or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Lange RS 120 SC's: Can I restore the original fit?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Lange RS 120 SC's: Can I restore the original fit?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Short version:
I'd like to run some ideas past you guys before I go back to my bootfitter(s)* for the fourth time for work on my much-beloved 2.5-season-old Lange RS 120 SCs, mondo 24.5. They used to have a wonderfully snug performance fit, but over the past 40 or so ski days they've gotten pretty roomy. Recent tweaks and added padding have helped but don't come near to restoring the original fit.

More info:
As measured against a wall to the best of my ability, my right foot is 243mm long, and my left is 245mm long (but I'm suspicious because my right foot always fits tighter in shoes & boots confused.gif). Width seemed harder to measure for some reason, but I think they're both 94mm wide (widest part of the forefoot at the metatarsal heads). I can post pics if you'd like. The boot has a 97mm last, is stamped 24.5 on the outside, and the inside of the shell's tongue says 240-255mm. I'm not going to do a shell fit because these liners were very hard to pull and a real pisser to get back in by myself before the recent padding was added, and even the bootfitters ask for help when putting them in. If it helps, the bootfitter recently told me that there's so little extra room that I wouldn't get more than five degrees of warmth out of an after-market liner (so I ended up buying boot heaters).

Oddball factor: Last January I started to resolve some health issues which caused edema in my lower legs (and elsewhere, but you don't care about that). I lost 15-20 pounds between February and November (I'm 5'3" and went from 165-170 to 150), and there's less edema in my legs. At the bootfitter's advice I've always worn compression socks with these boots from the moment I get out of bed on a ski day (I change into thin Smartwools for skiing because they're more comfortable).

Timeline:
I had to wear nylons for the first several days in the boots, after which there was enough space for an ultra-light wool blend sock. Things stayed the same until I started to notice extra room and movement late last March when I had about 25 days on the boots. That's also when I changed my 153cm Salomon Geishas for 164s and learned how to turn with a little speed in heavy & variable snow, which caused some sliding back and forth and twisting, especially the left boot. At the start of this season they were really roomy all over, and by the time I made it back to the bootfitter in November I was up to the last rungs of the top two buckles just trying to maintain some stability. Now the right boot's fit is improved but after 4-5 ski days the added material feels like it's getting loose, and the left foot still has movement and just doesn't have as much contact as I'm used to. The total number of days on these boots is about 40,

Questions:
  1. Are my boots too big? (I doubt it, but what do I know?)
  2. Is the roominess caused by weight/water weight loss, or have the liners really packed out that quickly? (On the one hand, "people" say they get more like 100 days on stock liners and a lot of my ski days were really 2-4 hours. On the other hand, my calf and ankle are certainly smaller, but could my foot have changed that much? I wouldn't have thought 15-20 pounds would do that, but I figure someone here must have dealt with a customer who gained or lost weight.)
  3. Can padding restore the all-over pressure I loved so much? (I know they'll keep tweaking things, but I'm starting to doubt that this is really going to work, and get kinda bored standing around the shop waiting to get my boots back.)
  4. Can I get the original fit back by remolding these liners, even though they were originally molded for a bigger version of me?
  5. If I were to get after market liners, which one(s) would you recommend? Is there an Intuition that would restore me to my happy place, or do I need Zipfits? ($$$$!!!!)

By the way, I know I'm fortunate to be far from miserable skiing in these boots; I mean, even cranking the buckles down doesn't hurt so long as I do it carefully. Heck, it's probably good for me to get lots of practice getting my feet back under me when the bouncing around makes me nervous and I stiffen up.


* My original bootfitter's equally competent son works with me if Dad isn't available; they record everything electronically so each knows what the other has done.
post #2 of 20
Thread Starter 
Bump. I didn't realize how long that post was going to turn out. If there's no response by tonight I'll assume it was too long to bother with and post a compressed version.
post #3 of 20
Questions:
  1. Are my boots too big? (I doubt it, but what do I know?) yes, for the number of days you are skiing, and the forces that you are putting into the boots, they are either the wrong size or the wrong volume/shape to control your foot/leg inside the boot.
  2. Is the roominess caused by weight/water weight loss, or have the liners really packed out that quickly? (On the one hand, "people" say they get more like 100 days on stock liners and a lot of my ski days were really 2-4 hours. On the other hand, my calf and ankle are certainly smaller, but could my foot have changed that much? I wouldn't have thought 15-20 pounds would do that, but I figure someone here must have dealt with a customer who gained or lost weight.) no, your feet do not lose or gain weight along with the rest of the places that your body stores fat.
  3. Can padding restore the all-over pressure I loved so much? (I know they'll keep tweaking things, but I'm starting to doubt that this is really going to work, and get kinda bored standing around the shop waiting to get my boots back.) it is possible, although no way for us to know what you patience level is, and whether your boot fitter has a clue, or has access to good material or knows where to put it.
  4. Can I get the original fit back by remolding these liners, even though they were originally molded for a bigger version of me? ​no, your heat moldable liners are not really heat moldable liners. more heat molding will not help, only further degrade the fit
  5. If I were to get after market liners, which one(s) would you recommend? Is there an Intuition that would restore me to my happy place, or do I need Zipfits? ($$$$!!!!) intuition probably not, zip fit in the correct volume version maybe. 

