remove all oxidation.

 

then finish with a steel brush and a few passes with fibertex to remove hairs.

 

then 2 hot scrapes with warm wax

 

then 1 hot wax with cold wax. let cool and scrape off.

 

then 5-10 hot waxes with warm and medium/red wax

 

then try again. or... if you still have some wine left at that point, start again, whichever makes you happier :)

 

OR go for a base grind, if you don't feel like taking sand paper to the bases and/or don't have any wine handy.

 

cheers.

post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 

thanks for the reply!

 

I will look into both options - wine is not usually a problem :-)

post #4 of 29
In addition to the excellent info from Razie, some bases are just cheap and don't hold wax well. These are often found on kids' skis, unless they are top end junior race skis.

Also worth trying a more durable surface wax after all the prep work from Razie. Looks like a case of cold old man-made snow to me.
post #5 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

it may be that the base is old and doesn't accept much wax, so whatever little gets in is quickly worn.

 

also - what conditions does he ski in? hard snow?

 

I would take some sand paper and go at the base for a while - a 220 aluminum oxide sand paper wrapped around a file guide, maybe 20 passes, to remove all oxidation.

 

then finish with a steel brush and a few passes with fibertex to remove hairs.

 

then 2 hot scrapes with warm wax

 

then 1 hot wax with cold wax. let cool and scrape off.

 

then 5-10 hot waxes with warm and medium/red wax

 

then try again. or... if you still have some wine left at that point, start again, whichever makes you happier :)

 

OR go for a base grind, if you don't feel like taking sand paper to the bases and/or don't have any wine handy.

 

cheers.

 

 

Good info.  Can you clarify if you mean to scrap after each of the '5-10 hot waxes with warm and medium/red wax'   I usually just apply a layer of wax, scrape it off and then maybe do one more time after that.   Are you saying to do 5-10 full waxes and scrapes?

post #6 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

In addition to the excellent info from Razie, some bases are just cheap and don't hold wax well. These are often found on kids' skis, unless they are top end junior race skis.

Also worth trying a more durable surface wax after all the prep work from Razie. Looks like a case of cold old man-made snow to me.

 

the skis in questions are Atomic Race 8, from 3 years back (roughly). 

 

They are great skis, they just won't absorb any wax.

post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by focker View Post


Good info.  Can you clarify if you mean to scrap after each of the '5-10 hot waxes with warm and medium/red wax'   I usually just apply a layer of wax, scrape it off and then maybe do one more time after that.   Are you saying to do 5-10 full waxes and scrapes?
yes, after messing seriously with the base, either grinding or serious sanding, I do 5-10 full hot wax and scrape, to fill it up again...

Chers

P.s. For sanding, expect to use about 1 full sheet of sandpaper - it gets clogged quickly with base material. If you do more than say 10-20 passes, re-check the base bevel.
post #8 of 29

extruded base, no wax absorption, best to use just a spray on or rub on until he gets a ski with a sintered base

post #9 of 29
A stone grind will make a huge difference in that ski. Ex bases on kids ski don't soak up much wax, I wouldn't bother with more than one cycle every two or more days.
post #10 of 29

As has been stated, Junior skis like that don't have the best base. 

 

But I also want you to consider another option I learned when my my boys were young and racing!

 

WE DIDN'T WAX!!!!  Iknow , I know Sacrilege!!!  :D

 

Nope. Have you ever  been on a ski that is too slick and feels like it is running away from you?

 

Sharp edges.... Yep!

 

I wanted my boys to feel like they had to push for speed,  not have to figure out how to keep the ski from being too fast. ....Brakiing!

 

Of course as they got older, stronger and more technically skilled we slowly started waxing, and then it became a religion. sionce they skied all 4 events!

 

they both went on to successfully compete for many years all through a J1  (Now 18U maybe?)  

post #11 of 29


The areas under the bindings and along the edges experience the greatest physical forces that draw the wax out faster than the other base regions to give the greyish areas you see.  The solution is to preferentially make the wax in that area harder than the other regions of the ski base.  Swix CH3 is a great product for that as is the Toko product below.  See the video below:

 

 

Marc

(Doctor D of RaceWax.com)

post #12 of 29
Basically what we have here is another Bear sucked into perfectionism. Mission accomplished!
post #13 of 29

Based on photo, there's just one option... do base grind and hope it will be ok after that. At least top layer (if not further down) of base is basically destroyed. Waxing, even 100s of times, won't help it, as this base doesn't accept any wax anymore. Only option is to stone grind top layer off and hope lower down, base is still ok. Not to mention it will help getting base straight(er), and even getting rid of some scratches in base :)

post #14 of 29

How old is your son, again?

post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 

8...looks like a base grind is the best way.

post #16 of 29

Since I don't race, as long as the skis are sharp and have no waxing issues I don't touch them.  For a wax I use Hertel FC739 as an extremely good all around do anything wax long life all temperature wax.

 

If you are not waxing to conditions (or more specifically race conditions) this is like the best all round wax there is.  For more specific conditions there are definitely better waxes (and wax combinations) out there.

 

So for what you are doing wax it and forget it for the week, Hertel.  For anything else I'll gladly bow down to the more knowledged practicing waxers out there. 

 

Little side note, since you are waxing a little less often, ease up a bit on the brushing to leave a shade more wax on the ski.  While giving a bit of a slower finish to start, it does extend the life of the wax on the ski.  Long intervals require a few compromises.  Waxing every day, well, brush away for the best finish and fasted ski.

post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

Since I don't race, as long as the skis are sharp and have no waxing issues I don't touch them.  For a wax I use Hertel FC739 as an extremely good all around do anything wax long life all temperature wax.

