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Early Edging - Page 2

post #31 of 44
BTS,
Have you watched the video? If you have then let us hear your expert movement analysis on the movements that are happening in the video. Since you haven't said, is her ankle flexed? How much flex does she have at her knee? Is she balanced for/aft enough not to make any forward movement?
Explain more about how extension halts edging movements? When one moves thier knee side to side where does that movement happen? How does having a straighter knee effect that movement?
Centripital force pulls us to the inside of the arc, How does this make us balanced for/aft? Do you realize that youor balance point changes throughout the turn and we do actually need to move for/aft to account for that change? A balanced position at the end of a turn is not the same as at the beggining of a turn. You have to actively do this, it doesn't just happen.
In your flxed vs straight example what is the difference between the 2? Also do you think strightening the knee has an effect on this or doe it happen somewhere else? Also how does flexinf and extending effect edge angle. I'll give you a real world example, do a traverse, now flex and extend during that traverse maintaining your direction. Does your edge ange chage when you do this? NO So when you say that extension actually flattens the ski you are wrong as well as saying flexion creates tipping. If your edge angles are changing when you are flexing or extending it is because of another movement you have added. Not do to flexing and extending. I think you need to go back and rethink your cause and effect relationships.
Finally, you can take issue all you want with how this drill was coached and interpreted by the athlete. However maybe you should listen to what she is saying and try to understand what she is getting out of the drill and how it effects her skiing in a positive way(because she thinks it does). She is obviously a very accomplished skier and maybe you could learn from her outlook on skiing rather than just dismiss her and her coaches as wrong because it doesn't fit into your personl philosophy of skiing.
post #32 of 44
This discussion is primarily about pressure/joint rom management IMO. Can you still achieve high edge angles and get good grip with extension type movements? Yes, but you will likely need more time/distance with which to do so. Why? In regards to edge angles, think about the nature of femoral rotation. As bts alluded to, a straighter leg lends itself more towards the steering end of the specturm while a flexed one is more suited for tipping (edging), and in order to achieve pure edging while extending your hips/cm moving across via a nudge or push from the uphill skiwill be what facilitates this. The hips take longer to go across the skis in a extension scenario due to the resultant high arc of the vault. Tipping while flexed sends the cm across on a much lower trajectory and so you achieve more edging, sooner.

Pressure management: a lot of early pressure up high can actually decrease the amount you will have later because you only get "X" amount per turn--so how will you choose to spend it? For good grip on hard/icy snow on a direct down the fall line assault, flexing in tranny to create float is often optimal because it allows you to save pressure for when it matters most in these turns... In the apex. Thats not to say you can't get good grip extending but you'll need more room (read, bigger radius, more distance across the fall line) to do so.

Another way to think of this is that for optimal grip in certain scenarios, your mass has to begin accelerating upwardly at some point in the apex. The more it is able to do so, the more downward force you will be able to create- this downward force greatly enhances grip. But how much upward acceleration you get is directly related to how much downward acceleration you create up high, and extending delays how quickly the cm inclines inside because your movements will be much more aligned along the length of the ski rather than inside the new turn...

Typed on my phone, hope it makes sense.

zenny
post #33 of 44
 

This is the last I can respond today....too busy..

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

BTS,
Have you watched the video? If you have then let us hear your expert movement analysis on the movements that are happening in the video. Since you haven't said, is her ankle flexed? How much flex does she have at her knee? Is she balanced for/aft enough not to make any forward movement?

 

we've already covered the video, read above.

 

Yes she is extending her knee to move forward and up.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

Explain more about how extension halts edging movements? When one moves thier knee side to side where does that movement happen? How does having a straighter knee effect that movement?

 

I've said all I can say about why extension inhibits tipping.  If you still don't get it I don't think no matter what I say you are going to get it this year, or possibly next.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

Centripital force pulls us to the inside of the arc, How does this make us balanced for/aft?
 

