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Moguls: Transitioning from Zipper Line to "Regular" Mogul Skiing

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

So I'm an ex-freestyle skier that competed in moguls in the 80s and early 90s. So, my brain gets stuck on the zipper line mentality of mogul skiing (or the variation of it from back then). Now, due to a variety of factors (age, conditioning, decade absence from the sport, ACL reconstruction), I need a softer style of mogul skiing that's a little easier on the body. Part of my problem is fear--I blew my knee while compressing a mogul. So, I need a new approach to my mogul skiing besides skiing 6 bumps and stopping or avoiding them all together.

 

I've read through a variety of threads so my head is spinning a bit with lots of different exciting and informative tips--but it's too much to focus on at once so I want to narrow the question.

 

What are the primary two or three things to focus on when transitioning your style from zipper to line to "regular" mogul skiing? For me, the "regular" style would be a less aggressive style that is softer on the joints that would get me through any large irregular-shaped moguls I may encounter.

 

My mind still has the vision of today's World Cup moguls etched in my memory. I need a new vision which isn't just on small hero moguls.

 

A side notes:

  • If it makes a difference, I only started skiing on shaped skis a couple of years ago
  • The DiPiro book is on the way

 

Thanks in advance!

post #2 of 14
Nice small topic.
I think the simplest way to get started is to look for well spaced bumps. Then come at the moguls from the side. Now there's more options. You can stay out of the troughs.
Consider turning so that the turn brings you across the hill or even uphill a bit to the next bump.
I think Weems's video has a good range of examples including a few of skiing almost uphill to the next bump. Also there's styles in there you are seeking to avoid.

From Brilliant Skiing:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t9aMM01mkqs

The woman at around 23 secs is what I'm talking about and theres some later.
Edited by Tog - 1/20/15 at 8:56pm
post #3 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx2ski View Post
 

So I'm an ex-freestyle skier that competed in moguls in the 80s and early 90s. So, my brain gets stuck on the zipper line mentality of mogul skiing (or the variation of it from back then). Now, due to a variety of factors (age, conditioning, decade absence from the sport, ACL reconstruction), I need a softer style of mogul skiing that's a little easier on the body. Part of my problem is fear--I blew my knee while compressing a mogul. So, I need a new approach to my mogul skiing besides skiing 6 bumps and stopping or avoiding them all together.

 

I've read through a variety of threads so my head is spinning a bit with lots of different exciting and informative tips--but it's too much to focus on at once so I want to narrow the question.

 

What are the primary two or three things to focus on when transitioning your style from zipper to line to "regular" mogul skiing? For me, the "regular" style would be a less aggressive style that is softer on the joints that would get me through any large irregular-shaped moguls I may encounter.

 

My mind still has the vision of today's World Cup moguls etched in my memory. I need a new vision which isn't just on small hero moguls.

 

A side notes:

  • If it makes a difference, I only started skiing on shaped skis a couple of years ago
  • The DiPiro book is on the way

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I do *not* have an answer. I *do* know that instructor Kevin O'Handley at Breck was a pro mogul skier wayyyyyyyy back in the day, but he teaches a very accessible (to the non bump skier) way of skiing the bumps. He may have some good insight into how to transition. He's at the lesson club lineup pretty much every day it's available. I seem to recall you are in that program - have you gone yet?

post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bounceswoosh View Post
 

 

I do *not* have an answer. I *do* know that instructor Kevin O'Handley at Breck was a pro mogul skier wayyyyyyyy back in the day, but he teaches a very accessible (to the non bump skier) way of skiing the bumps. He may have some good insight into how to transition. He's at the lesson club lineup pretty much every day it's available. I seem to recall you are in that program - have you gone yet?

 

This Saturday will be my first day with the lesson club. Thanks for the tip.

 

Reading all the other posts makes me want to forget most of what I know and start over, but he may help me transition easier.

post #5 of 14

Good for you RX, it's never to late to learn how to gain speed control in natural terrain with technique as opposed to skidding, slamming and pounding and allowing the terrain in front of you control where you turn, when you turn and the timing of your turn finish.

