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Every skiers dream? 14 inches dropped by mother nature in the East? - Page 3

post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I thought it was a special powder clinic?

 

For people that get the idea that they really need to learn how to ski powder when apparently they don't get enough opportunity to learn at a local resort...

 

...And who decide this is a better way to spend their money to learn instead of 5 storm-chasing trips to someplace like Targhee...

post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I thought it was a special powder clinic?


So did/do I. Hence my dismay that they were using an already outdated approach. IMO anyway.

post #63 of 89
The video is from 2011.
post #64 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

The video is from 2011.


And it was outdated then.  And maybe I misunderstood. But despite its age, my impression is that said video was posted now as still being a good example of how to ski powder or deep snow. I don't think it was in 2011. I don't think it is now. 

 

FWIW I was out with another BC heli op that season. I was on my Praxis Powder Boards. Our guides were on JJs and Chopsticks IIRC. They encouraged folks who needed skis to use fleet JJs. 

post #65 of 89
The video is an example of people who can barely ski adequately getting better. They could have learned everything at home before going but did not. Going to more modern skis would not make them better, just make it easier to do their poor technique.

This isn't complicsted.
post #66 of 89

Well, here is an argument for learning to ski powder on sub-100 skis ... 

 

 

 

 

 

This day started off with about 5" of dust on CRUST -- even 120 underfoot wouldn't have floated you enough -- and no one was on a ski over 100. (In fact, most of these skiers don't even own a ski over 100, but I digress.)  By the end of the day, we were in over our knees in a lot of places. Thank goodness we didn't have to go buy more skis to enjoy the nice surprise.

 

Anyway, here is a lot of powder skiing done by normal people in fairly normal conditions (ie, not pros, not Wolf Creek, not BC helis); maybe it will help the visual part of figuring it out.

post #67 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

 

 

Technique matters. Skiing "3D"snow is not the same as skiing firm snow. Period (see the above link). One is almost totally edge based. The other is almost totally base based. Almost everything that makes the combination of gear and technique good at one cripples it at the other.

You're right. Skiing powder on my fat skis (I do ski at Whitewater. I see powder now and then.) is fun and easier. But I must do it wrong. I still initiate by moving my COM down the hill and tipping my skis toward their downhill edges. I can tip them a lot, let them run deeper, and the platform that builds under the base of the skis, together with the early rise at both ends of the skis, will pull me into a nice turn. Or I can tip them less, keep them flatter, stay closer to the surface, steer and smear.

 

On hard snow with a carving ski, I can tip them more and the hard surface combined with the sidecut of the ski will bend the ski and I will be pulled into a low effort carved turn. Or I can keep them flatter and allow them to smear without forcing them into a push-and-shove skid.

 

For me, the moves and outcomes are surprisingly similar, despite the fact that one is base based and the other is edge based.

 

So what am I doing wrong?

post #68 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 

Well, here is an argument for learning to ski powder on sub-100 skis ... 

 

This day started off with about 5" of dust on CRUST -- even 120 underfoot wouldn't have floated you enough -- and no one was on a ski over 100. (In fact, most of these skiers don't even own a ski over 100, but I digress.)  By the end of the day, we were in over our knees in a lot of places. Thank goodness we didn't have to go buy more skis to enjoy the nice surprise.

 

Anyway, here is a lot of powder skiing done by normal people in fairly normal conditions (ie, not pros, not Wolf Creek, not BC helis); maybe it will help the visual part of figuring it out.

 

 

Without a doubt a bigger quiver of skills is better than a smaller quiver of skills. And being able to use skis outside their design center is certainly a good thing.

 

However, to the OP's issue, acquiring that set of skills is easier on appropriate gear than it is on inappropriate gear. Just as no reasonable person would suggest learning to ski firm snow on reverse/reverse powder skis, no reasonable person should suggest learning to ski powder (or any form of deep fresh snow) on narrower conventional cambered/sidecut skis. Or even skis tending in that direction. Can such things be done? Yes. Is it a wise use of time and energy (and likely tears)? Not so much. 

