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Ron Lemaster images

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 

What a great viewpoint.  Really appears to highlight a couple of things I have been struggling to really grip; 1) getting forward, really hurling himself/herself forward immediately;  2) when that outside leg extends.  It basically appears to always be extended.  The skier just appears never have the outside leg flexed.  Very cool shot.  

 

post #2 of 27

This is an oldie but goodie, peterk.

 

And you are pretty correct re: the outside leg.  Length = structural strength.  So the longer and less fully flexed the outside leg, in general, the stronger a position this is to withstand forces.  Also helps with inclination and edge angles...

 

Look at the INSIDE leg too for cues about what really works.  The holy grail at turn apex would be a moderately countered position, outside leg extended, inside leg withdrawn and ankle highly flexed, hips forward, high edge angles, 90+% pressure to outside ski.

post #3 of 27
I was at a presentation by Ron last night in which those images, as well as a video of the same, were used to explain that the skier is extending a more or less unweighted outside leg to achieve a high edge angle that ultimately allows that ski to take over. In other words, she's riding the inside ski initially until the outside ski's high edge angle lets that ski start the carve. He had lots of images of multiple male and female racers all doing essentially the same thing. Ron said he discussed this with some of them and, initially, they were unaware they were actually making that move. The time spent on the inside ski is very minimal but very obvious in the slow motion videos he showed.
post #4 of 27
I wouldn't use that as a good example of skiing. If you look he has horrible inside ski disciplone, his outside leg is extended at the turn transition and is skidding/pivoting. By the end of the turn he's pulled it together, but that's not a great turn. He's loosing time on that one. He does pull it together well though.
Ligety-BC-2012-GS-1A-prt.jpg
A bit smoother.
Edited by clink83 - 2/1/15 at 8:35am
post #5 of 27

A lot of NASTAR hounds have learned to do "outrigger turns".

This is where you support some of your body weight on a fairly flat inside ski while you reach out with the outside ski until you get enough edge angle to hook up and carve.

All while in a high tuck.

This is most used early in the course when you don't have enough speed to really carve a nice turn.

NASTAR is its own discipline.

The above sequence has an '"outrigger turn" aspect to my eye where the racer is hedging his bets while he searches for edge.

post #6 of 27

There are many more great pictures in his book "Ultimate Skiing".  I got my copy from Amazon for about $ 14, including shipping.  Much valuable information in it. 

post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

...those images, as well as a video of the same, were used to explain that the skier is extending a more or less unweighted outside leg to achieve a high edge angle that ultimately allows that ski to take over. In other words, she's riding the inside ski initially until the outside ski's high edge angle lets that ski start the carve. ...

 

I've maintained that pressure transfer is variable, and getting pressure to the outside ski is a result of many aspects within the turn and shouldn't be the goal in and of itself. One of the highlights of this illustration is how pressure come to the skier and skis by way of momentum and centripetal force.  

post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

 

I've maintained that pressure transfer is variable, and getting pressure to the outside ski is a result of many aspects within the turn and shouldn't be the goal in and of itself. One of the highlights of this illustration is how pressure come to the skier and skis by way of momentum and centripetal force.  

If only more folks would understand this simple concept!     Also as JF say's  "The edging happens as a RESULT of the inside leg getting shorter"

post #9 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

I wouldn't use that as a good example of skiing. If you look he has horrible inside ski disciplone, his outside leg is extended at the turn transition and is skidding/pivoting. By the end of the turn he's pulled it together, but that's not a great turn. He's loosing time on that one. He does pull it together well though.
Ligety-BC-2012-GS-1A-prt.jpg
A bit smoother.

She won that race. The images Ron used last night mostly were of top consistent World Cup winners who all spent a part of turn transitions on the inside ski with the outside, mostly unweighted, ski diverging onto a high edge angle before the transfer/carve began.
post #10 of 27
 
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

She won that race. The images Ron used last night mostly were of top consistent World Cup winners who all spent a part of turn transitions on the inside ski with the outside, mostly unweighted, ski diverging onto a high edge angle before the transfer/carve began.