 

The key tool is the Quick Carved Turn (QCT) or as some others describe, extremely quick brushed carved turns.  Learn to link'm on the edge of the steepest groomed you can find.  You are trying to make them as round as you can while floating weightlessly through transition and at the top of the nest turn by generating a lot of energy at the previous turn finish.

 

The key technique is to ski what I call the technical lIne, not the zipperline.  I call it the technical line because you can't pivot/skid down it (the perfected intermediate technique the majority of WC bump skiers use), you ski it with the same technically sound QCT's you learn on the groomed, round and smooth.

 

Skiing the technical line has a HUGE advantage, there is consistently enough space to complete a round turn (get the skis perpendicular to the fall line)  and it is at the turn finish of the QCT where the speed is controlled or dumped with a firm edge set combined with brushing the tails.

 

When skiing the technical line, the skier can turn at will and never has to "wait" to slam into the bottom of the bump to finish the turn and absorb the pounding to gain speed control.

 

Think of the technical line as the fall line 1/2 way between 2 naturally formed zipperlines.  You'll be skiing into and over the moguls and down the backside of the mogul as opposed to skiing "around" the moguls tracing the rut line on each side of the mogul.

 

This is why the technical line is considered "mogul" skiing by those that can hold it, again you ski into and over the mogul as opposed to zipperline skiing (bump skiing) where the skier focus's on avoiding the mogul by skiing around them consistently.

 

To ski the technical line, the skier turns into the mogul face and links a turn or possibly 2 turns on the top of the mogul and down the backside followed by another turn into/thru and over the next mogul face.

 

The backside turn is really where most speed control is gained as it usually holds the best snow on the slope.  It's large and smooth and often loaded with the soft scraped snow sprayed or pushed up by the majority of skiers that are confined to the zipperline.

 

Turning into/thru and over the mogul face is very smooth as the shovels absorb the sometimes abrupt terrain change, but it is not effortless. You will experience a pressure buildup and you must learn to handle this load as it is greatest as your ski tips reach the top of the mogul face at the turn finish.

 

Just like when making QCT's (do a search for it here for in depth descriptions) on the groomed, you extended (open) your knees into the turn finish, you finish you turn into the mogul face by extending (open your knees to push your feet slightly forward),  just as your ski tips reach the top of the mogul face you strike your pole plant.  This marks the end of the turn.  Now as you crest the top of the mogul face, the end of the turn, immediately pull BOTH your feet back under you (retract) by closing your knees and opening your ankles.

 

You will be floating weightless, just as you are on the groomed when making QCT's, when you pull your feet back under your body and open your ankles, your ski shovels will be forced back onto the snow down the backside of the mogul and you will be able to ride your shovel edges weightlessly thru the top of the next turn down the smooth backside.  Again, the finish of the backside turn is where you can easily gain the most speed control, you must take advantage of this turn by completing it. Let your tails brush the snow as they trend towards perpendicular to the fall line and the edge set at the turn finish.

 

This is the basic idea of technical line skiing, gaining speed control by completing your turns and turning on most often the best snow on the slope.

 

Don't start by turning into the largest moguls you can find, start by looking for and turning into/thru any "pile"of soft snow you find, whether it's on the groomed or in the crud after a powder morning.  Focus on turning directly into these piles and avoid sliding into them or deflecting off of them.  You want to ski into and thru these piles of small bumps you find.  You will not only learn how to handle the pressure build up experienced when turning into a pile, you most importantly will learn how to immediately retract (pull you feet back under you) to get your shovels back on the snow to initiate your next turn.

 

FWIW, I'm 53 and have been skiing moguls for 35 years.  I pounded the zipperline for the first several seasons until I learned how to ski natural terrain.

 

Look closely at the turns from 54 - 60 sec for a very clear example of what I'm trying to describe.

 

 

Hope this helps you discover a "new" way of mogul skiing void of pounding and slamming for speed control.

 

Nail

post #6 of 14

RX,  here's a quick look at the QCT.

 

post #7 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Nice small topic.
I think the simplest way to get started is to look for well spaced bumps. Then come at the moguls from the side. Now there's more options. You can stay out of the troughs.
Consider turning so that the turn brings you across the hill or even uphill a bit to the next bump.
I think Weems's video has a good range of examples including a few of skiing almost uphill to the next bump. Also there's styles in there you are seeking to avoid.

