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New Lang RSX 130 L.V. boots - heat molding seems to have compressed the liner greatly

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

I just picked up a new pair of size 26.5 Lang RX 130 L.V. (Low Volume model) boots this weekend that my local mountain shops bootfitters selected for me.  I've skied two days on them since getting them Saturday morning.  I'm a little concerned with the way these were molded and would value some insight to how these were fit.

 

When describing my skill level, and how I was hoping the boot to fit a nice junior boot fitter at the shop had me try on a few low volume boots. I was shell fit to the Lang 130's and when trying them on out of the box the fit just clicked with me immediately.  I flexed the boot well and after wearing them around the shop I had the micro adjust buckles close to right and was amazed at how well the lowers held my foot in a firm handshake fit and was not forced to crank down the buckles to have a no slop fit.  Even with underfoot bed shims I normally have had to crank the buckles down to take up volume and dealt with the buckle pain.  There was mild toe bump but that was expected - especially with my larger foot.  I couldn't believe how close to perfect these boots were and was pumped!

 

Here is where I am confused.  The junior fitter picked me some super feet that were  red "high volume" beds, I stopped him and told him that I've used those for years and feel that these boots fit so well that I felt I didn't the high volume beds.  He went back and picked up some Super Feet pinks saying these had a lower volume and they felt fine when standing on them.   I put on socks with urethane toe caps.  He heated my liners for 10 minutes, popped in the Super Feet and I then wore the boots clamped down FAR tighter than I had before.  I didn't understand this process and he explained that this was to firmly mold the liners to my shell.  I learned after paying for them the pink Super Feet are also high volume footbeds, just a different arch shapre more intended for women but if they fit I'm all for it.  It just seemed odd that such a well fitting boot needed a high volume footbed.  I normally use those in boots that have too much volume or have packed out.

 

After the very tight and intense molding, the boots now seem sloppy.  I talked to the fitter repeatedly about this and he reheated the liners from both boots at different times with a heat gun to relax the liners compression some what, but they really aren't the same as new at all.  When reheating I wasn't told this but a 1mm shim was inserted under my smaller foots footbed.  Then today a 1mm shim that placed under my larger foots foot bed.  I was really hoping to avoid this until the liners were starting to pack out later on.  I won't know how to address liner pack out later in the life of the boot if I am running shims the firt weekend I own the boots.  Do I have other opinions to address loss of liner volume down the road that I am not aware of?

 

I am now over tightening the buckles to take up room in the boot very much like every boot I've ever owned.  When a senior boot fitter talked to me at the shop today when I returned he seemed to think I needed a lower volume boot and suggested that likely have poor skiing technique was causing the sloppy feeling in the boots. I said, that I didn't come into the shop asking for these boots and I was put in them because the junior fitter seemed to think I was flexing through the other low flex index boots and was listening to my request for a low volume fit due to my past fit experience.  I restated that I came in looking for a mid flex boot low volume boot and after flexing out all of the 100 and 110 boots, I was shell fit and these Lang 130's were suggested to me.  I wouldn't doubt that I have poor technique, I am investing in new boots this year to improve my abilities and take lessons this winter to commit to skiing full time.  I am open to hear what I can change with how I ski to address the fit and am willing to take any advice.  I am over the front of the boots when I ski however, and I do feel them flexing when I drive through my rookie parallel turns.  I am also feeling boot slop and I'm unsure how I can change that with my ski technique.  

 

Now that I have two shims and looser than new feeling boots I am starting to suspect that the liners were over compressed during the molding process and I am suspecting that the the junior fitter kept the fact that he volume shimmed the footbeds shims from me to cover this fact but I would love to get some input.  As it stands I feel as thought I spent quite a bit of money to own new boots that have liners that are already packed out.  They are only going to get more loose from here on out and I was hoping to get a few seasons out of these boots.

 

Can I get a second opinion on what happened here?  Is there a way to "unmold" the liners so they are not compressed to the extent they are?  I'd love a little perspective on this.  My shop has a guaranteed boot fit policy and I feel like they will help me get these right, I just don't know if the senior fitter knows how the boots were fitted to me before I skied in them.  I would really just like to have a pair of unmolded liners at this point to get my volume that seems to have been lost back. Also, please let me know if I'm off base here. 