 

Bottom line - learning to ski any "borderline" form of snow - be it ice or powder - is more readily done on gear designed for that environment. And it is pure mythology to suggest that such gear will make you a worse skier. What it will do is make recovery from mistakes easier. Which will lead to a faster learning curve.

 

Regarding Tog's video. Sorry. Those were not people who could not ski. They were people new to powder. And they were taught to ski powder as if they were skiing on state of the art gear from the 90s.


Edited by spindrift - 2/7/15 at 4:02pm
post #69 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcooley View Post
 

You're right. Skiing powder on my fat skis (I do ski at Whitewater. I see powder now and then.) is fun and easier. But I must do it wrong. I still initiate by moving my COM down the hill and tipping my skis toward their downhill edges. I can tip them a lot, let them run deeper, and the platform that builds under the base of the skis, together with the early rise at both ends of the skis, will pull me into a nice turn. Or I can tip them less, keep them flatter, stay closer to the surface, steer and smear.

 

On hard snow with a carving ski, I can tip them more and the hard surface combined with the sidecut of the ski will bend the ski and I will be pulled into a low effort carved turn. Or I can keep them flatter and allow them to smear without forcing them into a push-and-shove skid.

 

For me, the moves and outcomes are surprisingly similar, despite the fact that one is base based and the other is edge based.

 

So what am I doing wrong?


I would not confuse having a powder platform that is a basic result of a ski's design with having a platform that is the result of a delicate balancing and bouncing act to defeat a ski's design. Again, read the McConkey piece. It contains the kernel of the theory of operation and design of every modern powder ski and virtually all (maybe literally all) credible current all-around skis. It is arguably the blueprint for the evolution of all rockered five-pointy skis today.  Compare the two videos in play in this thread. The CMH one has the instructor/guide loading the ski via significant weighting and unweighting  to build enough of a platform to decamber it. In the Lorraine video and many others, you see unweighting - but not often following an explicit weighting and loading of the skis to decamber them - because the skis need no (or little) decambering. .

 

BTW - watch a range of historical videos of powder skiing and it is in only the most exceptional moments (notably wrt snow) that older school skis can simply be tipped to engage an arced turn. They must be loaded quite explicitly and delicately. A modern powder ski ( and often modern wider all around skis) can generally just be tipped.  And because of that characteristic, they can be tipped to much higher edge angles that allow easier,  faster and bigger arced or smeared  turns in powder.

 

You mention your early rise at both ends of your skis... 

post #70 of 89
The op is in Jersey. He's not skiing in 3 feet of powder nor is he likely to buy powder skis.
Jhcooley nailed it.
So what people today on current powder gear are handicapped from people 10 years from now in learning powder? All the current gear will be considered practically barbaric? " Oh those poor fools having to learn on those ancient Praxis powder skis."

"Bring out yer Lunch trays!.."
post #71 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The op is in Jersey. He's not skiing in 3 feet of powder nor is he likely to buy powder skis.
Jhcooley nailed it.
So what people today on current powder gear are handicapped from people 10 years from now in learning powder? All the current gear will be considered practically barbaric? " Oh those poor fools having to learn on those ancient Praxis powder skis."

"Bring out yer Lunch trays!.."


I don't care if it is six inches. I learned to ski as an adult. I learned to ski powder after that. I remember the frustration. And I vividly remember my first run on Pontoons. It was life changing - and motivated me to look at the design issues in play quite a bit. Feel free to find the roots of the whole rocker and wider debates on this site...

 

The whole "only six inches" or "not 3 feet"  thing is just distraction. If you are talking 6 inches or even a foot  of dry smoke with super low water content, then sure. Because you are skiing right through it. Nothing 3D about it. OTOH, there are plenty of 4-6 inch days where the water content and/or wind deposition makes it almost bottomless in terms of engaging an edge. And by 14 inches - good luck.

