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Bars on chairlifts - Page 10

Poll Results: should the bar be up or down

 
  • 22% (30)
    UP
  • 77% (101)
    DOWN
131 Total Votes  
post #271 of 287

Soooo,  kinda surprised no one has asked the obvious question....

 

Is "Stephanie" the Vanguard of the new MTN planted posters here to sanitize and make family friendly and change the overall tone of the site.....   just saying, first posts and all.....:popcorn

post #272 of 287
I doubt it. I get the sense (could be wrong) that this poster is European. Don't they have a lot of automatic bars on the chairs over there?
post #273 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
 

 

 - Safety means more people/family in ski resorts, as watching Youtube Videos of Accident with Chairlift at least stop me to visit ski resorts with my children. Its simple is to unsafe, especially if your child has more energy or attention disorders (Adhd/add is hard to recognize at this young age) and could proven very dangerous for children. 



Its 2015. Time to stop this dreadful accidents and think about safety for ones. 
 

Top trolling complete with requisite spelling.  Applause

post #274 of 287

I have no intention of reading this entire thread, but as someone who skied with little kids for a few years, I can't imagine putting them on chairs without bars. Having said that, I'm sure that if we skied somewhere without bars they'd have learned what to do.

I'm not really that interested in the argument over whether it's better to have a safety bar or not. I think it probably is, but whatever. What fascinates me about threads like this is there is always someone who'll say he refuses to use a bar (or wear a seat belt, whatever), 'cause it, like, infringes on his personal liberty or something. I love that. 

post #275 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
 

Is there ANY reasons at all for Safety bars on Chairlifts to not be DOWN?


I propose a safety concern at chairlifts like in amusement parks. When the bars is down it should be locked in current position until you reach end station. The only ones
who can open/close the safety bars should be authorized ski resort employees. When you also is placed in the lift, it should be like in amusement park.. meaning the lift sinks into your body as much as you can't slip through it. 

What would happen if more safety procedures was introduced in ski resorts?
 - Getting off/on Chair lifts would be a slower process. But allow safer travel and thats the important one. 
 - Children under the age of 10 wouldn't be able to slip through the chairlifts. Which is considered the major cause of injury at ski resorts.

 - Safety means more people/family in ski resorts, as watching Youtube Videos of Accident with Chairlift at least stop me to visit ski resorts with my children. Its simple is to unsafe, especially if your child has more energy or attention disorders (Adhd/add is hard to recognize at this young age) and could proven very dangerous for children. 

So what I consider is, 
Ski Resort Chair Lifts where the safety bars stays down during travel over dangerous heights. Either by automatic system or a lock where only ski employees has the key.
Chair Lifts should have safety-hoops similar to amusement parks that tightly wraps around your body. You can still move your arms but can't "MOVE* your body.

Its 2015. Time to stop this dreadful accidents and think about safety for ones. 
 

 

Simple solution for you is... go to the mountains that have fully enclosed gondolas and only ski those trails that are accessible by gondola.

post #276 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 

 

Simple solution for you is... go to the mountains that have fully enclosed gondolas and only ski those trails that are accessible by gondola.

Careful what you wish for! 

 

Vail gondola accident kills four   

 

Twenty die in Italy tram nightmare

 

Four killed and 31 injured in Squaw Valley

 

Cavalese cable car accident kills 43

 

170 die in tunnel fire in Kaprun

post #277 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
 

 

 - Safety means more people/family in ski resorts, as watching Youtube Videos of Accident with Chairlift at least stop me to visit ski resorts with my children. Its simple is to unsafe, especially if your child has more energy or attention disorders (Adhd/add is hard to recognize at this young age) and could proven very dangerous for children. 



Its 2015. Time to stop this dreadful accidents and think about safety for ones. 
 

Top trolling complete with requisite spelling.  Applause

It's funny when a new member shows up on EpicSki sometimes. If they have a controversial viewpoint that's obviously going to trigger an emotional response from some people, it's easy to throw the "t" word at them. When there are typos or grammar errors, the likelihood that we have a troll rises. If that viewpoint has a hint of rationality behind it, the quality of it's trollness goes up. When it takes a complex response to show why the viewpoint has severe flaws, the quality of the troll is excellent. When it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between a troll and a perfectly reasonable opinion we either have a world class troll or a perfectly reasonable opinion.

