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MA / Suggestions for improvement (for 8 yr old)

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 

Short vid of my daughter from a recent race (apologies for quality; starts around 8 sec, she is on the near course).

 

What are the top 2 or 3 things that you would work on fixing (two footed stance, fore-aft etc.)? If you could also suggest a couple of good drills for each "fix" that would be highly appreciated as well. 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

post #2 of 23

Most important thing is to learn how to balance on the outside ski. She is using the inside as an inrigger.

post #3 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Most important thing is to learn how to balance on the outside ski. She is using the inside as an inrigger.

 

Jamt, yes definitely a lot of weight on that inside ski.  Any suggestions on drills? One-ski skiing? Picking up inside ski after transition?

post #4 of 23
She can't get anything from the outside ski becau.... Why am i typing this again? Jamt told you!

Get used to carving on one ski: J turns, one ski skiing. Angulation drills.

See this http://www.askicoach.com/wiki/Razie_Ski_Blog/Stance_and_balance

Cheers.
post #5 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

She can't get anything from the outside ski becau.... Why am i typing this again? Jamt told you!

Get used to carving on one ski: J turns, one ski skiing. Angulation drills.

See this http://www.askicoach.com/wiki/Razie_Ski_Blog/Stance_and_balance

Cheers.


@razie thanks.  Will look into your suggestions.

post #6 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GettingThere View Post
 


@razie thanks.  Will look into your suggestions.


right - you can keep her and yourself busy all season with exploring and discovering balance and range of motion - that's the most important at her age.

 

cheers

post #7 of 23

8 years old? Mileage and coaching. Really good for her age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Most important thing is to learn how to balance on the outside ski. She is using the inside as an inrigger.

Actually, I would approach it from the opposite direction.  While in fact she is using the inside as an "inrigger", her lack of understanding how to use the inside ski is disturbing her relationship with the outside ski. And while the goal is to carve on the outside, proper utilization of the inside ski promotes that in many ways. 

 

I believe that making the inside ski more functional will help her balance on the outside ski better, as others have suggested. 

post #8 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

8 years old? Mileage and coaching. Really good for her age.

Actually, I would approach it from the opposite direction.  While in fact she is using the inside as an "inrigger", her lack of understanding how to use the inside ski is disturbing her relationship with the outside ski. And while the goal is to carve on the outside, proper utilization of the inside ski promotes that in many ways. 

 

I believe that making the inside ski more functional will help her balance on the outside ski better, as others have suggested. 


i disagree somewhat - taking away the wide base of support is the best to teach balance. so keep the feet together and take them to the side, away from under the body... that would be my course of action. i start with side slipping/braquage, 360s and so on... then progressing to J turns and one footed stuff like Javelins and phantoms. It's all mental: they willl not leave the safety of that wide base of support for no reason - you have to gradually build their confidence on a narrow stance and take the feet gradually away from under the body.

 

you have to couple with range of motion of the upper body, so they can angulate and stay in balance as the feet move out.

 

of course, not to say inside ski discipline should not be taught... by maybe not directly to an 8 year old, but indirectly...

 

cheers,

raz

 

p.s. some ice skating and rollerblading would be good as well, to feel balance on an edge out from under the body...

post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


i disagree somewhat - taking away the wide base of support is the best to teach balance. so keep the feet together and take them to the side, away from under the body... that would be my course of action. i start with side slipping/braquage, 360s and so on... then progressing to J turns and one footed stuff like Javelins and phantoms. It's all mental: they willl not leave the safety of that wide base of support for no reason - you have to gradually build their confidence on a narrow stance and take the feet gradually away from under the body.

 

you have to couple with range of motion of the upper body, so they can angulate and stay in balance as the feet move out.

 

of course, not to say inside ski discipline should not be taught... by maybe not directly to an 8 year old, but indirectly...

 

cheers,

raz

 

p.s. some ice skating and rollerblading would be good as well, to feel balance on an edge out from under the body...