 

You guys very likely have a lifetime of hard earned skills. But it is almost masochistic to make someone deal with that learning curve today. I'm a quiver fan. But I also understand some do not need or want - or can not afford - a quiver. Fine. But when someone asks what one thing will make the powder and deep snow learning curve easier (or often just not miserable), there is one answer - appropriate gear. Generally speaking, that means fatter, rocker on both ends, tapered, shortish and shallow side cut length (which generally means a decent amount of surface area underfoot).  Rent or borrow it. (assuming you have boots that fit ;)).

 

Are you really going to tell me you'd tell someone living in powder land who only has uber-wide reverse/reverse skis that they'd best learn to ski ice on those powder skis so they can be more versatile and save the costs and hassle of getting their hands on something more hard snow and carve oriented? I doubt it. But go ahead, shock me...

 

As for what will be considered barbaric in ten years, who knows.The first time I saw Spatulas on a wall I laughed. A couple years later I was talked into trying a pair of Pontoons. I no longer laughed... Things evolve.

post #72 of 89

No, it's "learn to ski properly, and you can use the same skills on any equipment at any time." It might not be the absolute perfect equipment for the day, but most people don't have the option of a quiver, and even when you do have a quiver, sometimes it's at home.

post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 

you can use the same skills on any equipment at any time.

      ^^^^^ This.

 

I use the same fundamentals on the fatties as I do on the carvers.

 

So I don't agree that a different skill set is required for powder. A solid, functional skill set is required. Different DIRT (duration, intensity, rate, timing) is required, which may give some people a lot of trouble, especially when combined with the balance challenges imposed by the lack of a firm surface. But many things are still very similar.

 

Nonetheless, I do agree with spindrift that it is much easier to have fun in powder on modern fat skis than it is on anything fully cambered, simply because they reduce a lot of the balance challenges and they allow considerable steering, among other things. That may mean that people with less skill are chewing up my powder. They're having fun, anyway.

 

Besides, that's why they make trees... :D 

post #74 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
 

Are you really going to tell me you'd tell someone living in powder land who only has uber-wide reverse/reverse skis that they'd best learn to ski ice on those powder skis so they can be more versatile and save the costs and hassle of getting their hands on something more hard snow and carve oriented? I doubt it. But go ahead, shock me...

 

 

No. You're absolutely right about that. Good point. But we're not talking about someone who lives in powder land. We're talking about someone who lives in New Jersey. Have you ever been to New Jersey?

 

Not only that, but among those who DO live within striking distance of regular powder events, I'm guessing it's just like here: Only a tiny fraction of them - obsessed skiers who have managed to organize (or maybe, in some cases, disintigrate) their entire lives around skiing - actually manage to get out there at the right time and in the right place to ski pow on more than 10% of their ski days. Don't think about you and your friends and us nut cases here on Epic. Think about the average jamoke you see on the hill or in the lodge on a very very ordinary Saturday.

post #75 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

 

Not only that, but among those who DO live within striking distance of regular powder events, I'm guessing it's just like here: Only a tiny fraction of them - obsessed skiers who have managed to organize (or maybe, in some cases, disintigrate) their entire lives around skiing - actually manage to get out there at the right time and in the right place to ski pow on more than 10% of their ski days. Don't think about you and your friends and us nut cases here on Epic. Think about the average jamoke you see on the hill or in the lodge on a very very ordinary Saturday.

 

Um, actually, where I ski, the average jamoke I see on the hill or in the lodge on a very very ordinary Saturday is on dedicated powder boards. Which leads to a lot of whining on hard snow days.

 

Surprisingly few of them can ski in the goop we're getting at the moment, though, which is too bad, since those powder boards also work pretty well on soft, wet glop. Solid fundamentals with an adjustment in their DIRT would solve that problem.