From Brilliant Skiing:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t9aMM01mkqs

The woman at around 23 secs is what I'm talking about and theres some later.

 

I watched that first without looking at the time and that was the first run that stuck out to me as a model of what I feel I could handle at this time.

 

Thanks,

Karen

post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 

@Nailbender, thank you so much for your input. In skiing or life, I'm always up to learning something new. I'm from the Donna Weinbrecht era, so thankfully we didn't have cookie cutter moguls at that time.

 

QCT sounds right in line with what I need for a visual. (Need to put the new 170 Volkl Auras back on the rack for a bit since they're my new speedy skis.) To me, QCT is coming back to the drills I grew up on and loved. (Ironically, my face plant pre-release occurred while doing something similar on Monday. :rotflmao: )

 

One of the things I really enjoy about doing short radius turns on the steeps is being able to carve the turn in such a manner that the energy generated from one turn naturally propels me into the next--so I think I'm on the right track there. Now it's a matter of seeing the technical line and applying the principles. Sounds so easy, not!

 

What part of the mogul should I plant my pole?

 

FYI, I just turned 47 and pounded moguls from about 12-21 until other priorities (i.e graduate school) became my focus.

 

Edit: Just found a line/turn shopping thread but that will need to wait until tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the videos also.

Karen

post #9 of 14

Hi, Nail nailed it in his postings above explaining line selection and QCT's. Thats the key to mastering the technical line and to stay out of the rutts. Check out the thread on line selection a couple of years ago.

 

Here is annother way to expand your mogul skiing. My suggestion for you would be to spend some time on a groomer skiing basic parallel turns with different turn radius and shape and then take that stuff back with you into the bumps. Stuff like arm position and the way you need to create momentum for your turns when there is no mogul to do the job for you. Other stuff too. Thats my approach anyway.

 

T

post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
 

Good for you RX, it's never to late to learn how to gain speed control in natural terrain with technique as opposed to skidding, slamming and pounding and allowing the terrain in front of you control where you turn, when you turn and the timing of your turn finish.

 

The key tool is the Quick Carved Turn (QCT) or as some others describe, extremely quick brushed carved turns.  Learn to link'm on the edge of the steepest groomed you can find.  You are trying to make them as round as you can while floating weightlessly through transition and at the top of the nest turn by generating a lot of energy at the previous turn finish.

 

The key technique is to ski what I call the technical lIne, not the zipperline.  I call it the technical line because you can't pivot/skid down it (the perfected intermediate technique the majority of WC bump skiers use), you ski it with the same technically sound QCT's you learn on the groomed, round and smooth.

 

Skiing the technical line has a HUGE advantage, there is consistently enough space to complete a round turn (get the skis perpendicular to the fall line)  and it is at the turn finish of the QCT where the speed is controlled or dumped with a firm edge set combined with brushing the tails.

 

When skiing the technical line, the skier can turn at will and never has to "wait" to slam into the bottom of the bump to finish the turn and absorb the pounding to gain speed control.

 

Think of the technical line as the fall line 1/2 way between 2 naturally formed zipperlines.  You'll be skiing into and over the moguls and down the backside of the mogul as opposed to skiing "around" the moguls tracing the rut line on each side of the mogul.

 

This is why the technical line is considered "mogul" skiing by those that can hold it, again you ski into and over the mogul as opposed to zipperline skiing (bump skiing) where the skier focus's on avoiding the mogul by skiing around them consistently.

 

To ski the technical line, the skier turns into the mogul face and links a turn or possibly 2 turns on the top of the mogul and down the backside followed by another turn into/thru and over the next mogul face.

 

The backside turn is really where most speed control is gained as it usually holds the best snow on the slope.  It's large and smooth and often loaded with the soft scraped snow sprayed or pushed up by the majority of skiers that are confined to the zipperline.

 

Turning into/thru and over the mogul face is very smooth as the shovels absorb the sometimes abrupt terrain change, but it is not effortless. You will experience a pressure buildup and you must learn to handle this load as it is greatest as your ski tips reach the top of the mogul face at the turn finish.