 

jim

post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Jim. This is all a learning experience for me, and I appreciate the lessons.

When I bought the Langes I was very much the middling out-of-shape intermediate, and my bootfitter probably thought that a performance boot would help my skiing but that I wasn't going to push this setup's limits anytime soon. He might have been right if I weren't determined to do more than cruise blues in good conditions.

About width--if it were the right shape, would a smaller 97mm last boot work? Is there another high-control option for narrow feet? The only boots I've seen with a narrower last are racing plugs, but it sounds like they'd need a lot of work to make them comfortable enough for all-day recreational use. At least I already have boot heaters to offset the lack of insulation!
post #5 of 20
Thread Starter 
Just a bump to see if someone had an opinion on last width, seeing as my feet are 94mm and the boot lasts are 97mm.
post #6 of 20

Don't understand your question about a smaller 97mm last boot.  Isn't that what you are in now?  Or do you mean shorter?  If shorter, than I'd say no you are probably in the correct length but could probably use a narrower boot.  Choices aren't many unless you go very still.  But Head makes a B5 and Dalbello makes a 95mm Scorpion that is softer than a 130.  There are others as well.

 

Lou

post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post

Don't understand your question about a smaller 97mm last boot.  Isn't that what you are in now?  Or do you mean shorter?  If shorter, than I'd say no you are probably in the correct length but could probably use a narrower boot.  Choices aren't many unless you go very still.  But Head makes a B5 and Dalbello makes a 95mm Scorpion that is softer than a 130.  There are others as well.

Lou
Sorry about that, Lou. Sometimes I edit so much that it turns into nonsense.

Yes, the RS's are 97mm wide. I meant to ask whether I'd be better off in a last that's narrower than 97mm, regardless of length, and it sounds like the answer is yes, so I'll look into those Head and Dalbello models. I'm a woman, but I don't care if it's a man's or woman's boot and will consider any performance-oriented recreational boot with the right shape and size. I flex the 120s OK, so I'll be looking at about the same kind of feel. Also, Lange makes race plugs with a 92mm last that are rated soft, medium and hard, if it came down to a plug boot.

As an aside, I think the RS's are the right shape because they felt good out of the box except some places around the toes and (I think) the outside of one ankle. After my bootfitter fixed that they were tight all over my foot and ankle, very responsive for the kind of middling-intermediate skiing I was doing, and still felt great with no pain or numbness. They felt that way right up until I took a great lesson and really started skiing them harder with longer skis, bigger turns, and some speed, at which point my left foot started moving around. My right boot feels very solid after the bootfitter's recent work, but my left foot, which is smaller than my right, still feels unstable because the added padding in specific places leaves areas without good contact.

It's good to hear that you think the length is good. I'd go shorter if I had to, but it's just hard to imagine a smaller shell given how the 24.5 fit initially. It's just too bad they're too wide, because as you can tell, I've gotten attached to them.

Thanks for the help!

ETA: let me know if any of that was confusing and I'll try to untangle it.
post #8 of 20

Choices aren't many unless you go very still.   Oh the joys of auto spell checker and then proofing your own writing.  At this point no idea what I meant, but to get narrower volume you will have small choice of boots.

 

Lou

post #9 of 20

Your reply just popped up as I was writing about my problems with spell check.  Weird!

 

Every boot manufacturer makes boots narrower than 97, but almost all will be 130 flex at least.  Since they can be softened I wouldn't worry about that.  Problem will be finding one.  Most shops don't get involved with boots that narrow and/or stiff.

 

Drop the thinking about men's and women's boot.  There are no men's boots, just "boots".  There are however women's boots and most are soft intermediate models.   If the women's boots are rated as performance or expert then most are simply "boots" in a different colour.

 

Fit is all that matters not men's or women's.  

