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post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

Looking for some advice please.  Don't hold back!

 

Black slope at a local hill.

 

Thanks!

 

 

post #2 of 27

Thanks for sharing, DV. Your issues are both conceptual and mechnical and are all inter-related. 

 

I approach skiing analysis from a three pronged approach [simplified]:

 

1) Turn shape

2) Continuous active inside ski

3) Lateral body position (in lower levels), tracking and travel of the Center of Mass (CoM) in more advanced levels. 

 

Were I your instructor on the slope, I would try to illustrate a better turn shape and try to help you understand the importance of turn shape for both speed control and how it aids proper mechanics.  This would provide the "what". The mechnics then become the "how". But it is important to realize that each item is interlinked with each other. 

 

One of the first things I would address is how  to best utilize your inside ski to best help guide the turn shape. Your inside ski is largely inactive.  The active inside ski would provide an alternative many aspects of your skiing and harvest enough power to guide your skis without the shoulder rotation. In conjunction I would also try to show you how your body position unlocks your feet, so they can function properly. These two elements work together. Proper lateral body position is essential to allowing your feet to do the work with minimal effort or body movement. It is critical to everything in ski mechanics.  Getting all these three things addressed will help you create a better turn shape and an alternative to braking/skidding for speed control... but a real foundation for significant improvement in your skiing. 

 

I think you need to find someone to help you on the slope who can help you modify your approach and create a new, healthy set of movement patterns with a solid concept of the ski turn. 

 

Good luck. 

post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

Your inside ski is largely inactive

Thanks for the comments and spending some time looking at that video.  I'm on a quest to get better, so any suggestions are appreciated.

 

So, here is the first question.  How can you see that my inside ski is inactive in that video?  How do I activate my inside ski?  Knee in the direction of the turn?  LTE?

 

Thanks.

post #4 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

Thanks for the comments and spending some time looking at that video.  I'm on a quest to get better, so any suggestions are appreciated.

 

So, here is the first question.  How can you see that my inside ski is inactive in that video?  How do I activate my inside ski?  Knee in the direction of the turn?  LTE?

 

Thanks.

>>>> How can you see that my inside ski is inactive in that video? >>>

You mean besides 36 years of experience :D ?   Just watch your video again. If you look closely the inside ski doesn't engage the snow until you've mad 3/4 of your turn.  You're making an up-unweighted move, throwing your skis across the fall line, weighting the outside and then waiting for the inside to do something. [In my cold medicine induced stupor I missed that you were doing up-unweighted release/turns... another issue]. The second clue is rotation of your shoulders to get the skis to turn. If you were focused properly on the inside ski your upper body rotation would be much less because of the opposing nature of the inside ski actively turning in the direction of the turn. 

 

While I have a moment, let me dispell a myth that is overlooked in ski instruction: Ski ACTIVITY and PRESSURE are independent of each other.  A lot of folks think that the pressured ski the active ski.  It ain't necessarily so. I'll prove it to you...

 

Standing statically on flat terrain (or in your living room), lift your right ski off the ground. Notice you have to balance on the left. Ok.  Tip the right ski (while in the air) to the LTE; and even try to turn it to the right at the same time.  As you are doing that, is the right foot/ski active?  Of course it is.  Now focusing on the left ski, the one you're balancing on... Is it the pressured ski?  Of course.  Is it active? No, it is not. 

 

...Now some wise guy will say "well you're not skiing, but other wise it would be active". Really?  So lets do the same exercise standing on a slope.  Lift the uphill ski and begin moving across the hill in a shallow traverse. Now tip the LTE of the lifted ski into the hill as you move forward. What happens?  As you balance on the lower ski, the ski arcs.  Was that lower (presumed outside) ski active or passive in this exercise?  All you did was stand on it and do nothing besides move forward, yet it arced.  It was not active, only pressured.  

 

What was required to do that exercise was to shift your CoM to a point enough toward your downhill ski to balance on the lower ski with the uphill ski raised in the air. The ACTIVITY of tipping of the LTE of the raised ski creates a force at the hip which transfers across your pelvis causing the lower ski to tip somewhat as well!  So even though the uphill ski isn't even touching the snow, you can still engage its activity. Now, that inside ski in the snow it is even more powerful as the snow provides resistance and additional force you can harness and use productively.  But it is important that you understand how by moving your CoM into the right place you could make everything function with virtually no effort. 