Centripetal forces don't "pull us to the inside of the arc".  inertia is carrying us in a straight line until we allow reactionary forces in the ski to redirect it, which is normally not the same path due to upper lower seperation.  reactionary forces on the edge of the ski redirect our skis in a new direction, which can cause a somewhat curved path to take place first with the skis, this is often referred to as centripetal because the sidecut enables a curved path, but really its just a series of reactionary forces from he ski-snow interaction that ends up in a somewhat circular or curved path.

 

Only through tension in our body is our CoM redirected also on a new path.   Anytime the path of your skis turns and your CoM is wanting to continue straight, you have new balance vectors.  Merely pivoting your skis into steering angle, or tipping your skis and causing them to bend into steering angle; puts you more fore then you were a moment before.  it is not neccessary to project your CoM forward over the shovel of your ski.  pulling your feet back is a good thing, I've said that already.  Extending yourself that way has unintended consequences.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

You have to actively do this, it doesn't just happen.
 

Well no you don't have to move your CoM forward like that.  You can ski into pressure and ski into good balance with much more refined movements.  If you allow yourself to become too far aft as you are finishing the last turn, then perhaps you will have to make a corrective move like that.  If you are on top of it earlier, then no correction is needed.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post


In your flxed vs straight example what is the difference between the 2? Also do you think strightening the knee has an effect on this or doe it happen somewhere else?
 

Sorry I don't understand this question

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

 Also do you think strightening the knee has an effect on this or doe it happen somewhere else? Also how does flexinf and extending effect edge angle. I'll give you a real world example, do a traverse, now flex and extend during that traverse maintaining your direction. Does your edge ange chage when you do this? NO So when you say that extension actually flattens the ski you are wrong as well as saying flexion creates tipping. If your edge angles are changing when you are flexing or extending it is because of another movement you have added. Not do to flexing and extending. I think you need to go back and rethink your cause and effect relationships.
 
No Loki, you need to.  :-)  but take the traverse example, its a good one.  Traverse in balance with legs long you will have to compensate with a lot of hip angulation.  When you allow your knees to bend you have way way more RoM to tip and untip your skis in your legs as need and comfortably stay in balance.  There is no contest.  Many people will tell you that in certain ski instructor circles it has been in fashion at some point to do an extension up movement, for a number of reasons, one of which is that it helps to flatten the skis.  
 
But we aren't talking about traversing we are talking about how to develop edge angles on the downhill side of your skis, ie start a turn.  With your legs limber and bent, we can easily tip the skis down the hill while counter balancing our hips and CoM up the hill because we can keep our hips still over the skis in a place of balance, even while developing edge angles.  When you extend, you create a situation where the only way to create tipping down the hill is to actually move the hip down the hill.  At early stages that will likely be out of balance because you're having to move too much of the CoM inside too soon.  Or you can do as Zenny suggests and tip very slowly while keeping the CoM up on top in balance, but the turn entry will very slow due to the limited range of motion to develop edge angles.  You can only move the CoM inside as fast as the edge angles and reactionary forces are created to support that in balance.  More often what we see are people diving down the hill, out of balance, as they attempt to develop some  edge angle by moving their hips down the hill rather then their knee and lower leg.
 
Extending on that uphill leg therefore should only really be used, as Zenny suggests, for longer radius turns where there is plenty of time to develop the turn entry edge angles.  If its used for medium and short turns then the skier will likely have to either pivot their skis into a state of balance or they will go out of balance to the inside as they try to huck their hips down the hill to develop edge angles on straighter legs.
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

Finally, you can take issue all you want with how this drill was coached and interpreted by the athlete. However maybe you should listen to what she is saying and try to understand what she is getting out of the drill and how it effects her skiing in a positive way(because she thinks it does). She is obviously a very accomplished skier and maybe you could learn from her outlook on skiing rather than just dismiss her and her coaches as wrong because it doesn't fit into your personl philosophy of skiing.
 