 

Stephanie could be coming to us from a place where English is not the first language spoken. She could be coming to us from a culture that many of the posters here would deride as a "nanny" state. She could be easily unaware of the extreme pursuit of liability that the American legal system incentivizes makes it highly unlikely that such an obvious safety measure would go unused for long. Or she could be arguing that the lack of such a system world wide raises the reasonableness that the safety measure is at least justifiable in other skiing countries. A moderator might be able to pick up on these clues that other posters can not. A moderator might be able to ask long time members to ask a few more questions before throwing the "t" word at a new member. Sometimes it is worth giving someone the benefit of the doubt. It would be a shame to run off a new member simply because we were too lazy to consider that the unlikely could be the case. But I won't ask a member to do something I won't do so ....

 

If you throw out cost as a concern, the suggestion becomes perfectly reasonable. There are a number of ways an automatic bar could be implemented without reducing the capacity of the lift system (i.e. slowing it down). If one considers the ease with which it is possible to fall out of a lift and the concept that allowing one's children into a situation where unnecessary risks are taken is a parental failure it is easy to come to the conclusion that the commonly implemented simple bar system is insufficient. If one considers the increasing prevalence of YouTube videos of chair accidents as an increasing level of danger or even the awareness of danger, the viewpoint is at least understandable. It's perfectly reasonable to see an automatic bar system in place in one entertainment environment (e.g. roller coasters) and question why it can not be used in a similar environment (ski resorts).

 

It takes an engineering background to understand the reasonableness of a contradictory viewpoint. The amount of money that should be spent on risk mitigation depends on the level of risk. Without even looking for industry wide data, my own experience of working for a single resort for 23 years can provide some insight. Over the past 23 years and millions of skier visits and probably over 100 million chair lift rides there have been many falls from lifts (usually 2-3 per year). None have resulted in death. Most don't even result in broken bones. How can this be? The majority of these falls have occurred on beginner lifts that are significantly lower to the snow surface and travel mostly over snow surfaces (as opposed to over non-trail terrain). Even a relatively hard snow surface has a lot more give than most uncovered surfaces. Children also are much less fragile than adults. So even though beginner children are far more likely to fall out of a chair, there are already many non-intuitive risk mitigation factors in place (e.g. starting children out on surface lifts like magic carpets, requiring small children to ride with adults, lifties manually flipping the bar during the loading process). Next we need to consider that at least 50% of the lift fall accidents that I'm aware of at my home resort involve a failure getting on or off that could have been avoided if the lift was a high speed design and the bar system was automatic. Finally, it is my estimate that at the most only 10% of the falls occurred when an available bar was not being used (I only know of 2 instances). Let's be generous and say we're talking about 75 incidents. It's my estimate that the cost to install an automatic bar system on all 6 lifts at this resort would easily exceed $10M (because a detachable design is required to make an automatic system not be a capacity killer). If the resort only installed a system on the 3 beginner lifts where over 80% of the falls have occurred, we're still looking at a minimum $5M investment. Now it may be easy to look at a handful of auto recalls or airline safety directives and see far more money spent per "incident", but if you boil the numbers down, you'll find that this kind of a cost of making bars automatic is way out of line relative to the risk being mitigated in the ski industry or any other industry. Especially when you consider that even an automatic bar system does not reduce incidents to zero. There's a good argument that a $5M investment in fencing could have prevented 50% of the on snow deaths and way more than 75 tree collision incidents. But if that investment was required up front, the resort would never have opened.

 

I've yet to see an amusement park put an automatic bar system on a simple chair lift ride. Where you see automatic bar systems employed (e.g. coasters), the likelihood of a fall without a bar is at least an order of magnitude higher, the risk of injury from a fall is greater and the cost to implement is relatively much lower due to the lesser number of seats involved and the colocation of ingress/egress. There's a big apples vs oranges difference here that is not intuitively obvious.

 

Stephanie is right about one thing. The ski industry has an opportunity to improve chairlift safety. There is room to get better at a reasonable cost.

post #278 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by segbrown View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanscrazydaisy View Post
 

 

Simple solution for you is... go to the mountains that have fully enclosed gondolas and only ski those trails that are accessible by gondola.

Careful what you wish for! 