 

Sorry for the long post I'm pretty beat after skiing today.  Hopefully I covered all the bases.  

 

Thanks for any advice. 


Edited by Flatfoot - 1/18/15 at 11:12pm
post #2 of 14

difficult one without seeing the foot in the shell, but my money is that even though this is a Low Volume boot as described by lange it is not all that low volume, it might be you need  a lower volume boot again, maybe a different liner maybe even a smaller size

 

but i do think you need to discuss it with the store,

 

changing the liner for an unmoulded one will probably not help (it might in the short term) as it will only pack out like that after a bit more skiing

post #3 of 14

agree with CEM. the answer lies back at the shop.

 

any boot fit that starts out with added fit shims is not the correct size or shape for your foot.

 

did you happen to see your measured size in mondopoint when you were at the shop? also what size street shoe do you wear?

 

what is the stamped shell length in mm, you will find it on the shell below the ankle area? did they shell check your bare foot and if so how much space was behind the heel to the shell?

 

can you take some photos of your feet and post them here.

 

i am a little suspect of the heat molding of a lange liner. those liners have some EVA heat moldable foam areas in the "fit zones" however it is not usually required to heat set them. they adapt to the foot easily after few days of skiing. in addition it is very rare to use toe caps on a heat set production liner. toe caps are normally used on full intuitions liners where they can help to keep the heel forced to the back and make a nice comfy pocket for your toes. they are also used while doing foam injected liners to force the heel to the back of the shell. the toe box on the lange liner is neoprene, stretchy, and generous.

 

i do not necessarily believe that the heat molding of the liner did any damage, other than showing you what the liner was going to feel like after it was broken in by skiing.

 

jim

post #4 of 14

If you need a third opinion, the previous two were correct and heat molding a liner never, never tightens the fit it only loosens it.  So if the fit is already loose heat molding only makes it worse.

 

Lou

post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the great reply's, it's appreciated.  

 

I'll get some pictures of my feet up and how they fit in the shell as soon as I can.  

 

It is sounding like it's not possible to "over compress" the liner.  By compressing the liner severely it is just brought to it's compressed state at the beginning of it's life but it shouldn't compress much more than where it is now.  Is that correct?

post #6 of 14

liners constantly compress. because it happens a little everyday, you sometimes do not feel it happening until you do feel it. usually you can feel the changes every 30 days of skiing. they never stop breaking down. that is why you need to be in the tightest boot that you can tolerate in the ski shop before you go skiing.

 

if you ski 7 days a year you can back off from that philosophy a touch, because it will take you 2 to 4 years until you notice the the first big degrading of the fit. but if you ski 60 days a season, it is not uncommon to need some fit enhancement in the the first 30 days, and again before the season ends. that means that you had better leave the shop with a pretty snug handshake grip fit if you ski 30 or more days per season. an average stock liner is good for 100 to 120 days. now you do the math, if you ski 100 days per season, you need a new liner for the next year. there are a few after market liners like foam injected, or zip fit that can have a longer breakdown period because of the hardness or density of the fit materials.

 

jim

post #7 of 14
Thread Starter 

Sorry for the delay in replying.  

 

I finally have photos of my feet and tried to get a shot down the cuff of my boot so show the shell fit.  I have bony thin fingers and have 1 and 3/4 fingers of room behind my heel.  

 

Thanks for all of the help guys.  I love the model of the boots the just seem too large.  I'm starting to believe I should go down a shell size and deal with toe bump problems if they appear, but want to work with my boot fitter.  I've had this problem my entire life with performance fits.  This was my first experience with a getting boot fitted and in hind sight I should have been more assertive.

 

I have small bone spurs on the back of my heels from old snowboard bindings that should be easy to address.  I'm not sure they appear unless I lean forward.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #8 of 14

yes, you need to get a boot that grips the hell out of your ankles and instep when brand new for performance skiing. get a boot that fits that part of your foot really well, and then make room for the parts that get compromised like your toes.

 

the shape of your toes makes it a real easy toe stretch in a lange.