 

That's what I was thinking, get her more comfortable on balancing just on the outside ski by "taking away" the inside.

 

  @vindibona1 could you explain more about what you mean by better use of the inside ski? start turn more by tipping the inside?

post #10 of 23

Besides what's been mentioned.

Too concentrated on the hand position. The hands are way out in front while she's way behind them. Hands should be supporting positions not causing them.

It's tough to deal with hands with everyone because as soon as you mention it that sticks in their brain. Adults too.

Do some skiing doing the drills suggested without poles.

Releasing drills - side slips, whirlybirds on snow, falling leafs etc. Get her in the habit of when starting out on a slope while across it, release the skis in a slide, drop the tips and off you go. That way you're practicing without practicing.

 

J turns up the hill generally work magic while doing them. Also how far you make it up is good feedback for the skier. Get some video of her doing that when successful.

post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GettingThere View Post
 

 

That's what I was thinking, get her more comfortable on balancing just on the outside ski by "taking away" the inside.

 

 

don't forget there is a lot of monkey see monkey do at this age - double check your own skiing if she follows you around ;) 

 

also, take video often and show her - often they have to see what they do to realize what you're talking about...

 

also keep her a lot in bumps, glades etc - these teach them the right stuff while having fun... and above all, have patience - they won't get it right away... 

post #12 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 

don't forget there is a lot of monkey see monkey do at this age - double check your own skiing if she follows you around ;) 

 

also, take video often and show her - often they have to see what they do to realize what you're talking about...

 

also keep her a lot in bumps, glades etc - these teach them the right stuff while having fun... and above all, have patience - they won't get it right away... 

 

If she was following this monkey she would be a much better skier!!  I think she is holding on to a lot of vestigial movements (she started skiing at 4 yr ish and has always had a wide and till recently mostly aft stance).

 

She skis with the devo team so they get a lot of mileage.  I do agree about bumps, jumps, glades etc - our options these last couple of years in Tahoe have been restricted to the groomers.  I agree about showing her video frequently.  I did show her this from the race and also sat her down and made her watch the Beaver Creek Super G!  Thanks for the feedback - will update at the end of the season as she progresses.

post #13 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Besides what's been mentioned.

Too concentrated on the hand position. The hands are way out in front while she's way behind them. Hands should be supporting positions not causing them.

It's tough to deal with hands with everyone because as soon as you mention it that sticks in their brain. Adults too.

Do some skiing doing the drills suggested without poles.

Releasing drills - side slips, whirlybirds on snow, falling leafs etc. Get her in the habit of when starting out on a slope while across it, release the skis in a slide, drop the tips and off you go. That way you're practicing without practicing.

 

J turns up the hill generally work magic while doing them. Also how far you make it up is good feedback for the skier. Get some video of her doing that when successful.

 

Thanks Tog.  Agree.  She is fundamentally aft (and needs to work her balance forward).  At this stage the coaches tell them to keep the hands out (forward) so you see a lot of racers in her age group (even the ones with good times) with straight ankles but a lot of forward bend at the waist and with the hands.

post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


i disagree somewhat - taking away the wide base of support is the best to teach balance. so keep the feet together and take them to the side, away from under the body... that would be my course of action. i start with side slipping/braquage, 360s and so on... then progressing to J turns and one footed stuff like Javelins and phantoms. It's all mental: they willl not leave the safety of that wide base of support for no reason - you have to gradually build their confidence on a narrow stance and take the feet gradually away from under the body.

 

you have to couple with range of motion of the upper body, so they can angulate and stay in balance as the feet move out.

 

of course, not to say inside ski discipline should not be taught... by maybe not directly to an 8 year old, but indirectly...

 

cheers,

raz

 

p.s. some ice skating and rollerblading would be good as well, to feel balance on an edge out from under the body...