I listen and read everything Loki.  I don't take anything from anybody as gospel because even people that I respect the most of all say things that are simply wrong. 

 

The only reason we're having this conversation is because someone noted the up move, and i concurred.  I like the drill for the purpose of getting over the uphill ski laterally.  I don't like the extension move to get forward.  If she needs to move forward it should be done without extension.  Even she herself felt a need to clarify that point, which indicates some controversy amongst her peers and coach don't ya think?  I suppose we'll never know, but for my part I'd rather ensure fore-aft balance other ways then that for all the reasons I have laid out.

post #34 of 44

I feel like i am living this commercial :eek

 

post #35 of 44

Loki, look at these back to back and figure out whats going on in them. You will have all your answers when you figure out why they are different. Better yet, do the drill in the video. 

 

 

post #36 of 44
Clink83,
I see the difference and understand it. The reason I'm asking the questions of BTS is because I don't believe he does. I've asked him to explain things a couple of times and the only answer he can come up with is basically, "because I say so." If you look at zen tunes answer that is more along the lines of what I was looking for in an answer but he was unable to provide anything like that.

Zen,
thanks for the great answer. edging movements are a combination of femur rotation and addiction/abduction. With the adductor/abductor muscle group being stronger than the femur rotational muscle group. If the femur is in more of a flexed position in the hip socked it allows us to use the adductor/abductors more as well as giving us a bigger range off movement than when the femur is extended in the hip socked. As I watch the video I see a lot of knee extension but very little change in the angle at then hip. Do you think the knee extension they are using has much of a negative effect on thier ability to edge?

BTS,
I have asked you several times to expand on your answer as to why extension moves inhibit edging movements and you have avoided answering other than to repeat your answer which isn't' really an answer. You have offered no actual proof of what you said other than you said it. I asked you about the difference between the movements you asked me to do, stand tall and try to roll your ankles-kniw flex and relax isn't it easier," and you had no answer. You were the one that claimed centripetal forces automatically balance us for/aft, not me. By the way lookup the definition. And again your claim that merely edging your ski or pivoting it to a steering angle brings your com forward is untrue. As is your claim that flexion or extension movements effect edge angle. That is what the traverse drill proved. Simply flexing or extending doesn't increase or decrease edge angle. Again your cause and effect relationships are simply wrong.
post #37 of 44
Don't get stuck in rut think that a drill is ok because some of the best use it. Sometimes it about communicating something that is not clicking in the mind of an individual despite the best drills. I don't agree with all that is posted but I do understand the value and it does. Of make it wrong.
post #38 of 44
Loki, when I watch this drill I note how it is designed primarily to get one balanced over the new outside early (while it is still the new inside, ideally I believe) and that is a great focus for those that, as Mikaela discusses, are dropping inside to soon/too fast and ending up on their inside skis. Having said that, and in relation to your question regarding extension and edging, take a look at this screenshot I took of the initiation of one of these turns:



Note how her outside (stance leg) ankle is flexed while the knee is extended. Normally this wouldn't be an issue but since it is weighted so heavily it is preventing or at least delaying eversion of the foot. This is because eversion is one of three movements of the outside foot during edging (tipping if you prefer)--the other 2 being external rotation and dorsiflexion. But since the foot/ankle in this case is "locked and loaded ", it's ability to move in these three planes is restricted, and now she must wait for the cm to incline inside more to generate angles which is actually why this is a pretty good patience drill...but I wouldn't want someone I coach to ski this way normally. This is only a drill. Hoisting the body over the skis to get forward and sliding the feet underneath oneself to get forward both work, but they are not the same thing.