 

So much more, but I'll stop here for now.  Hope I laid it out in a coherent manner. The cough medicine isn't helping :eek 

post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

If you look closely the inside ski doesn't engage the snow until you've mad 3/4 of your turn.

 

I didn't see it on every turn, but yes I see it now.

 

So, my inside ski must engage at the start of the turn -and- be more engaged for the entirety of the turn?  That is done by initiating with the LTE -and- pulling the inside foot back (in my case)???

post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

Looking for some advice please.  Don't hold back!

 

Black slope at a local hill.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Here's something to ponder....  where is your balance... laterally ??? :)

post #7 of 27

and while you're pondering where it is.... think about this... where should it be ??? :)

post #8 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouD-Reno View Post
 

Here's something to ponder....  where is your balance... laterally ??? :)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouD-Reno View Post
 

and while you're pondering where it is.... think about this... where should it be ??? :)

 

Too much of my weight is on the inside ski at initiation until the outside takes hold?  I should have more weight on my outside at initiation with the LTE of the inside ski taking the lead?

post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

 

 

 

Too much of my weight is on the inside ski at initiation until the outside takes hold?  I should have more weight on my outside at initiation with the LTE of the inside ski taking the lead?

ok... you're on the right track....   bu I want to hear you say it... where is your balance, laterally, supposed ti be ???

post #10 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

I didn't see it on every turn, but yes I see it now.

 

So, my inside ski must engage at the start of the turn -and- be more engaged for the entirety of the turn?  That is done by initiating with the LTE -and- pulling the inside foot back (in my case)???

Everything is interconnected. 

 

Your lateral body position has to be in its proper place (as Lou-D alludes to) to unlock your feet.  The "correct" position of your CoM (body position) needs to  continually adjust and a "balance into the future" (I hate phrase, but it is accurate enough).  The longer your CoM tracks within the turn the longer the window of opportunity is to adjust with your feet.  So, Lou is correct in pointing that out as it is a precursor to active feet. 

 

Then (to answer your question) the old outside ski must release the edge and begin to tip toward the new edge as it becomes the new inside ski. Again, you will not be able to release the old outside ski until your CoM is in position.  The better skier's CoM's "track" and stay in position and transition continuously from turn to turn.  But it is important to understand that all the activity should originate from the feet...

 

...Now what you do is rotate from the shoulders, swing your skis around and weight the outside ski, where the inside gets some pressure much later in the turn. Your turn shape  is relatively non-existent and not there is no deliberate shaping that I can see.

 

But, if you begin to make the turn with the inside ski, the outside ski will follow almost automatically, unless you do something to keep it from doing so. The CoM MUST be in find the correct position, which is largely directed by interia... BUT actively trying to work the inside ski can help you direct the CoM toward and across the skis in the appropriate time frame.  So it is a two way street, of sorts.

 

The CHANGE OF DIRECTION of your skis (turn shape... what a concept), when done properly sets you up so your momentum is going one way and your skis are trying to go back the other way.  When this happens, PRESSURE COMES TO YOU!  At that point it is up to you to feel where you have enough pressure to balance on the outside ski WITHOUT SHIFTING YOUR CENTER OF MASS OUT OF POSITION.  The distribution of pressure between outside ski and inside ski is a matter of flexing the inside (to direct more distribution to the outside) and/or extending the outside. Since we try to stay balanced and mostly "stacked" (and other reasons) there is less ability to extend more, but our ability to retract the inside leg is substantially greater. So consequently, we control the balance or distribution more with retraction of the inside and let momentum and centripetal force keep us on our BoS, which mostly gets directed to the outside ski.   So, while a lot of folks preach "getting to the outside ski early", it is crucial to understand that you should optimally let the pressure transfer to the outside ski when there are enough forces come to you to allow you to balance on it.  If you try to pressure the outside too early, the only way to compensate is to adjust your CoM to accomodate the premature pressure transfer and make the CoM travel in the wrong direction in "correction mode".  Hence you create a series of "linked recoveries" rather than linked turns with a properly transitioning CoM. The problem comes in because you CAN ski the wrong way, but this movement pattern will become habit and you WILL reach a plateau until all is corrected. 

 

I hope you can begin to see how extremely important the inside ski is to outside ski function and how it affects turn shape, travel of center of mass as well as pressure distribution. In other words, the inside ski contributes to all aspects of your ski mechanics. 