 

Many people are so tied to just one type of snow that they are unable to make the subtle adjustments to ski anything else, regardless of their equipment.

post #76 of 89
Quote:
Are you really going to tell me you'd tell someone living in powder land who only has uber-wide reverse/reverse skis that they'd best learn to ski ice on those powder skis so they can be more versatile and save the costs and hassle of getting their hands on something more hard snow and carve oriented? I doubt it. But go ahead, shock me...
Well if they wanted to be uber in say Chamonix absolutely I'd tell them. They could get killed on such a ski in the wrong place. Ie steep chutes, exposed areas where snow encountered at some point is likely to be firm or very icy.

Otherwise, if he showed up on firm groomers with such a ski you have to work with what you have. I'd certainly would mention it just like if it's 3 feet of powder I'd mention going to get a powder ski if it was an issue.

The idea that one needs a dedicated powder ski to ski 6 inches is absurd. I mean it wouldn't be bad because it would feel deeper on such a thing, but people have to go about the rest of the day. Not everyone goes back and switches skis. In the east at a lot of places it's going to be down to firm again after it gets skied off.
post #77 of 89
Fat skis for ice and narrow skis for powder. Or is it......on second thought I'll just use my skills.
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

We're talking about someone who lives in New Jersey. Have you ever been to New Jersey?

 

 

Only on T.V. :)

post #79 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

No. You're absolutely right about that. Good point. But we're not talking about someone who lives in powder land. We're talking about someone who lives in New Jersey. Have you ever been to New Jersey?

 

Not only that, but among those who DO live within striking distance of regular powder events, I'm guessing it's just like here: Only a tiny fraction of them - obsessed skiers who have managed to organize (or maybe, in some cases, disintigrate) their entire lives around skiing - actually manage to get out there at the right time and in the right place to ski pow on more than 10% of their ski days. Don't think about you and your friends and us nut cases here on Epic. Think about the average jamoke you see on the hill or in the lodge on a very very ordinary Saturday.

 

The "average" skier is especially who I am thinking of. 

 

If the OP offered as a premise that they were only interested in using a specific ski - then fine. Although at least make them aware of the trade offs. Seems to me the underlying question - despite the mention of the RTMs - was about how to get out and ski deeper snow competently and have fun ASAP. 

 

I don't think there is a need for everyone  to work as hard as many here did to earn the right to have fun in powder or deep soft snow - or even slush.  Can someone here at least explain why you'd condemn exactly that person who rarely gets a shot at powder, or deep fresh snow of any sort, to never once having a fun day in it? Simply because they never have the requisite time to learn to defeat their hard snow oriented equipment?

 

The notion that one design center is like another is both provably wrong -  as explained by McConkey - and is also self evident to anyone who has spent significant time on both classes of ski.  There are things you can do on ice on a carver that physics just will not allow with a fat reverse/reverse ski. And there are things you can easily do in powder with a reverse/reverse ski that are quite impossible with a carver. Modern "hybrids" split the difference in a rather impressive way IMO (and no - nothing in the 80s really qualifies). 

 

This is truly simple.  The right tool for the job makes life easier. If the OP is still reading...your experience is shared by more people than many would have you believe. Next time consider  just renting some fat powder oriented skis if you can. I suspect you'll be able to have fun almost right out of the gate and will learn tons about balance in powder and deep snow. (and be on equipment that most likely will not demand that hop thing except in the most unusual circumstances)

 

Despite the myth of "it is all the same" - many passable hard snow habits work against you in soft snow.  For most of us, it takes some work to break those habits. If you'd rather use your existing equipment, just be chill and OK with a longer learning curve and a need for a bit more athleticism. Personally, I'm taking the easy road :D

post #80 of 89
No one says not to use the best ski for a condition. But to say it's not all the same to an experienced skier is wrong. There are subtle movements from your strong foundation that make any ski and any condition another day at the office.
post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post

No one says not to use the best ski for a condition. But to say it's not all the same to an experienced skier is wrong. There are subtle movements from your strong foundation that make any ski and any condition another day at the office.


This is like chasing around in circles. The above is just not true. 