 

Just like when making QCT's (do a search for it here for in depth descriptions) on the groomed, you extended (open) your knees into the turn finish, you finish you turn into the mogul face by extending (open your knees to push your feet slightly forward),  just as your ski tips reach the top of the mogul face you strike your pole plant.  This marks the end of the turn.  Now as you crest the top of the mogul face, the end of the turn, immediately pull BOTH your feet back under you (retract) by closing your knees and opening your ankles.

 

You will be floating weightless, just as you are on the groomed when making QCT's, when you pull your feet back under your body and open your ankles, your ski shovels will be forced back onto the snow down the backside of the mogul and you will be able to ride your shovel edges weightlessly thru the top of the next turn down the smooth backside.  Again, the finish of the backside turn is where you can easily gain the most speed control, you must take advantage of this turn by completing it. Let your tails brush the snow as they trend towards perpendicular to the fall line and the edge set at the turn finish.

 

This is the basic idea of technical line skiing, gaining speed control by completing your turns and turning on most often the best snow on the slope.

 

Don't start by turning into the largest moguls you can find, start by looking for and turning into/thru any "pile"of soft snow you find, whether it's on the groomed or in the crud after a powder morning.  Focus on turning directly into these piles and avoid sliding into them or deflecting off of them.  You want to ski into and thru these piles of small bumps you find.  You will not only learn how to handle the pressure build up experienced when turning into a pile, you most importantly will learn how to immediately retract (pull you feet back under you) to get your shovels back on the snow to initiate your next turn.

 

FWIW, I'm 53 and have been skiing moguls for 35 years.  I pounded the zipperline for the first several seasons until I learned how to ski natural terrain.

 

Look closely at the turns from 54 - 60 sec for a very clear example of what I'm trying to describe.

 

 

Hope this helps you discover a "new" way of mogul skiing void of pounding and slamming for speed control.

 

Nail


Hey Nail, thanks for the useful information and thanks to Karen to starting the thread; I have a question:

 

If trying to employ this tactic you describe above, is there a use for the rub+release (sorry, I don't know how else to put it, maybe a slideslip at the top of the bump just before the transition?) and if so, where/when? Is it where you say "Let your tails brush the snow as they trend towards perpendicular to the fall line and the edge set at the turn finish"?

 

I was taught to practice by turning onto a bump and doing two or three slideslip edge sets on the top of the bump before turning again as a drill, not sure if that makes sense but hopefully. Is this practicing a different tactic that will eventually land you into the troughs and going down the zipper until run out or bail out? Would one maybe put in a little skid as the ski tips are starting to go up the mogul, right at the transition?

 

How well do these drills work to improve and work towards what you are describing;

 

Outside ski carving?

Whirlybird?

Slideslip + edgeset?

Pivotslip?

Foot Shuffle?

Whiteside?

Park and Ride (not sure, but, just carving by tipping only)?

 

Hope all that makes sense, I've been trying to improve bumps but there is so much info. I just took a lesson and Im now confused about what's even being taught. Maybe one is supposed to just have as many tactics as possible and just use them whenever conditions suit but I'm nowhere close to that. Hope this isn't a hijack, just trying to get some more info on what was already described here.

 

Thanks!

post #11 of 14

As somebody who still enjoys a zipperline every now and then, but who typically relies upon more shaped turns in bumps, I'll give a couple very short pieces of advice. 

 

My first piece of advice, ski around the troughs and not into them. As you leave the last mogul, spot the next trough, and let your skis go around the top of it, turn your skis around it, and contact the next mogul halfway up its face, not at the base of the trough. 

 

Related to that, let your skis run across the face of the mogul, rather than slipping into it and absorbing on it. There's always going to be some absorption in mogul skiing, but if your skis are sliding forward during this absorption, it is not as abrupt. 

 

My next tip might sound sacrilege, but hear me out- Its okay to let your shoulders move up and down a bit. You're not being scored anymore. Now, I still advocate a quiet upper body. But if you're getting a little more extension before a mogul so you have more range to absorb... no big deal. There's a long way between letting your upper body get bounced around all over and the dead silence of the shoulders in competitive moguls. Explore that gray area, and your knees with thank you. 