 

And so...  Still under the influence of NyQuil... so I hope what I wrote was good.  :snowfall I'll probably edit it later.  No... I'm SURE i will. :duck: 


Edited by vindibona1 - 2/9/15 at 6:45pm
post #11 of 27
Ok... This is what I'm alluding to... you need to balance on your outside ski... and stay balanced on your outside ski until it's time to balance on your new outside ski... this is fundamental #1 in my book... and guess what I'm seeing... you are balancing on your inside ski... Your balance is going from inside ski to inside ski.... not outside to outside.... simple as that... fundamental #1... wink.gif
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouD-Reno View Post

Ok... This is what I'm alluding to... you need to balance on your outside ski... and stay balanced on your outside ski until it's time to balance on your new outside ski... this is fundamental #1 in my book... and guess what I'm seeing... you are balancing on your inside ski... Your balance is going from inside ski to inside ski.... not outside to outside.... simple as that... fundamental #1... wink.gif

 

I'm sorry Lou, but I don't embrace this approach the approach of "inside ski uber alles".  Getting to an early outside ski is find ONLY if the center of mass travels correctly within each turn. Consequently WHEN one transfers pressure to the outside ski is less important then just about every other aspect of mechanics, because the pressure, when the turn is done properly,  comes to the skier in due time.  So many other factors to consider to allow an early pressuring of the outside ski. 

 

So, if we stipulate that the CoM is traveling and tracking in the proper direction with the proper timing, then your approach would be perfectly acceptable.  But what about a Whitepass turn. where pressure is transferred to the outside ski much later in the turn's development?  Phil and Steve have proven the Whitepass turn to be a perfectly valid turn. Obviously not optimal in most situations, but valid nonetheless.  But if you consider these validity of both extremes of super early or super late transfer of pressure to the outside ski, then one can only conclude that one could ski perfectly well without immediate pressure transfer to the outside ski providing the other conditions mentioned exist.   Now, that doesn't mean that conditions don't exist that allow instantaneous pressuring of the outside ski upon release of the old turn (or earlier), but there are many variables that contributed to the timing of pressure distribution. 

 

As another example to illustrate my point... If we're skiing heavy powder, are we not indeed going to have some pressure on the inside ski? If that is the case, will not pressure being transferred to the outside be more gradual than "jump on it and go"? And even in harder conditions are there not turns when the inside ski engages in the new turn ahead of the outside? 

 

IMO the only things that matter as to when the pressure is transferred to the outside ski are the tracking of the center of mass in relation to the shape of the arc and the speed of travel, which would create adequate force within the arc to stand against . Then it becomes a balancing act with multidimensional forces.  All of this seems to contradict teaching immediate pressuring of the outside ski as rule #1.  Pressuring the outside ski too early doesn't address activating the inside ski, and in fact may inhibit it's function if done improperly. Nor does it address PROPER travel of the center of mass which IMO is much higher up on the priority chain. 

 

Respectfully submitted. 

post #13 of 27

Here's what I see:

The upper body stays mostly square to the skis. The legs have very little flex and extension movement. The snow spray does not occur until after the skis have passed through the fall line (if 12 o'clock is the point of a turn when you're going most across the hill and 3:00 o'clock and 9:00 o'clock is when you are going to straight down the hill, then the snow spray does not start until 8:45 or 3:15). You have a tiny wedge at the start of your turns. Your shoulders tip into the new turn. Your turns have great rhythm and speed control.

 

Here's what I want to see:

Legs turning underneath the upper body as the skis turn out of the fall line. The outside leg noticeably longer than the inside leg when the skis are in the fall line. Snow spray coming off the skis before they enter the fall line (e.g. downhill edges engaged in the top 1/2 of the turn). Simultaneous edge change (i.e. no wedge). Shoulders staying more parallel to the snow surface at all points in the turn. More bending of the skis earlier in the turn. More speed control through turn shape and less speed control through skidding, (still) Great rhythm and speed control.

 

Here's how to do it:

Start your turns with more tipping of the skis and less turning of the skis. Finish your turns more across the hill by letting your legs turn more than the upper body. Initiate the new turn with the hips coming across the skis at the same time as your shoulders by bending the new inside ski as you are tipping it into the new turn.