You and I are just going to disagree.  In my experience the properly functioning inside ski is what promotes the balance on the outside in a dynamic situation. It does not promote a wider base of support if taught properly. Quite the opposite. Training the inside ski teaches is appropriate pressure transfer to the outside by helping the direction of travel of the CoM which finds the balance point against the outside ski as a RESULT of its activity.  What  many folks tend to believe is that directing attention to the outside ski will solve those balancing issues. And while that can work with some skiers in some circumstances, that still leaves the inside ski unattended to. It has been my experience that using the inside ski as a tool to the end of properly transitioning pressure transfer and proper pressure distribution is a more smooth, natural and progressive approach.  Look at the vid again. The inside ski has notable deficiencies, and training the inside ski will help to train the CoM to track properly and then balance on the outside ski as a result of everything working together. 

 

FWIW I abandoned javelins years ago as the phantom does more to generate some of the needed torque thru the inside hip to the outside to help with separation. 

 

Thanks for your reply.  Although it did not change my mind it allowed me to think thru my position again. 

post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

You and I are just going to disagree.  In my experience the properly functioning inside ski is what promotes the balance on the outside in a dynamic situation. It does not promote a wider base of support if taught properly. Quite the opposite. Training the inside ski teaches is appropriate pressure transfer to the outside by helping the direction of travel of the CoM which finds the balance point against the outside ski as a RESULT of its activity.  What  many folks tend to believe is that directing attention to the outside ski will solve those balancing issues. And while that can work with some skiers in some circumstances, that still leaves the inside ski unattended to. It has been my experience that using the inside ski as a tool to the end of properly transitioning pressure transfer and proper pressure distribution is a more smooth, natural and progressive approach.  Look at the vid again. The inside ski has notable deficiencies, and training the inside ski will help to train the CoM to track properly and then balance on the outside ski as a result of everything working together. 

 

FWIW I abandoned javelins years ago as the phantom does more to generate some of the needed torque thru the inside hip to the outside to help with separation. 

 

Thanks for your reply.  Although it did not change my mind it allowed me to think thru my position again. 


no problem, we can gracefully disagree :)

 

however, note that I said to first narrow the stance and then take the feet out form under the body, I did not to say jump on the one leg right away

 

and second, I said I disagree with you somewhat because I would agree with you on the idea, if she was not 8. at that age, overall balance and range of motion are bigger issues and without those, it has been my experience with this age group that you can't address the inside ski discipline.... it's a matter of priorities, but they are to a large extent very related, yes.

 

In my mind, Javelins serve functions complimentary to the phantoms - I use them successfully together. While the phantom drill may encourage rotation, the Javelin discourages it for instance...

 

cheers,

raz


Edited by razie - 2/4/15 at 3:19pm
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


no problem, we can gracefully disagree :)

 

 I said I disagree with you somewhat because I would agree with you on the idea, if she was not 8. at that age, overall balance and range of motion are bigger issues and without those, it has been my experience with this age group that you can't address the inside ski discipline.... it's a matter of priorities, but they are to a large extent very related, yes.

 

In my mind, Javelins serve functions complimentary to the phantoms - I use them successfully together. While the phantom drill may encourage rotation, the Javelin discourages it for instance...

 

cheers,

raz

I appreciate your courteous replies raz and I hold you in high regard. I agree that 8 year olds present situations that older students do not. Many just aren't quite formed muscularly yet. To see an 8 years old ski this well is truly an unusual sight. I'm not sure how I would approach teaching her unless I was on the hill with her and could better evaluate her. 

 

Personally, I  don't think either the javelin or phantom are fully understood by most instructors, particularly the phantom. While you said you find the phantom encourages rotation, I find it does the opposite. When done properly, the phantom engages activity at the hip socket that would cause it to create an opposing force in the opposite direction of a turn. Rotation would only occur because the outside leg would create that.  And typically I use phantoms only in a static mode as I want to encourage that activity with the inside ski on the snow to provide even more torque generated by the resistance of the snow.  My problem with javelins is that it relies on the outside ski for countering when a good portion of countering in actual skiing comes from the activity in the inside leg and hip.  