Here's a nice little graphic which shows the foot and ankle movements fwiw:



zenny
Edited by zentune - 2/9/15 at 11:47am
post #39 of 44

Zenny,  Good observation and all I want to add is to point out how important patience is in the development of flow. 

post #40 of 44
Loki I am sorry my explanations have not been adequate for you. Which cause and effect things do you think are wrong I will try to address them. This weekend I am busy moving my parents so it may not happen today or actually until later this week
Edited by borntoski683 - 2/8/15 at 9:02am
post #41 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

Does this move appear to allow the skis to scissor more?  Can you provide some detail on your perceived result?
Quote:
razie's reply: I think it's not a really different result, I still kept my inside ski back as usual... just that instead of letting the outside ski sort of come around gliding on its own pace, it was a combination of a strong pulling back and extension the same time, so you feel like you are just placing it to the side but behind the hips at the same time

Interesting. I'm not sure if the result is the same or different, but one thing that I've been dialed in on this season is finding one spot just ahead of my toe pieces and try to stay balanced on that spot throughout each turn. I wouldn't say completely that my outside ski is further behind my hips than before, but it keeps me from going astray and letting the outside ski get too far ahead of me. I have found this extraordinarily helpful. By being dialed into such a small (self imposed) sweet spot if I'm going to get knocked off that spot I know very early and can adjust immediately, so any variations of balance that I experienced before are now quite minimal. 

post #42 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

I have posted this before. you guys are getting hung up on the UP/FORWARD part of this. Although it is important...It is a FORWARD move and all about ankle Flexion

 

The focus.of the drill.....important part is getting on the uphill,  inside ski early...ride the LTE edge and then roll the ski to it's BTE progressively and start carving the top of the turn. BEFORE THE FALLINE

 

And on the contrary, it is not just a drill, racers absolutely ski like this in the course. Particularly Ligety! I think the more interesting thing is he still has weight( Frame #3 & 4) on his outside ski as he transfers weight to his uphill ski. He is on his new (outside) ski before all weigh is off his old outside ski and momentarily has both weighted

 

 


This is it as far as I'm concerned and something that you used to learn to ski on straight skis as a matter of course, just to ski them well whether you raced on not.

 

To some extend with shaped skis it easy to forget as they carve so much more readily, be when a rapid direction change must be made it is the only way to get an explosive direction change without sacrificing any speed and even more like building speed in the process.

post #43 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by loki1 View Post

BTS,
I have asked you several times to expand on your answer as to why extension moves inhibit edging movements and you have avoided answering other than to repeat your answer which isn't' really an answer. 

I didn't follow your debate in detail, but extension movements kill edging because to effectively edge a ski you need the knees to be free and allowed to move into the turn. Extension by its very definition, locks the knees by extending them and thus reducing edging angles and kills effective edging or rather tipping of the skis... ahem... knees (which are rather interestingly attached to them skis).

 

Otherwise, with knees locked or extending, to edge the ski, you are dragging the entire upper body down, which like... duh, everyone knows, it's like... bad, duh.  Even if you don't care and you're Iclinatus, it will still limit your final tipping/edging angles AND reduce traction when you need it the most (if you raced motorcycles at the performance level, you'd know the reason why that is).

 

cheers

:duel: 

 

this is Inclinatus, btw - note his limited final angles and the fact that even those are developed UNDER the fall line where, like, who cares, right?

 

 

in complete opposition to Lindsey, who keeps the knees completely free in frame 4 below and moving into the turn in frames 5-9 etc establishing big angles like BEFORE the fall line:

 

 

btw and before you say anything, yes, the inside knee is the one that matters - the other one is just extending :eek puzzled? yeah :cool look at the position of the new outside femur between frames 4 and 5 and think what it takes to do that with an extended leg. yeah, Inclinatus, right?

 

p.s. skiing is easy, just pick the right movements and stick to them :ski


Edited by razie - 2/8/15 at 3:10pm
post #44 of 44
Thread Starter 

Ok guys thaks for the answers. Good pictıres, Mikaela Shiffrins video helped a lot too. I even did the drill :)

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