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Skiing with more weight on the heels?

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

I just spent the day on my new R-Power 7.2 fs ... I love them !!! At the same time, I have a little problem ... I noticed that to ski them to their full potential, I have to ski them predominantly from the inside of my heel, just before the start of the Ark my foot ... And I wonder if this is normal?
Let me explain. What I mean is not that I put 100% of my weight on my heels, and it is not as I ski back seated (I feel pressure on my shins) but if instead of pushing (or counter) from the middle of my foot, or even the sole, I push from the heel then: there is no more shattering and I can really ( I mean really!) feel the power of the skis under my feet and how they are firmly grounded on the snow ( or ice).

 

So, should I:

  • change nothing and try to get used to ski this way?
  • move back my bindings until I feel like I'm at the right place?
  • try to find if there is something wrong with my skiing?

 

I'm thinking it could be a mix of the 2 first... Maybe I heard so much to get foward and to put weight on the tips that I got used to ski with too much emphasis on the front of the feet and maybe these skis don't let me go with it like my all mountain skis does... And I think that I should also move back my bindings so I could feel the sweet spot a little bit more toward the center of the feet...

 

What do you think?

post #2 of 26
Front of the heel / back of the arch? Go for it!
post #3 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

Front of the heel / back of the arch? Go for it!

Exactly there! So I'm guessing that it is ok to pressure the skis from there...

post #4 of 26
I would go as far as to say: desirable smile.gif
post #5 of 26
That is after all right below the center of the ankle/leg/skeleton.
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

I would go as far as to say: desirable smile.gif

Desirable? I couldn't ask for more! :)

Would it make sense to say that the back of the foot is used much like the saddle, stirrups and legs of a rider while the forefoot  serves more to steer as rein?

post #7 of 26
Hi mogsie,

Dunno about the saddle analogy …seems reasonable, but way outa my bailiwick. nolo might be able to weigh on that?

Anyway, don't take my word on the balance point, go test it out more yourself. SMJ's point about it being a strong place to stack, I suspect you already discovered; you mentioned feeling the power of the ski, but I bet you felt strong, stable and able to use what the ski was returning back as well.

But, don't think of it as a place to camp out at, but more of a strong home base to go forth from and explore to and fro. That said, just trying to stay centered there requires you to be very active throughout and when transitioning between turns, and is a worthy exercise.

Have fun with it!
post #8 of 26

I'm not sure what to tell you. But here's how I think about it in my own skiing...

 

I ski "from the bottoms of my feet". Everything starts there and I try to do as much as possible from my feet and ankles.  I have a focal point on my foot where can roll off of it to pressure the front, back, edges and combinations thereof with a minimum amount of body movement or cuff engagement.  For me, that point exists just to the inside and just slightly behind the ball of the foot. What you describe would be counter to my skiing style. For me, I can't imagine having predominant heel pressure, though I know of other skiers who report that as their norm. 

 

Maybe you want to explore different binding positions to see what suits you best? 

 

Edit: Question... Do you push down with your toes or pull up? Just curious. 

post #9 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

I'm not sure what to tell you. But here's how I think about it in my own skiing...

 

I ski "from the bottoms of my feet". Everything starts there and I try to do as much as possible from my feet and ankles.  I have a focal point on my foot where can roll off of it to pressure the front, back, edges and combinations thereof with a minimum amount of body movement or cuff engagement.  For me, that point exists just to the inside and just slightly behind the ball of the foot. What you describe would be counter to my skiing style. For me, I can't imagine having predominant heel pressure, though I know of other skiers who report that as their norm. 

 

Maybe you want to explore different binding positions to see what suits you best? 

 

Edit: Question... Do you push down with your toes or pull up? Just curious. 

I don't pull up; it's just that I will push down a little more thru near my heel than thru the ball of my feet ( I use more the ball of my feet than my toes when I push...)...

 

And yes, because my R-Power have a system bindings, for sure I'm gonna have to experiment with bindings position...At least to satisfy my curiosity... But I'll wait and ski them like they are right now for at least one or two more time...

post #10 of 26
What skis are these? Not that it matters, just curious. (plus what are you selling ?)
Maybe something has just clicked. Also, is this a flat delta for the bindings?
post #11 of 26

Experiment with the binding position.  First, look for the mark on the ski that shows where the boot sole center mark should line up.  Put a boot in and see how the marks match.  Don't trust the shop, see for yourself.  Next, stand the skis up on end and see if both marks are in the same place on each ski.  Again, see for yourself.  If you need to move the boots to match the marks, try that.  Try 5 cm forward, 10 cm forward, 5 cm back, 10 cm back.

post #12 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

What skis are these? Not that it matters, just curious. (plus what are you selling ?)
Maybe something has just clicked. Also, is this a flat delta for the bindings?