 

Once I discovered how important the inside ski is to outside ski function it changed my teaching, but more importantly the outcome of my lessons at all levels. I'm clearly seeing inside ski deficiencies with this 8 year old skier. But again, I'm not sure how I would approach it as she is only 8 and I'm not there with her...  but I still see what I see. 

post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

Personally, I  don't think either the javelin or phantom are fully understood by most instructors, particularly the phantom. 

I think I agree. I have not seen phantoms done at all, anywhere I have skied so far. It is proposed/created by only one school/system, so it is not widely known. I do find it to be extremely good. Even in the racing circles, the inside foot is not addressed directly for the most part - the good ones all do what's needed, but mostly not because they have focused on it, but because of Darwinian-like selection and all sorts of other cues and directions "keep shins parallel", "tips even", "weight the outside ski" etc. Perhaps many coaches tend to focus on visibles not think through the causes? Anyways, that's now philosophy touching on religion :cool

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

While you said you find the phantom encourages rotation, I find it does the opposite. When done properly, the phantom engages activity at the hip socket that would cause it to create an opposing force in the opposite direction of a turn. Rotation would only occur because the outside leg would create that.  And typically I use phantoms only in a static mode as I want to encourage that activity with the inside ski on the snow to provide even more torque generated by the resistance of the snow.  My problem with javelins is that it relies on the outside ski for countering when a good portion of countering in actual skiing comes from the activity in the inside leg and hip.  

 

I guess I was thinking from the perspective of introducing either to someone that hasn't done them before - looking down to do the phantom, and busy with all those things and new feelings, nothing really stops me from rotating the hips, I have to know to not do that or to counter-rotate them specifically, while the javelin kind of locks them by moving the foot forward and over... ?

 

cheers,

raz

 

edit/ps - You are very right... about doing it right... I remember a couple of years ago, I was trying to pull back my inside foot so much that I was completely locking up my upper body and spent the better part of one season skiing like crap, until a guy showed some mercy and spent a few runs with me while avoiding the words "you" and "idiot" :rolleyes I was initially told I shuffled and should match the boots, but it's a matter of when and how you do it that is really important - if you don't do it right, if you pull back from the hips/butt, you can be in big trouble...


Edited by razie - 2/5/15 at 10:21am
post #18 of 23
By phantoms you mean tipping the inside ski?
post #19 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

By phantoms you mean tipping the inside ski?


at the core, but it's the set of related things you do to enable that:

- lift the tail off the snow: ensures you are forward and balance is only on the other foot and you free up the knee

- bring it close to the other boot, to allow tipping

- pull it back so the boots are more or less matched/even, allows the knees to move in rather than the hips

- tip it

 

And the other cool thing is if you do it more and more and earlier and earlier, they'll start doing it while the new outside ski is still uphill, on the other edge, without even realizing it... and that's when you start building some serious balance and skill... that's the same with Javelins I guess.

 

I use it a fair bit to cure hip dumping for instance... but it's part of my regular balance workout routine now.


Edited by razie - 2/5/15 at 10:36am
post #20 of 23

Yeah i do that. I usually *gasp* combine it with steering too.

 

And the other cool thing is if you do it more and more and earlier and earlier, they'll start doing it while the new downhill ski is still uphill, on the other edge, without even realizing it... and that's when you start building some serious balance and skill... that's the same with Javelins I guess.

 

You mean while the old downhill ski is downhill before it becomes the new inside? This is why we don't use downhill/uphill anymore.

Otherwise you're talking tipping the old inside ski from little toe while it's uphill to big toe. This what you're talking? That's a different move.

post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Yeah i do that. I usually *gasp* combine it with steering too.