 

If you are not waxing to conditions (or more specifically race conditions) this is like the best all round wax there is.  For more specific conditions there are definitely better waxes (and wax combinations) out there.

 

So for what you are doing wax it and forget it for the week, Hertel.  For anything else I'll gladly bow down to the more knowledged practicing waxers out there. 

 

Little side note, since you are waxing a little less often, ease up a bit on the brushing to leave a shade more wax on the ski.  While giving a bit of a slower finish to start, it does extend the life of the wax on the ski.  Long intervals require a few compromises.  Waxing every day, well, brush away for the best finish and fasted ski.

To add to that, the Hertel waxes have some chemicals that basically repel water so they have less of a need to brush out well - in fact the manufacturer says to scrape and polish, no brushing, which worked very well in my experience. Now, for racing you will want to brush them, but not for training - it is a good all temperature wax system, definitely easier to use than others (Nanox).

 

cheers

post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 

Hertel basically doesn't exist in Europe...but it sounds like a good product. Only possible to get SWIX, and TOKO here here in Scandi land...and attractive women - so it evens out :-)

post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilledonmarco View Post
 

Hertel basically doesn't exist in Europe...but it sounds like a good product. Only possible to get SWIX, and TOKO here here in Scandi land...and attractive women - so it evens out :-)

then use Toko's Low Fluoro All temperature shop wax - I can find it in bulk in North America, maybe you can find a box somewhere

 

this stuff:

 

http://www.artechski.com/toko-universal-wax-white-all-temp-250-grams/

 

the black has moly, the white is plain HC and the pink is LF. they all work well in most conditions.

 

cheers

 

p.s. also Doctor D here makes some good two temperature wax, maybe he'll give you a good deal on shipping: http://racewax.com 

post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilledonmarco View Post
 

Hertel basically doesn't exist in Europe...but it sounds like a good product. Only possible to get SWIX, and TOKO here here in Scandi land...and attractive women - so it evens out :-)


Hertel ships.  They sell direct and for the price can't be beat.

post #21 of 29

The kid is 8

 

Wax doesn't matter. 

 

And the skis are going to have a very finite useful life anyway. 

post #22 of 29

Waxman has it right! The Atomic Race 8 is not a Junior race ski. It is merely a junior ski with a foam core and an extruded base, not a sintered base. Only sintered bases will absorb wax. The best you can do is keep the edges sharp and if you feel that you must wax, use a "wipe on" product. I wish you the best of luck with the edges. My youngest son had the same skis until he graduated to junior race skis and those had the softest steel edges I ever saw.

 

Karl

post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 

thanks for all of the replies...

 

So, I take it from the last responses that I shouldn't bother with a grind?

post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilledonmarco View Post
 

thanks for all of the replies...

 

So, I take it from the last responses that I shouldn't bother with a grind?

I would get 'em ground and make sure the edges have proper angles 

 

a 1 base edge &  2 side edge would work fine

post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilledonmarco View Post
 

Hi all, firstly I must say thankyou for all of the advice, and know-how you guys happily share with this board. I have been relgiously following this board the past 3 years and have learnt a hell of a lot!

 

Now, I have an usuaual question, that I hope someone can help me with. My 8 year old has started race training at that local club, and he is training slalom gates 3 times a week. I generally wax his skis once a week, and usually go over the edges with a diamond stone to keep things sharp. but, for some reason, even after 1 training session the wax towards the edges take on a greyish colour.

 

I waxed his skis yesterday, scraped, and then went over firstly with a horse hair, and then nylon roto brush...They looked great, then when I took the photos after training, you can see what they look like:

 

 

The snow itself was a mixture of fresh and some man-made.

 

Is it because the skis are a few years old, and might need a base grind? I used http://www.swixsport.com/Products/Wax-Tuning/Glider/Base-Prep-Universal/UR8-Red-Bio-Racing-Wax-180g. when I do my skis they never look like this - even after a weeks riding...

 

So, what can I do? Or, more importantly, what am I doing wrong?

 

ps. the scratches look worse than what they are...:-)

 

Any help is much appreciated!

Did you try to change the wax brand, what works on your skis might not work of your son's. During racing they work the middle of the ski pretty hard and the base of the junior skis might not absorb enough to last.

post #26 of 29

I forgot to ask. Is it cold or hot wax?

 

If it was cold wax, maybe you could try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hepZcZT_ic

post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

I would get 'em ground and make sure the edges have proper angles 

 

a 1 base edge &  2 side edge would work fine

X2!!!  

 

Get em ground flat and have the bevels set at 1/2.  That way you and your son have a good stable foundation to build off of.  Right now, you have no idea what's going on with those things and for all you know the bases and bevels could be all over the map and if they are, it'll make them squirrely and unpredictable as hell.  Like A-man suggested, get a good base grind on them, bevels reset to 1/2 and your son will likely come back and tell you they feel completely different and are easier to ski.  Confidence, is everything and consistent, predictable skis, builds confidence.

post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 

X2!!!  

 

Get em ground flat and have the bevels set at 1/2.  That way you and your son have a good stable foundation to build off of.  Right now, you have no idea what's going on with those things and for all you know the bases and bevels could be all over the map and if they are, it'll make them squirrely and unpredictable as hell.  Like A-man suggested, get a good base grind on them, bevels reset to 1/2 and your son will likely come back and tell you they feel completely different and are easier to ski.  Confidence, is everything and consistent, predictable skis, builds confidence.

Thumbs Up:beercheer:

post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

I would get 'em ground and make sure the edges have proper angles 

 

a 1 base edge &  2 side edge would work fine

yes. either sand them yourself or grind them. after grinding, you will have to reset the base bevel to 1

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › help with my son's skis - waxing issue :-(