First answer: http://www.blizzard-ski.com/products/r-power-fs-iq-power-14-tcx/

 

I don't think the bindings are flat delta; it is a system bindings... But I'll verify anyway...

 

Where did you hear that I was selling? You're good because I didn't post anything yet but yes, I'll be selling some skis this week:

 

 

  • a pair of 2013 Head WorldCup Rebels i.Speed Skis 180cm w Head Freeflex Pro 14 Bindings ( almost new)

  • a pair of 2013 Rossignol Radical 9 SL ( 171 cm) + rossignol axial2 world cup 120 (almost new)     

  • a pair of 2013 Dynastar Speed Course Ti ( 183 cm ) + Look Pivot 18 ( more used but still in verry good shape)

  • a pair of Salomon Enduro 850 xti 2012 ( 184cm)

  • and maybe a pair of Mantra 2014 ( 184 cm)...

  •  
post #13 of 26
I did not hear it but was wondering. I figured maybe one ski, but 5?? Plus there's the spring yet. Surely they'll more?

Between ScotsSkier and you I could never visit a store and get all my stuff. He only has one type though. Well two. Slalom and gs. Then over to your store for the east coast fat boy in the 70's or surfer in the 80's. All set. Maybe find something fat by taking apart an old fence made of skis and using 4 of 'em.
post #14 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I did not hear it but was wondering. I figured maybe one ski, but 5?? Plus there's the spring yet. Surely they'll more?

Between ScotsSkier and you I could never visit a store and get all my stuff. He only has one type though. Well two. Slalom and gs. Then over to your store for the east coast fat boy in the 70's or surfer in the 80's. All set. Maybe find something fat by taking apart an old fence made of skis and using 4 of 'em.

There was "The Ski"; now there will be "The Fence"... Or D-Fence?

post #15 of 26
@mogsie
What you're describing could be one of three things. The tail of the ski is wider in relation to the tip than you are accustomed to with your other skis, the heel of the binding is high, creating a forward delta lager than you're accustomed to, or as others have mentioned, the mounting position is further forward on the ski than you're accustomed to. Without experimenting on your own it is difficult to diagnose. I actually rarely purchase a ski with an integrated binding specifically for the reason that it limits setup options. Good luck.
post #16 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

@mogsie
What you're describing could be one of three things. The tail of the ski is wider in relation to the tip than you are accustomed to with your other skis, the heel of the binding is high, creating a forward delta lager than you're accustomed to, or as others have mentioned, the mounting position is further forward on the ski than you're accustomed to. Without experimenting on your own it is difficult to diagnose. I actually rarely purchase a ski with an integrated binding specifically for the reason that it limits setup options. Good luck.

Thanks for your feedback! I'll eventually check those out!

 

About your last sentence... Not buying a ski because of integrated binding system is out of the option! If I did that, I would never have skied the Fire Arrow 84 EDT (What a blast) and the R-Power is one of the best skis I skied so far... And system bing has limits of his own but regular bindings too! Try to play with your bindings position with a Griffon (non demo)... The only system bindings I try to keep away from is the EVO fixation that you can find on  Nordica skis and also on the Elan because you can't play with bindings position; there is only one way of setting your bindings positions...

post #17 of 26

I'd like to make a couple points about "ramp angle", pressure and stance. There are a number of factors involved determining where the majority of pressure centers on the foot, fore/aft. . The angle inside the boot is then altered by the angle created by the difference of toe piece hight/heel piece height combined with the top curvature of the ski and mounting position of the binding. The boot shaft angle and the way your insoles support your feet are all interconnected. 

 

Obviously the combined elements, boot/binding/ski will contribute to the overall basic stance (fore/aft) but there are other contributing factors regarding which area of the foot feels the most pressure.  As an example, a higher ramp angle *should* shift the hips forward and move the CoM forward a bit.  But to pressure the front of the foot while being pitched forward a bit would require that the boot shaft would allow that forward shift. Boots shafts that are too straight/too stiff might prevent someone to pressure the front part of the ski from the feet.  Consqeuently forward pressure of the ski would be via leverage from the top of the boot cuff, particularly if the toes are not supported properly to accomodate the added forward lean.  The result, I believer, for that situation is that the skier would have a great deal of pressure at the top of the boot cuff and the opposing force would be pressure off the heel. 

 

OTOH, if the front part (toes) of the foot are properly supported, the boot cuff stiffness and angle does not present an obstacle to moving hips forward over the bindings properly then the pressure point on the foot can be more forward. 