 

And the other cool thing is if you do it more and more and earlier and earlier, they'll start doing it while the new downhill ski is still uphill, on the other edge, without even realizing it... and that's when you start building some serious balance and skill... that's the same with Javelins I guess.

 

You mean while the old downhill ski is downhill before it becomes the new inside? This is why we don't use downhill/uphill anymore.

Otherwise you're talking tipping the old inside ski from little toe while it's uphill to big toe. This what you're talking? That's a different move.


ok. fixed it. happy now?

 

I mean "new outside ski is still uphill, on the other edge". So at that point it's the same thing: you lift the old outside which is the new inside or will be shortly and tip it, but the old inside which will be the new outside is actually still on it's uphill edge or little toe.....  I have a head ache now.... I don't know, just lift one and leave the other one on snow, ok?

 

:rotflmao: 


Edited by razie - 2/5/15 at 10:50am
post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

I think I agree. I have not seen phantoms done at all, anywhere I have skied so far. It is proposed/created by only one school/system, so it is not widely known. I do find it to be extremely good. Even in the racing circles, the inside foot is not addressed directly for the most part - the good ones all do what's needed, but mostly not because they have focused on it, but because of Darwinian-like selection and all sorts of other cues and directions "keep shins parallel", "tips even" etc. Perhaps many coaches tend to focus on visibles not think through the causes? Anyways, that's now philosophy touching on religion :cool

 

I guess I was thinking from the perspective of introducing either to someone that hasn't done them before - looking down to do the phantom, and busy with all those things and new feelings, nothing really stops me from rotating the hips, I have to know to not do that or to counter-rotate them specifically, while the javelin kind of locks them by moving the foot forward and over... ?

 

cheers,

raz

Quote:
 I think I agree. I have not seen phantoms done at all, anywhere I have skied so far. It is proposed/created by only one school/system, so it is not widely known.

I've skied with the guy a couple times. Frankly I don't think he understands how it functions an how it can be taken further for his students. 

 

Quote:
 Even in the racing circles, the inside foot is not addressed directly for the most part 

I know. And it surprises me. It all functions together. I think where it gets confusing is that folks think of activity and pressure as being the same thing when in fact they are independent of each other. Now I know people are going to jump all over this... but I actually think in some ways the outside ski is more passive than we believe it to be.  It's just that if everything else is functioning properly, mother nature and physics brings pressure TO IT and because of that it appears to be  functionally dominant.

post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 


at the core, but it's the set of related things you do to enable that:

- lift the tail off the snow: ensures you are forward and balance is only on the other foot and you free up the knee

- bring it close to the other boot, to allow tipping

- pull it back so the boots are more or less matched/even, allows the knees to move in rather than the hips

- tip it

 

And the other cool thing is if you do it more and more and earlier and earlier, they'll start doing it while the new outside ski is still uphill, on the other edge, without even realizing it... and that's when you start building some serious balance and skill... that's the same with Javelins I guess.

 

I use it a fair bit to cure hip dumping for instance... but it's part of my regular balance workout routine now.

 This is probably the best description of a drill that spawned a book series that I've seen. 

 

Quote:
 Tog: "And the other cool thing is if you do it more and more and earlier and earlier, they'll start doing it while the new downhill ski is still uphill, on the other edge, without even realizing it... and that's when you start building some serious balance and skill...

 

Exactly. This is discovery of the power of the inside ski. 

 

Quote:
 Tog: " that's the same with Javelins I guess.""

I don't agree entirely.  The above drill essentially tips/torques the ski in the direction of the turn and engages the inside hip. Javelins do not engage the inside hip in the same way and rely on the outside leg for the counter.  Sometimes javelins are even presented as converging skis, with the uphill ski tip crossing over the downhill ski. Both exercises get you to balance on the outside ski, but I think the elements of the other drill natural mimic natural ski moves better and can be taken completely in context to the next step in skier development while the javelin is a bit out of context, solely focusing on outside ski balance ignoring the function of the inside ski in actual skiing.  

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