 

Final tip- Ski a wider line. Zipperline is all about creating the straightest line possible through the bumps. Skiing moguls more relaxed, you can let your skis run across the bumps more, not always down them. 

post #12 of 14


Hi Karen,

 

Again, welcome the the lesson club. I hope you enjoy it.

 

In my experience all of the instructors that you will likely ski with will be advocates of a round soft line through bunps. It should be a natural outcome of all of the work you will do with them.

post #13 of 14

RX, glad you are open to the technique I'm advocating and willing to "rethink" things and give it a try.


 

Quote:

RX wrote:

One of the things I really enjoy about doing short radius turns on the steeps is being able to carve the turn in such a manner that the energy generated from one turn naturally propels me into the next--so I think I'm on the right track there. Now it's a matter of seeing the technical line and applying the principles. Sounds so easy, not!

 

Yes, you are on the right track!  Generating and harnessing energy at the turn finish on the groomed is one of the things you're after when making QCT's.  To generate this energy on the groomed, drive the inside foot down and forward while on edge at the turn finish while simultaneously striking the pole plant, executing a hard edge set in this manner at the turn finish will propel you into a weightless transition as you float into the next turn.  Remember to immediately retract both feet as you start to pop into float.

 

In the moguls, the hard edge set at the turn finish is the same, but instead of generating energy you will actually be dumping or harnessing the energy since the increased pitch provides all and more of the energy needed to pop and float into transition.  The feeling of loading the energy at the turn finish is almost exactly the same in the bumps and groomed, it's just that it's a lot of work as you have to generate it on the less steep groomed. 

 

@HooDooThere-  the turn finish is where the tails slide or brush to dump speed.  Above where I talk about driving the inside foot/heel down and forward abruptly at the turn finish, you can delay this move at the bottom of the turn before you finish the turn with a crisp pole plant. Hang in the turn slightly longer as your  skis come across the fall line and slowly start to drive the inside foot down and forward while simultaneously squatting slightly or sitting into the actual turn finish.  When you do this you will extend the amount of time your tails are brushing the snow, thus dumping more speed and energy.

Hanging in the turn and brushing really only happens during the backside turn on the big white area of the mogul backside (see below), the turn into the mogul face or pile will have some brushing naturally, but you can't really delay the turn finish or slide into it because when your turn must end when your feet crest the top of the mogul face.  You are actually finishing your turn powerfully into the mogul face and as your feet crest the top of the mogul face, you should immediately retract to get you ski shovels back on the snow. 

 

 

 

Here it is at the 60 second mark of the video above.  Notice how my ski shovels are fully engaged and carving  while my tails are brushing as they slide into the fall line.  Also notice how my inside foot is driving down and forward into the turn finish, I'm about to strike the pole plant and end this turn.  I've re-centered myself in this turn and have dumped enough speed to set myself up for the next several turns.  When you watch the video from this point on. look to see how I turn into any small pile or mogul.


 

Quote:

RX wrote:

What part of the mogul should I plant my pole?

 

 

I don't think about where I plant my poles, but I do reach down the hill and strike them with a "flick" or "snap" of the wrist.

 

I guess when turning into the mogul face, your pole plant will be just beyond the top of the face.  On the backside turn (or turns, if it is large enough) will be you same pole plant as on the groomed.


 

Quote:

HooDooThere wrote:

I was taught to practice by turning onto a bump and doing two or three slideslip edge sets on the top of the bump before turning again as a drill

 

I would put a slightly different twist on this drill.

 

Turn into the mogul face or pile and instead of initiating your next turn down the backside with shovel edge pressure, pivot while weightless into a firm edgeset and almost come to a stop.  Turn into the next mogul face or pile and repeat or possibly do another hop and pivot to an egdeset and turn the opposite direction into the next mogul face or pile.

 

You have to turn directly into the mogul face with your shovels, you can't skid up a mogul face, you will stop abruptly.

 

Remember, do not start practicing this on the steepest/biggest moguls you can find until you learn how to handle the load you generate when turning into the mogul face.  There is NOTHING below you except the smooth backside until you reach the next mogul face below you which is a loooong way down.  You must stick the backside turn and gain speed control.  Start small and hopefully soft until you get the feel for what is going to happen.


 

Quote:

HooDooThere wrote:

 

Outside ski carving?  