 

Drills you can do:

Carved traverses

and

Schrittbogen

post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

I'm sorry Lou, but I don't embrace this approach the approach of "inside ski uber alles".  Getting to an early outside ski is find ONLY if the center of mass travels correctly within each turn. Consequently WHEN one transfers pressure to the outside ski is less important then just about every other aspect of mechanics, because the pressure, when the turn is done properly,  comes to the skier in due time.  So many other factors to consider to allow an early pressuring of the outside ski. 

So, if we stipulate that the CoM is traveling and tracking in the proper direction with the proper timing, then your approach would be perfectly acceptable.  But what about a Whitepass turn. where pressure is transferred to the outside ski much later in the turn's development?  Phil and Steve have proven the Whitepass turn to be a perfectly valid turn. Obviously not optimal in most situations, but valid nonetheless.  But if you consider these validity of both extremes of super early or super late transfer of pressure to the outside ski, then one can only conclude that one could ski perfectly well without immediate pressure transfer to the outside ski providing the other conditions mentioned exist.   Now, that doesn't mean that conditions don't exist that allow instantaneous pressuring of the outside ski upon release of the old turn (or earlier), but there are many variables that contributed to the timing of pressure distribution. 

As another example to illustrate my point... If we're skiing heavy powder, are we not indeed going to have some pressure on the inside ski? If that is the case, will not pressure being transferred to the outside be more gradual than "jump on it and go"? And even in harder conditions are there not turns when the inside ski engages in the new turn ahead of the outside? 

IMO the only things that matter as to when the pressure is transferred to the outside ski are the tracking of the center of mass in relation to the shape of the arc and the speed of travel, which would create adequate force within the arc to stand against . Then it becomes a balancing act with multidimensional forces.  All of this seems to contradict teaching immediate pressuring of the outside ski as rule #1.  Pressuring the outside ski too early doesn't address activating the inside ski, and in fact may inhibit it's function if done improperly. Nor does it address PROPER travel of the center of mass which IMO is much higher up on the priority chain. 

Respectfully submitted. 

Respectfully... balance on the outside ski is fundamental in my book... balancing on the inside ski, while quite common, is something that needs to be addressed... and that is what I am seeing... again, respectfully, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one...
post #15 of 27
I think your both right. Lou is the starting point and Vin is the finishing product.
post #16 of 27
Quote:

Drills you can do:

Carved traverses

and

Schrittbogen

Would you please elaborate on

Quote:
Schrittbogen

Maybe give us term that we might hear in 2015 from an average ski school instructor.

Thanks, Mc El

post #17 of 27

There is no commonly agreed on term for this drill used by the average ski instructor. The average ski instructor does not have this drill in their bag of tricks. There is a ghostly term invented by a person who is very good at inventing new names for things but shall not be mentioned here because that person wore out their welcome. "Anyone" can find more information about this drill in a common book about being "an expert skier". The literal translation is "step sheet" drill. The picture speaks all you really need to know. Lift the tail of the new inside ski and tip into the direction of the new turn.

post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

 

 the old outside ski must release the edge and begin to tip toward the new edge as it becomes the new inside ski. Again, you will not be able to release the old outside ski until your CoM is in position.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

Lift the tail of the new inside ski and tip into the direction of the new turn.

 

@TheRusty  Will this drill get me to the point that @vindibona1 mentions above?  

post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouD-Reno View Post


Respectfully... balance on the outside ski is fundamental in my book... balancing on the inside ski, while quite common, is something that needs to be addressed... and that is what I am seeing... again, respectfully, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one...

Perhaps I wrote too much, but somehow you missed the paragraph where I  illustrated that pressure and activity are independent (but not mutually exclusive). 

 

You see, Lou, the CoM travels where inertia takes it until turn shape redirects it or you redirect it. And the feet use contact with the snow to do that most effectively. And so if the pressure is on the outside ski at the end of the turn, as soon as that turn is complete, which foot will have the best chance of helping to redirect the CoM? The new inside ski, obviously.And why is CoM position so important? It is because when it is out of position you lose either foot function or pressure, or both. 

 

 If you're trying to pressure the inside ski too early the chances of redirecting the CoM in the wrong direction are great. And in doing that you handicap the feet and legs to do their job in the proper sequence. That's where the inside ski becomes important. It helps to keep the CoM moving in the right direction, allowing for pressure transfer to the outside ski AT WILL, when the forces are great enough to keep a BoS with pressure (mostly) on the outside ski while the CoM continues tracking properly. 