 

The path you are heading down should bring you into contact with more experienced shops and fitters since the boots you are considering are sold primarily to racers and they are more demanding of fit.

 

Lou

post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 
And I haven't gotten an email notification of your post yet. The server must be bogged down or something.

You have my sympathy for your spell check issues. Are you on an iPhone? I sometimes write emails or posts on my iPod Touch, which has the same kind of spell check, so I appreciate how much easier it is to persuade my Android keyboard to accept my word choices.

I wish I weren't picky; all I want is to learn to be a decent all-mountain skier. I just prefer a lot of feedback and control, and if that means a narrower boot, so be it. As for women's vs. men's, I could care less; I learned my lesson when I went from the soft fluffy wrong-shaped women's Rossi torture devices chosen by my first fitter to the unisex Langes that let me stand up and control my skis.

I'm not going to complain about my experience. I think a bootfitter's compatibility with a client can be a little like a client's compatibility with a boot, especially if the client's needs change over time. My guy has 30 years of experience and was very thorough, but I think he put me in a 97mm lasted boot because he didn't expect me to turn into this kind of skier and wanted to avoid putting me through the cost of the work I'd need on a race boot. Maybe I'm being generous, but I have great footbeds and the Langes served me wonderfully for almost two seasons, and I knew from the start that this shop doesn't offer the kind of fit guarantee some do, so I don't feel like anyone owes me anything.

So I'll go back one more time to see if he gets it and carries a boot that will work. If not, there are enough very good bootfitters in northern Utah that I should be able to find one who can take care of me without resurrecting the PTBS (post-traumatic bootfitting syndrome) I still have from dealing with my first bootfitter. smile.gif

And who knows, maybe my tax refund will help pay off the credit card bill.

Thanks for all the great information, Lou; you've really helped me figure this out.
post #11 of 20

Don't know if Northern Utah means SLC, but if it does see Steve Bagley on the Snowbird Plaza.  He is a very experienced fitter, he may be hampered somewhat by available boot selection though.

 

Lou

post #12 of 20
Thread Starter 
Yep, SLC proper. I keep hearing great things about Steve; if he doesn't have the right boot maybe he can point me toward someone who might.
post #13 of 20

that I don't know but it is certainly worth a try.  Say hello for me.

 

Lou

post #14 of 20
Thread Starter 
I shall. Also considering Bootworks in PC, which apparently serves similarly demanding customers.

Whatever I do I've gotta do it soon. Today I decided I wanted stability at all cost so I cranked the boots down as much as possible. It was great to have my skis securely attached to my feet, but four hours later I was hurting bad enough to be glad I had to leave early, and it took a long time for the outline of the tongues and the texture of my socks to fade from my shins.
post #15 of 20

Classic boot too large syndrome.  Have heard of the guy in Park City but don't know anything about him.  Either way you'll be better off than you are now.

 

Lou

post #16 of 20
Thread Starter 
Blank post to change subscription setting
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Here's another question: how can I convince the next bootfitter I work with to take my request for high performance seriously? What people see when I walk in is a short, plain, greying, slightly pudgy 55 year old woman, none of which screams "high performance" to any purveyor of athletic gear. Yet for better or worse, it turns out high performance is what I need in ski boots. Part of the problem is that I don't really know how to talk about skiing and don't have anything to brag about. But maybe there are some keywords that would help them understand what I'm going for. Any hints?
post #18 of 20

Shouldn't be necessary to cajole.  Fitting isn't really about how you ski, it is about your foot and leg.  Flex is about how you ski.  There is an article on the store website that may help.  It is called The Right Fit (www.lous.ca).

 

Good luck.

 

Lou

post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Lou, that was very interesting reading, and it clears up a lot of my confusion.

I also read some of the material about binding position. I haven't yet replaced the demo bindings on my Salomon Geishas, so I'm considering trying them with the ball of my foot at the center of the running surface, just for giggles.

As for ramp, it drives me a little nuts how hard it is to find ramp info on boots and bindings. Sure, binding ramp will depend on sole length and (presumably) boot ramp will depend on size, but the width of most skis varies by ski length, yet ski manufacturers have no trouble picking a width/length to represent that ski.
post #20 of 20

You will not find information on boot ramp or binding delta.  You may find info on difference between binding heel height and toe height, but you will have to convert that info into angles.  Best if you can find a binding that is flat or nearly flat, since almost certainly your boot has at least enough angle if not already too much.  A good shop will also have or be able to make the shims necessary to flatten bindings.

 

Lou

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ask the Boot Guys
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Lange RS 120 SC's: Can I restore the original fit?