 

Hmm, sounds familiar.   ;-)

 

Out of curiosity what was the event you attended? Was it a PSIA cert thingee? Open to the public? Advertised ahead of time anywhere?

post #11 of 27
It was a Breck Ski&Ride event. Ron is paid by Vail Resorts, as is Ellen Post Foster, to help our training programs.
post #12 of 27

Nice. Envy you, getting to take advantage of that.

 

Thx for sharing.  ;-)

post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


The images Ron used last night mostly were of top consistent World Cup winners who all spent a part of turn transitions on the inside ski with the outside, mostly unweighted, ski diverging onto a high edge angle before the transfer/carve began.

 

Help me understand: all else being equal, I thought that early engagement of the outside ski, to the point that you start to transfer weight to it while it's still the "inside ski" of the old turn, helps create grip and shape the next turn?

post #14 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

I wouldn't use that as a good example of skiing. If you look he has horrible inside ski disciplone, his outside leg is extended at the turn transition and is skidding/pivoting. By the end of the turn he's pulled it together, but that's not a great turn. He's loosing time on that one. He does pull it together well though.

A bit smoother.

 

I noticed the weirdness with the inside leg.  You are right though, great recovery in the end.  The angle of the photo really has helped me understand what you guys have been saying about getting forward.  The skier in the sequence almost looks to leap forward.  

post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

Help me understand: all else being equal, I thought that early engagement of the outside ski, to the point that you start to transfer weight to it while it's still the "inside ski" of the old turn, helps create grip and shape the next turn?

My understanding (note that I am NOT any kind of racer) is that at the speeds of these racers, a direct move to the new outside ski at that point in the course (relative to the gate) would result in a skid instead of a carve because the high edge angle required for a carve would not be there. The alternative to the tight turn achieved would be a wider, longer (and slower) path.
post #16 of 27
If a few WC-ers do this in a similar whatever specific situation, would y'all start skiing like that, every turn?



You seem to be talking about the ancient technique of "stepping" the turn to get a higher line and a bit more time...? That's how the racers skied in the time of the Warren W.... his book by the same name is clear on that, if the old videos are not.

@Metaphor_ that is correct and creates grip to the extent to which you are already balanced on the new outside ski earlier, meaning you have more options and have a "platform" sooner as opposed to... not having it. It makes for a smoother and faster transition and it's how most high level racers ski when they're not out of balance or coping with weird delays or corridors like the first photo seems to represent.

Go back to the famous Ted NY video and listen to him talk about "almost stepping"... he knows what that is but nowadays stepping is considered mostly a technical mistake.... except when you need it biggrin.gif

I always have a smirk on my face when reading about Ron (great guy with a lot of great work otherwise) explaining to WC racers how they ski, which not only themselves, but their coaches and fellow racers seem to not have a clue about... Even with the ton of daily slow motion video analysis that they do... sorry, probably very mean but I'm still smiling....

@peterk123 you should disregard that photo. I never use photos that do not represent an average situation, because recoveries and screwy tactics are not what I am looking for, but solid fundamental technique which is not what you get when they're out of balance or pushing it or dealing with terrain or whatever..... WC racers do whatever it takes to make the next gate...
Edited by razie - 2/1/15 at 7:37pm
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

My understanding (note that I am NOT any kind of racer) is that at the speeds of these racers, a direct move to the new outside ski at that point in the course (relative to the gate) would result in a skid instead of a carve because the high edge angle required for a carve would not be there. The alternative to the tight turn achieved would be a wider, longer (and slower) path.

You don't need to carve as soon as you establish a "platform" it's just there.... The ski in fact turns even with little pressure, once it's put on edge - check how little it takes to reverse camber a ski. Cranking it up, which is what the notion of "carving" usually implies is a different thing altogether and if you look carefully at the snow spray and ski bend in the average (great) WC montages from Ron, you will see how little that usually occurs, out of the time of an entire turn.

In fact, you bring up a good point: the inability to create big angles quickly is directly related to the standing up in the first ohoto of this thread and it is why Ted is rarely caught standing up with both legs extended in transition.