 

Though naturally pressure will want to go to the outside ski and we should ALLOW that to happen. Again, going to the outside ski prematurely, which is what so many intermediate skiers do, can have negative effects on the entire movement sequence.  And IMO one of the keys to smooth, efficient skiing is to ALLOW the skis and the forces to do their job.  It has been my observation over the last couple decades that so much focus has been on the outside ski while the function of the inside ski is ignored, while so important to keeping everything else together. 

 

If you want, think of it this way- The inside ski is the glue that keeps the CoM and outside ski interconnected. 

post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

@TheRusty  Will this drill get me to the point that @vindibona1 mentions above?  


There's nothing PSIA-verboten about lifting the tail of the new inside ski and tipping it to its little toe edge to start a new turn.  

This lifting and tipping move produces "flamingo turns"  ...aka... "stork turns"  ...aka...  "tracer turns."  All pretty much the same.  It's a great drill.

You might find these drill names to be more familiar to instructors.

 

You can also slide the new inside foot back an inch or so while doing this, as long as you don't pull back the hip and torso above it.  ​

Not moving that hip back along with the foot is an issue for some people not yet good at separation.  It's a great thing to do if you can do it right.

 

Lifting and tipping is related to "thumpers."  Thumpers is lifting the tail and thumping it down on the snow to make sure the skier is not aft.  

Thumpers between turns for beginners helps them get parallel and out of the wedge, at least between turns.  But it involves a traverse, if you're ok with that.  

Thumpers all the way through turns helps them stay parallel.  But thumpers is not an initiation drill.  Lifting and tipping is.

 

Lifting the tail of the new inside ski and tipping it adds power to any initiation.  It keeps the skier out of the back seat, and places all the "weight" on the new outside ski immediately.

It serves as a release, since the new inside ski is the old outside ski, and since lifting the tail involves releasing the ski's hold on the snow.

This can produce really short radius steered turns if you also steer the new outside ski in the direction of the new turn along with the lifting and tipping.  

And even more power comes with pointing the knee of the lifted leg in the direction of the new turn.  

 

These variations are great things to play around with.  Some will work with clients while others will go right over their heads.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 2/10/15 at 7:06am
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtViking View Post
 

 

 

 

@TheRusty  Will this drill get me to the point that @vindibona1 mentions above?  

It is one way to get started.  A lot of folks do it that way.   When I tip my new inside ski it usually remains on the snow. I use the snow contact to help control how everything is directed. Because I am shaping my turns, the forces in play lighten the inside as the outside develops pressure in due time.  Sometimes, depending on the turn, the transition of pressure happens very quickly, sometimes more slowly and gradually. The transitions are extremely smooth and seamless. Again, what Rusty suggests is a way to begin retraining.  But be aware of where your body moves. If you feel your CoM moving back uphill in the slightest, you are going to the outside ski too early. 

 

Edit: One thing that I don't want misconstrued is that I'm not advocating having NO pressure on the outside ski at initiation. Also, the shape of your turn at the top of turn has a huge influence on the pressure and how the BoS develops. 

 

If you want some models to watch, pull up some YouTube videos of J.F. Beaulieu and Paul Lorenz. 

post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post


If you want some models to watch, pull up some YouTube videos of J.F. Beaulieu and Paul Lorenz. 

http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/#!inside-ski-or-outside-ski/c1kau
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

Perhaps I wrote too much, but somehow you missed the paragraph where I  illustrated that pressure and activity are independent (but not mutually exclusive). 

You see, Lou, the CoM travels where inertia takes it until turn shape redirects it or you redirect it. And the feet use contact with the snow to do that most effectively. And so if the pressure is on the outside ski at the end of the turn, as soon as that turn is complete, which foot will have the best chance of helping to redirect the CoM? The new inside ski, obviously.And why is CoM position so important? It is because when it is out of position you lose either foot function or pressure, or both. 

 If you're trying to pressure the inside ski too early the chances of redirecting the CoM in the wrong direction are great. And in doing that you handicap the feet and legs to do their job in the proper sequence. That's where the inside ski becomes important. It helps to keep the CoM moving in the right direction, allowing for pressure transfer to the outside ski AT WILL, when the forces are great enough to keep a BoS with pressure (mostly) on the outside ski while the CoM continues tracking properly. 