 

In other words (related to the OP's observation that his pressure was at his heel) there are many factors involved, including skier style that can determine where one feels his balance is centered fore/aft. I'm not sure I was altogether clear in what I'm trying to get across. I may need to create some illustrations.    I may start another thread with this discussion. 

post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Experiment with the binding position.  First, look for the mark on the ski that shows where the boot sole center mark should line up.  Put a boot in and see how the marks match.  Don't trust the shop, see for yourself.  Next, stand the skis up on end and see if both marks are in the same place on each ski.  Again, see for yourself.  If you need to move the boots to match the marks, try that.  Try 5 cm forward, 10 cm forward, 5 cm back, 10 cm back.

Do you mean mm or cm?  If we are talking about going from a all-mountain or race set up to a park set up (or vice versa) a 5-10 cm movement might be warranted, but generally speaking, you don't see a lot of guys go more than 2-4 cm from the recommended line.  

post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree30 View Post

Do you mean mm or cm?  If we are talking about going from a all-mountain or race set up to a park set up (or vice versa) a 5-10 cm movement might be warranted, but generally speaking, you don't see a lot of guys go more than 2-4 cm from the recommended line.  
I know Wc guys who have moved 5cm from factory base.
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 

I'll begin in mm and move on to cm if needed... I'm guessing he was talking in cm...

post #21 of 26
Thread Starter 

Moved the bindings 5 mm back and it feel very nice! Still the feeling of very strong skis under the feet and very strong edge grip but now, I feel that I can push a little more from the center of my feet... Didn't have time to ski them a lot last night so looking foward to this week end ( Will probably go to Jay Peak! Yes!)

 

 

p.s. People who know me here know that I always seek skis with good edge grip ( Hell! I live north of the NorthEast!). So all my skis have good edge grip...But I must say that in the case of the R-Power ( and also the Rossignol Master 21), it is beyond that; these skis make me seek icy conditions!!! So I must say that they make me very happy this season!!!:D

post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 

Moved the bindings 5 mm back and it feel very nice! Still the feeling of very strong skis under the feet and very strong edge grip but now, I feel that I can push a little more from the center of my feet... Didn't have time to ski them a lot last night so looking foward to this week end ( Will probably go to Jay Peak! Yes!)

 

 

p.s. People who know me here know that I always seek skis with good edge grip ( Hell! I live north of the NorthEast!). So all my skis have good edge grip...But I must say that in the case of the R-Power ( and also the Rossignol Master 21), it is beyond that; these skis make me seek icy conditions!!! So I must say that they make me very happy this season!!!:D

5 MILLIMETERS?  Amazing on how such a small an adjustment can make such a difference. Did it change your stance as well as the balance point? 

post #23 of 26
I know that's less than 1/4 of an inch. Personally I suspect the placebo effect here.
post #24 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
 

5 MILLIMETERS?  Amazing on how such a small an adjustment can make such a difference. Did it change your stance as well as the balance point? 

If you read regularly threads on Epic, you'll see that it is not unusual... Some of my skis, I moved the bindings up to 1.5 cm ( even more with the Outland 8.7 that was way off) and sometimes you could feel when moving the bindings a little 5 mm more that it was too much! 

I must say that with the R-Power, I really feel a really precise sweet spot so I'm guessing that it is why I can feel a nice difference for just 0.5 cm... Also, I suspect that if I feel that sweetspot right under my ankle ( and at the level of my COM), moving the bindings will have a bigger effect than if the sweetspot was lets say under my ball of feet ( already foward my COM)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I know that's less than 1/4 of an inch. Personally I suspect the placebo effect here.

You're just jealous because I have new skis!  ;)

post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

 
5 MILLIMETERS?  Amazing on how such a small an adjustment can make such a difference. Did it change your stance as well as the balance point? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I know that's less than 1/4 of an inch. Personally I suspect the placebo effect here.
You're just jealous because I have new skis!  wink.gif
Well the placebo effect is real.
But yeah...send me a pair to check that it's not "just" in your head. (Like that you needed new ones in the first place. I'll try to confirm the old ones were fine too. Might take a while. It's a tough job. :-) )
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

I know that's less than 1/4 of an inch. Personally I suspect the placebo effect here.
no - it sounds about right and what. I was about to suggest.... A quarter inch makes a big difference on many skis. From hard work to jusrt right or from feeling too far back to just right...

You are right though: Makes you wonder about those internal feelings we have and how little actual movement they actually involve, eh?

I like the Atomic X Race bindig system which allows you to slide the binding up to one inch fore/aft in quarter inch increments and you can play wih that and feel the results. I ended up a quarter inch forward on both SL and GS. On SL I often set them back to neutral... On GS I find that 6mm forward makes them just right for me....

One inch felt too much in Either direction, either it is hard to carve or you get no snap out of the tails...

Cheers
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