Whirlybird?

Slideslip + edgeset?

Pivotslip?

Foot Shuffle?

Whiteside?

Park and Ride (not sure, but, just carving by tipping only)?

 

You initiate and hook up your QCT with shovel edge pressure, so any carving practice is a good thing.  The QCT is not a pivot, it is a very round turn with a firm edge set facilitated by the inside foot drive timed with the pole plant at the turn finish.

 

When practicing QCT's, try speeding them up by doing the "turn, turn, cha, cha, cha" drill.  the cha,cha,cha part are three very quick turns which means you must make 3 very quick pole plants.

 

Hands down IMO, the best drill is to just practice QCT's on the groomed and focus on turning into any pile you find because this is the exact same turn you will be making in natural terrain.  Learning how to generate enough energy at the turn finish which will propel you weightlessly through transition thru the top 1/3 of the turn is the goal while learning how to regain shovel edge pressure while floating.

 

Another big positive for skiing the technical line, the skier can stop with any backside turn without any pounding or slamming if skiing in control.  If you do reach critical mass and can't shut it down, I recommend bailing in a high speed traverse as you would skiing any other line in natural terrain.

 

Here are the kids QCT's. 

 

 

Here is the SV Freestyle coach, doing it.  Towards the end is a great section viewed from behind where you can clearly see the technical line between the 2 rutlines and the turn into the mogul face. You do not have to carry this much speed, he is skiing very fast, but you can.

 

 

Here's another video of mine, there are a few good sections in this one.  If the snow is deep enough (8+) you can ski directly from mogul face to mogul face and skip the backside turn. If is very smooth, but very fast.

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

Nail


Edited by Nailbender - 1/21/15 at 9:24pm
post #14 of 14
Quote:

HooDooThere wrote:

Hope all that makes sense, I've been trying to improve bumps but there is so much info. I just took a lesson and Im now confused about what's even being taught. Maybe one is supposed to just have as many tactics as possible and just use them whenever conditions suit but I'm nowhere close to that. Hope this isn't a hijack, just trying to get some more info on what was already described here.

 

HDT, there is no doubt a "bag of tricks" is a good thing to have developed and be exposed to.

 

There is no silver bullet, as developing the skillset to become a solid skier takes focused work and effort.  It's still fun though!

 

I will say this, there are very few skiers out there that even know there is a technical line yet alone skiers that can ski it or instructors that can teach it.

 

There volumes of text and video instruction on how to ski the zipperline, but ultimately the only way to gain speed control in the rut line is to either skid or pound, just look at the ridiculous slam session  WC mogul skiing has devolved to.

 

Even using the QCT down the zipperline, and there are a few on the WC circuit that use it (some French and the Japanese girls) and are able to deflect off the mogul side wall about 18" up from the bottom of the rut, they are very limited in the speed control they can gain without slamming at some point if they gain to much speed.  The reason is there is simply not enough space to complete a brushed carved turn down a typical zipperline, the tails hit the mogul sidewall preventing the skis from getting towards perpendicular to the fall line.

 

IMO, if you focus learning how to really ski and using the ski to do what it is designed to do (turning) by developing a solid QCT and stop looking for zipperlines and just start learning how to turn on or into the terrain below you, you will be well rewarded.  The QCT works in every condition and terrain I've skied up to about 40+ degrees.  In super steep terrain, the hop turn is probably the most reliable technique to make it to the bottom.

 

It is very easy to get sucked down into the zipperline when skiing natural terrain, I would say it's inevitable, but using the QCT, it is possible to "climb" out of it back to the technical line in several turns.  This is very important to understand, if you get into it, you are not at it's mercy, you can turn out of it, even when carrying a lot of speed.

 

I'm advocating an alternative technique that allows the skier to hold a pure fall line down virtually any terrain while carrying speed, yet having the ability to smoothly gain speed control.   If you don't have the skills to carry speed, the technique will still work at very low speeds.  If you don't have the skills to hold the technical line at low speeds, the concept and QCT will still give you great tools to use when "shopping" for turns and skiing a very broad fall line.  You can't go wrong,

 

Nail


Edited by Nailbender - 1/21/15 at 11:16pm
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