 

Vail gondola accident kills four   

 

Twenty die in Italy tram nightmare

 

Four killed and 31 injured in Squaw Valley

 

Cavalese cable car accident kills 43

 

170 die in tunnel fire in Kaprun

 

 

Hey now!    No past event catastrophizing  in a speculative/future tense catastrophizing thread!   :rules: 

post #279 of 287

A sign like this at the entrance of every chair lift would eliminate the issue of small children falling off the chair during the ride.

 

 

Large and/or tall children - not so much.

post #280 of 287

Generally if I am with a few friends on the lift we do not put the bar down.  However, we tend to go through the singles line at our resort as to get back up the lift quicker.  Never a hesitation to put the bar down if any one I get paired with asks.  Thank god for my helmet as it has saved me a bump or two from those few people that don't ask or try pulling it down out of fear before everyone is even seated. 

 

I always put it down if there are small kids though, granted I'm not a parent, I would still feel indirectly responsible if something did happen up there.

post #281 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

It's funny when a new member shows up on EpicSki sometimes. 

Yeah I considered the language point and might pass on that but when someone who admits in their post that they don't ski (or I guess logically at a stretch does but doesn't use uplift or does but doesn't allow/take her kids) then lectures everyone it has hallmarks of a troll of some kind even if it's a cross post from a Mums Concerned about Safety! forum.  And she admits her position is based on Youtube vids.  I'm all for touchy feely but I've a feeling if I walked into more or less any sports forum and started on about mandatory safety based on a few vids I'd seen I'd get my ass handed to me.

 

I've never know anyone in all the time I've been skiing who has objected to a bar being used when children are riding a chair nor even anyone who would not proactively seek to lower the bar at the earliest opportunity when a kid would be protected so the automatic stuff just seems like overkill. Even in the relatively laissez faire France, they have kiddie lines for instructors to send up a kids with an adult on every chair. On the other hand I have been in the position of people having clothing, limbs, body parts etc trapped under the bar.  The bar isn't a universal panacea, a kid who doesn't know or won't sit back and sit still is still vulnerable.

post #282 of 287

I looked at the thread title and thought, "That's great! I'll take a good, local IPA for the ride up, please." I was then disappointed to read some of the posts. Comprehensive reading skills are helpful in times like these....

post #283 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by prickly View Post
 

I have no intention of reading this entire thread, but as someone who skied with little kids for a few years, I can't imagine putting them on chairs without bars. Having said that, I'm sure that if we skied somewhere without bars they'd have learned what to do.

I'm not really that interested in the argument over whether it's better to have a safety bar or not. I think it probably is, but whatever. What fascinates me about threads like this is there is always someone who'll say he refuses to use a bar (or wear a seat belt, whatever), 'cause it, like, infringes on his personal liberty or something. I love that. 

 

My favorite is terms like "nanny state". The only reason we have time and freedom to yap about skiing on the Interwebz is because that "nanny" state prevents us from having to walk around in mud underwear fighting off adversaries for food and water. Yeah, people do need saving from their own dumb selves. 

 

If Stefanie is a troll, she's a damn effective one, parodying this forum's penchant for ad naseum argument about the most mundane, tangential aspects of the skiing experience. If so, good job! If not, while a bit strong, her opinion isn't that much different from half the posters on this thread ...which is why we're 10 pages and 9 1/2 months in. Either way, piling on is only hurting yourself. 

post #284 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

My favorite is terms like "nanny state". The only reason we have time and freedom to yap about skiing on the Interwebz is because that "nanny" state prevents us from having to walk around in mud underwear fighting off adversaries for food and water. Yeah, people do need saving from their own dumb selves. 

If Stefanie is a troll, she's a damn effective one, parodying this forum's penchant for ad naseum argument about the most mundane, tangential aspects of the skiing experience. If so, good job! If not, while a bit strong, her opinion isn't that much different from half the posters on this thread ...which is why we're 10 pages and 9 1/2 months in. Either way, piling on is only hurting yourself. 
"Mud underwear fighting off adversaries??" You rule, dude.
post #285 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeUT View Post

My favorite is terms like "nanny state". The only reason we have time and freedom to yap about skiing on the Interwebz is because that "nanny" state prevents us from having to walk around in mud underwear fighting off adversaries for food and water.
Hey! I resemble that remark!
post #286 of 287

My mud underwear disintegrated the first time I washed it. :mad

post #287 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posaune View Post
 

My mud underwear disintegrated the first time I washed it. :mad

 

You had to though, it was getting crusty.

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