Cheers
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

She won that race. The images Ron used last night mostly were of top consistent World Cup winners who all spent a part of turn transitions on the inside ski with the outside, mostly unweighted, ski diverging onto a high edge angle before the transfer/carve began.
She might of won, but that was still a bad turn. In frame 1-3 her outside ski was all over the place, when by that point that ski should have been on edge and carving like liggity does. Its not good to be halfway through a turn with a straight outside ski! She was doomed in frame 1 by standing up straight.

If I could only skis well as I look at photos of racers skiing:)
Edited by clink83 - 2/1/15 at 9:33pm
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

If I could only skis well as I look at photos of racers skiing:)

 

Thank you for adding that. First.  ;-)

 

Assuming you're in your armchair what'd you think of that pass play at the end of the Super Bowl?

post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

She might of won, but that was still a bad turn. In frame 1-3 her outside ski was all over the place, when by that point that ski should have been on edge and carving like liggity does. Its not good to be halfway through a turn with a straight outside ski! She was doomed in frame 1 by standing up straight.

If I could only skis well as I look at photos of racers skiing:)

Had she weighted the outside ski in frames 1-2, she would have passed the gate on the wrong side unless she did a stivot, which would have been slower. This gate was pointed out as one of the places in the course where she gained speed on the other ladies because of how tight her line was.
post #21 of 27

Yeah - possibly - I don't honestly understand what she's doing there, I mean she's hurling her body to the gate, but not why... I don't even understand the angle of the photo or the gate layout...

 

Anyways, for analyzing the stuff @peterk123  was looking for, this photo below is much more clear: both about when to get forward, how to get forward, when she's on the new ski, how long she waits to pressure it, even stance if you care about that, how the vertical separation is created etc - this is everything you need to know about how GS should be skied, i.e. "technical norm" - there's not much to argue or not to like here :

 

 

cheers,

raz


Edited by razie - 2/2/15 at 11:24am
post #22 of 27
Looked like more inside ski turn than outside ski. That takes some leg strength.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Had she weighted the outside ski in frames 1-2, she would have passed the gate on the wrong side unless she did a stivot, which would have been slower. This gate was pointed out as one of the places in the course where she gained speed on the other ladies because of how tight her line was.
I don't buy that explanation at all.She had to ski like that because she was standing up! A pro skier would have already been Bending the outside ski in the first frameframe.
Being faster than others doesn't mean its the fastest line. I've won 10ks with a 7:30/mile pace.
post #24 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

Yeah - possibly - I don't honestly understand what she's doing there, I mean she's hurling her body to the gate, but not why... I don't even understand the angle of the photo or the gate layout...

 

Anyways, for analyzing the stuff @peterk123  was looking for, this photo below is much more clear: both about when to get forward, how to get forward, when she's on the new ski, how long she waits to pressure it, even stance if you care about that, how the vertical separation is created etc - this is everything you need to know about how GS should be skied, i.e. "technical norm" - there's not much to argue or not to like here :

 

 

cheers,

raz

yup, that one works.  These shots from behind really help to visually understand.  I like this one.  Thx.

post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


She might of won, but that was still a bad turn. In frame 1-3 her outside ski was all over the place, when by that point that ski should have been on edge and carving like liggity does. Its not good to be halfway through a turn with a straight outside ski!

 

This is all top notch stuff. I'm not

Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

I don't buy that explanation at all.She had to ski like that because she was standing up! A pro skier would have already been Bending the outside ski in the first frameframe.
Being faster than others doesn't mean its the fastest line. I've won 10ks with a 7:30/mile pace.

Just curious, but I don't see the connection between a 10k and alpine ski racing. I've always thought they were more like a 400 or 800m sprint where fast is fast and slow is slow.
post #26 of 27
Well, a 7:30/mile pace for a 10k is fast for a recreational runner, but it wouldn't normally win. I was just the fastest in my age group that day:)
post #27 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterk123 View Post
 

yup, that one works.  These shots from behind really help to visually understand.  I like this one.  Thx.

Indeed - striking photo montage - I started taking notes as to what I personally see there: http://www.askicoach.com/wiki/Razie_Ski_Blog/The_techniques_of_the_Giant_Slalom_turn but it's so much nore on display there that I am working on part 2 and 3 of that... and that's just fundamentals, not even talking options, choices or tactics yet :)

 

cheers

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