Though naturally pressure will want to go to the outside ski and we should ALLOW that to happen. Again, going to the outside ski prematurely, which is what so many intermediate skiers do, can have negative effects on the entire movement sequence.  And IMO one of the keys to smooth, efficient skiing is to ALLOW the skis and the forces to do their job.  It has been my observation over the last couple decades that so much focus has been on the outside ski while the function of the inside ski is ignored, while so important to keeping everything else together. 

If you want, think of it this way- The inside ski is the glue that keeps the CoM and outside ski interconnected. 

Respectfully, somehow you missed where I wrote about pressure... oh... wait... I wasn't writing about pressure... I was writing about balance... wink.gif
http://www.section8ski.com/2010/09/skiing-101%E2%80%93lateral-balance-edging/
post #24 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

It is one way to get started.  A lot of folks do it that way.   When I tip my new inside ski it usually remains on the snow. I use the snow contact to help control how everything is directed. Because I am shaping my turns, the forces in play lighten the inside as the outside develops pressure in due time.  Sometimes, depending on the turn, the transition of pressure happens very quickly, sometimes more slowly and gradually. The transitions are extremely smooth and seamless. Again, what Rusty suggests is a way to begin retraining.  But be aware of where your body moves. If you feel your CoM moving back uphill in the slightest, you are going to the outside ski too early. 

 

Edit: One thing that I don't want misconstrued is that I'm not advocating having NO pressure on the outside ski at initiation. Also, the shape of your turn at the top of turn has a huge influence on the pressure and how the BoS develops. 

 

If you want some models to watch, pull up some YouTube videos of J.F. Beaulieu and Paul Lorenz. 

 

Very good.  I'll try both of the inside ski drills

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouD-Reno View Post


Respectfully, somehow you missed where I wrote about pressure... oh... wait... I wasn't writing about pressure... I was writing about balance... wink.gif
http://www.section8ski.com/2010/09/skiing-101%E2%80%93lateral-balance-edging/

 

Thanks for posting those.  Very helpful!

post #25 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 


There's nothing PSIA-verboten about lifting the tail of the new inside ski and tipping it to its little toe edge to start a new turn.  

This lifting and tipping move produces "flamingo turns"  ...aka... "stork turns"  ...aka...  "tracer turns."  All pretty much the same.  It's a great drill.

You might find these drill names to be more familiar to instructors.

 

You can also slide the new inside foot back an inch or so while doing this, as long as you don't pull back the hip and torso above it.  ​

Not moving that hip back along with the foot is an issue for some people not yet good at separation.  It's a great thing to do if you can do it right.

 

Lifting and tipping is related to "thumpers."  Thumpers is lifting the tail and thumping it down on the snow to make sure the skier is not aft.  

Thumpers between turns for beginners helps them get parallel and out of the wedge, at least between turns.  But it involves a traverse, if you're ok with that.  

Thumpers all the way through turns helps them stay parallel.  But thumpers is not an initiation drill.  Lifting and tipping is.

 

Lifting the tail of the new inside ski and tipping it adds power to any initiation.  It keeps the skier out of the back seat, and places all the "weight" on the new outside ski immediately.

It serves as a release, since the new inside ski is the old outside ski, and since lifting the tail involves releasing the ski's hold on the snow.

This can produce really short radius steered turns if you also steer the new outside ski in the direction of the new turn along with the lifting and tipping.  

And even more power comes with pointing the knee of the lifted leg in the direction of the new turn.  

 

These variations are great things to play around with.  Some will work with clients while others will go right over their heads.

 

I'm going to try and work on it this week.  I'll post another video after I think I've moved in the right direction.  Maybe you and the others can chime in again.  I really do appreciate all the comments.  It's been helpful.

 

Looking forward to the challenge!  Love having homework as well.

 

Cheers.

post #26 of 27

An excellent article. Thanks for posting. Paul does a great job of differentiating many things.  I think the one term that gets misrepresented is "balance".  I think a better term is needed so it isn't confused with all out pressuring.  I like "align" better. 

 

Quote:
 Paul Lorenz: "Transition: through the transition there is not a great deal of centripetal force and weighting a particular ski will depend on the type of transition the skier is performing. A crossover will demand pressing on the uphill or new outside ski. A crossunder will require more evenly weighted skis or pressure on the downhill or new inside ski."