 

The realization that it is not true is what motivated McConkey to change the world of skiing. And since then, it has enabled designers to produce modern skis that make a whole lot of skiing easier across a whole lot of conditions. 

 

Again, folks with a robust skill quiver can blend things up to push skis across a set of conditions that range pretty far from their design point. But any notion that those design points do not matter,  or that the same technique (call it blending of skills if you wish) applies equally to all design points is pretty fantastical.

 

Here is my last point on this. One I have made before. Watch these videos. Pay attention to the comments made by Defago (last video) at the end of his run...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Let's see how an Olympian on race skis skis it...

 

 

 

post #82 of 89
This thread delivers on the lulz. Learning to ski powder on a >100mm width ski? Oi.

Most of the skied powder skiers I know rarely carve turns on hard snow. Somehow I don't think the techniques are the same at all.
post #83 of 89
Thread Starter 

Based on everyone's feedback and the attached video's thought out this thread, I received the answer I was looking for - I have to apply a different technique in deeper snow than my traditional "home" snow.  Up until that day where we had 12 inches confirmed snow fall but the mountain appeared/seemed like 14 inches+, I never in my life had the opportunity to ski in those conditions.

 

Since returning to the sport of skiing last year after a 25 year absence, I took lessons, used the appropriate ski equipment for practicing extensively my carving and after about 40 hours I was skiing down hard black diamond slopes at a reasonable speed.  Today, I can confidently ski the entire local area mountains with confidence and upgraded my equipment (2 weeks ago) to help me continue to grow my skills.  That said, the only skiing conditions I have ever spent time on was 70% of my time skiing at night after the groomed slopes melted slightly during the day and refreezing when the sun went down.  This created a nice sheet of ice glaze all over the mountain. The remaining 30% was during the day on over crowded slopes with the kids and this is when I ventured into the trees off the groomers.  So my skiing style under these conditions was heavily favoring hard packed, ice, and crud.  When I applied those skills to fresh 12-14 inch powder for the first time in my life it was a complete disaster, hence why I reached out for assistance.  By the 5th time down, I started figuring out if I made less sharp turns and did hold my feet closer together, the easier it was but still not enjoyable and I had a full body workout - hence why I turned to this forum for help.. Obviously I had no clue what to do.

 

Since that day and based on everyone's feedback I have been practicing skiing on the groomers with feet close together (almost touching) and keeping the skis pointed down hill all the time.  This can be a bit of challenge on the iced over slopes, but heck, my new skies are biting into it better than a leach having it's meal.  Hopefully now with everyone's advice, I'll be able to enjoy it next time.  Thank you all for your feedback.

 

The skies I used that day were Volkl RTM 81.

post #84 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikolbyi View Post
 

 

Since that day and based on everyone's feedback I have been practicing skiing on the groomers with feet close together (almost touching) and keeping the skis pointed down hill all the time.  

As is, no turning at all? I think you misread something.

post #85 of 89
lori-skiing-sepp-mallaun.jpg
Yea, that's not a good thing. Upper body down the fall line, but you can/should turn the skis sideways.
post #86 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


Yea, that's not a good thing. Upper body down the fall line, but you can/should turn the skis sideways.

There was no need, wasn't experiencing excessive speed those days that warranted it except on a few occasions to avoid other skiers. 

post #87 of 89
General people on skinny skis who point their skis straight down hill with feet together are sitting on their tails and steering, which is bad news. Food for thought.
post #88 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

General people on skinny skis who point their skis straight down hill with feet together are sitting on their tails and steering, which is bad news. Food for thought.

 

And I saw a guy on full rockered skis flailing down a very steep bump run Sunday using the only the bottom of the skis boots to tail blocking and back seat the whole way down. It actually looked kind of cool and he was having fun.  Had he tried that Friday when the trail was a lot icier it wouldn't have been any fun at all.

post #89 of 89
Haha. You could make a pretty long list of weird things people do on powder skis. I don't understand how people ski them on rock hard snow, it makes my knees hurt.
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