 

jim

post #9 of 14
Thread Starter 

Starthaus, 

 

I meant to say I wear a size 9 street shoe, and if I recall I was a 27ish mondo point measure.

 

My shell is a size 26.5 and the heel has 296mm-255 stamped on it.  

post #10 of 14

you are in a 25.5 mondopoint, that's what the 296mm-25.5 means on the shell. you are not in a 26.5 boot.

 

where are you seeing the numbers 26.5? is it on a sewn in tag on the liner? or was it on the box?

 

also check to see if both boots are stamped 296mm?

 

jim

post #11 of 14
Thread Starter 

Damn.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I swear the  sticker on the toe of the boot stated 26.5.  

 

I'll double check both liners and shells when I get home.  Thank you.

 

Edit:  here is a picture of the shell size stamp that I took last night.

 

 

post #12 of 14
Thread Starter 

I wanted to provide an update.

 

I went back to the boot fitter and they didn't want to keep trying in a Lang LV's due to how extensive the toe box would need to pressed out to accomodate me in a smaller shell size.  

 

They had me shell fit into a K2 SpYne 110 LV in a 25.5.  

 

 

 

The K2 boot's shell had a noticeably lower shell ceiling over the top of my foot.  I popped them on with my pink Super Feet footbeds in them and no volume shims and the fit is night and day over the Lang for me.  Once trying them with liners inserted my toe had a very solid front end bump until the cuff buckles were buckled up in the calf snugly.   After skiing the day on them I came back with my heel bones spur issue bothering me quite a bit, but the heel area in the liner was compressed slightly and that seem to be enough to address to pain point.  I was told that if it flares up again they will press the shell out to alleviate the hot spot.  The Lang's needed this too so this wasn't a surprise.

 

Over all the fit on the K2 LV is great for me, which for some reason really surprised me after what I understood about the Lang LV fit.  I understand that the K2 liner is also an Intuition variant but I did not mold the liner as they feel so great out of the box I was afraid of changing the fit.  

 

The Lang liner was very soft and moved a noticeable amount with in the shell me.  I really wanted the 24.5 shell size, due to how much I live the Lang shell and bullet proof feel to the way the forward flex adjustment's work with the removable screws.

 

The K2 SpYne 110 LV was much stiffer than the Lang 130's with both forward flex adj. screws removed.  I love the flex of the Lang's with both screws out.  I was thinking of putting one of the screws back into the cuff because they are almost too soft, but was unsure of whether that was due to how warm it's been on the hill with I was trying them.

 

The K2 on the other hand was so stiff I struggled to get over my ski which was frustrating for me.  I need to get them softened up but on the K2 it's irreversible due to i requiring a removable of shell material at the back of the boot.. But damn that boot seems stiff for a 110.  Maybe it's due to the shell material of the two brands being different or the taller cuff of the Lang giving me more leverage on the shell?

 

I'm still on the steeper blues with a few black runs, but I had such a hard time getting over the ski on the K2's the blacks were much harder for me than they were when in the Lang's.  

 

If I can get the K2's to flex like the Lang boots I'll be a happy camper.  

 

I wish I was up skiing today instead of writing about ski boots at work and I'm sure I'm not alone there....  :)

 

Thanks for all the great help so far.

 

What is the Lang's "flex rating" supposed to be with both screws out?  I know it's all relative between boots and manufacturers.  But the Lang 130 out of the box with all screws is flex easier to flex for me than the K2 110 is.

post #13 of 14
Um, k2 spyne does not have any bolts to remove.

Jim
post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 

I know Jim, sorry for the rambling post above.  I shouldn't post before having any coffee.  

 

The K2 doesn't seem to have a way to soften the boot in a reversible way.  Out of the box the 110 K2 is much stiffer than the 130 Lange with both of the Lang's rear cuff screws removed.   First impression is that it actually feels stiffer to me than an out of the box 130 Lang. 

 

I just wonder if there is a way to know how much to remove from the rear of the K2's shell to try to soften it to the level of a screw removed Lang. I'm hesitant to have the bootfitter remove  any shell material since it's not reversible. 

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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › New Lang RSX 130 L.V. boots - heat molding seems to have compressed the liner greatly