While this is true, it is important to recognize that the inside ski must remain active, even though the pressure transfers early to the outside ski.  The problem that plagues most intermediate skiers is that their perception of the crossover is that it is led by the body, when in fact it is still led by the feet.  Lifting and tipping, as suggested by Rusty is in fact a great way to learn this technique as it does in fact activate the inside ski. IMO the downside of this is that by removing all of the pressure of the inside ski at initiation you negate the assistance that the resistance of the ski/snow contact provides.  Additionally, I maintain that one should strive to "place" the pressure on the outside ski by retracting the inside on a smooth, continuous rate as it keeps some range of motion in reserve until it is no longer needed. 

 

Quote:
 PL: "Initiation: Through this section of the turn, the skier’s primary goal is to move inside the turn to gain edge angle. The centripetal force is beginning to build up but can still be managed by the skier’s movements. It is this part of the turn that inside/outside ski pressure is situational."

What I've been saying.  It is situational and simply "going to the outside ski" is not a given. It is a choice BASED ON THE SITUATION AND THE DEVELOPING FORCES. It is centripetal force and inertia that dictates when pressure transfer is appropriate. 

 

 

Quote:
PL continued:  "Middle (of the turn): ...the point in the turn where the centripetal pressure is great. It is this part of the turn (regardless of inside/outside ski weight during the initiation) where the skier must align their COM over the outside ski as mentioned above to deal with this force.

Yes, and at this point in the turn with proper body alignment the inside ski will lighten naturally while the outside ski, due to the alignment is pressured naturally. And if centripetal force is a key component, what contributes to to how centripetal force develops?  Inertia, and direction change (turn shape).  And the alignment, position and travel of CoM is the key. Transfer of pressure to the outside ski and to some extent body alignment depends a lot less on what you do with your outside ski and much more with what you do (or don't do) with the inside to allow everything else to function naturally.  

post #27 of 27

Initiation, Initiation, Initiation.

Like the three rules of real estate valuation (location, location, location), initiation is the primary rule you are violating. To start each turn in the 11 turns in the video you twisted your upper body in the direction you wanted to go, 11 times. That twist went down to your feet and turned your skis. With this method of turn initiation you will be an intermediate forever, and you will tire more quickly than you would if you were using a more efficient method of starting your turns.

 

In as little as a one hour lesson you can learn the beginning stages of what to do. Tell the instructor you want to learn to initiate your turns by slightly extending your inside leg (soon-to-be new outside leg) to move your upper body (shoulders, torso and hips) laterally and forward over your skis downhill in the direction of the new turn. Often called a “crossover” initiation, or an Inside Leg Extension (ILE), read the threads on Epic and elsewhere on this kind of initiation and transition. Extending the legs into the new turn will “tip” you and your skis into the new turn, as the others have explained. The “tipping” will cause your edges to “release” from the old turn, as others have explained.              Print this out and give it to the instructor you hire.

 

You will notice that moving your body over your skis to the other side is scary and unnerving because for a brief moment you will be out of balance and your skis will momentarily not be under you, but you must take it on Faith that your skis will curve around to “catch” you, and you will be in balance again. You will likely notice that you will be balanced more on the new outside ski, like Lou is suggesting, and your turn shape will vastly improve, as Vindi is explaining. And like TheRusty said, [[with my edits]]:

 

Here's what I want to see: Legs turning underneath the upper body...the outside leg noticeably longer than the inside leg… Simultaneous edge change (i.e. no wedge)… More speed control through turn shape and less speed control through skidding… 

 

Here's how to do it: Start your turns with more tipping of the skis and less turning of the skis. [[Cause the tipping by extending the inside leg]]       Finish your turns more across the hill [[more of a full “C” shaped turn]]  by letting your legs turn more than the upper body. [[this is “counter” and “separation”]]              Initiate the new turn with the hips coming across the skis at the same time as your shoulders... [[this is the scary “crossover”]]

 

Take a lesson on initiation! If your initiation is good, the rest of your turn will be good. Then work on “counter”, that is, “separating” the upper and lower body as you initiate and move through a turn. But, your first priority is replacing your present method of initiation which is based on rotation of your upper body. Replace it with an extension-based movement of your lower body (legs and feet). Look at it this way: Which body part turns first? Your feet or your shoulders?  In your video, your upper body moves into a turn first, and your feet follow. Replace that with the reverse sequence of first moving your feet and legs into the new turn, and your body will follow.

 

Please excuse the poor quality of this hurriedly written post, but I wanted to get it out to you before the weekend; anyone with DIRT in their name deserves special consideration.

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