or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › What if we quit teaching that strong side and weak side turns need to be as identical and symmetrical as possible?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

What if we quit teaching that strong side and weak side turns need to be as identical and symmetrical as possible? - Page 3

post #61 of 86
Thread Starter 

Here's  neat tool to check and see what level of symmetry you have strengthwise.

 

Self-Assessment for the Serious Skier

post #62 of 86

There is no symmetrical. It is an illusion designed to sell things.   We need asymmetry, we need high degrees of variability for our nervous system to have access to options.  If any of the moves or exercises are interesting to you then they are worth pursuing.  But, they are all contextual, just because you can do a land based movement "symmetrically" doesn't mean you will be that way on  the hill.  Simplifying assessment to a couple joint relationships is a nice starting place.  If someone is serious about knowing themselves then why stop at investigating only a couple places?  Ultimately it is only movement so you can feel something and begin to make modifications, know your body. Embrace the asymmetry, know how your different, if it feels symmetrical that is but one quality, one variation.  I just cringe at the thought of people believing symmetry is a gold standard.

 

regards,

 

chad

post #63 of 86

Should I get my right testicle lowered or raise the left one?  I realize I will have to get them both shrunk so they will still fit between my legs with the new symmetry.

post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


This thread is about non symmetrical skiing, and ways to fix non symmetrical skiing problems (including non symmetrical anatomy) with skiing solutions rather than ways to fix skiing problems with gear solutions.  Call that a troll if you like.  It is what it is.

I'm disappointed CR. Ive always enjoyed your posts, but things seem to be off the rails of late. You OK?
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

There is no symmetrical. It is an illusion designed to sell things.----    I just cringe at the thought of people believing symmetry is a gold standard.

 

regards,

 

chad

chad I understand what you are saying but I don't think most of the posters in this thread are using the same definition of symmetry and asymmetry that you are referring to.   To most skiers symmetry means an overall feeling of being in balance with low muscular tension between the right and left halves of the body.  Some might use it to define good technique but I don't.

Everyone perceives balance differently and that perception can be fooled in many ways, good and bad. As you point out there is no one gold standard.

post #66 of 86
Coming from a race background, there's zero advantage to lack of symmetry in one's skiing in the competitive realm. When I demo for coaching, lessons, etc... I need to show consistency on both feet. We all have weak sides. I taught myself to do a mean left handed layup, baby hook, and could dribble equally well left and right handed. it took effort. My left leg works pretty well kicking a soccer ball. If it doesn't to someone, so be it, but don't claim it's 'just as good'. It ain't.
post #67 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
 

chad I understand what you are saying but I don't think most of the posters in this thread are using the same definition of symmetry and asymmetry that you are referring to.   To most skiers symmetry means an overall feeling of being in balance with low muscular tension between the right and left halves of the body.  Some might use it to define good technique but I don't.

Everyone perceives balance differently and that perception can be fooled in many ways, good and bad. As you point out there is no one gold standard.

I think these days that is more and more the case.  I don't think that the best racers of the 70s and 80s cared that their right turn was an exact mirror image of their left turn as long as both were equally effective, strong, and solid.  However, in the powder turn comps symmetry was paramount wasn't it?  The PSIA demo team wants their left and right turns to look as symmetrical as possible don't they? 

 

I'd rather embrace minor differences in anatomy right and anatomy left as long as they aren't huge obstacles to our personal or competitive goals.  More people these days have goals that include great symmetry in their skiing.  I'll admit that very poor symmetry is something I'd not be happy with myself..

post #68 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Coming from a race background, there's zero advantage to lack of symmetry in one's skiing in the competitive realm. When I demo for coaching, lessons, etc... I need to show consistency on both feet. We all have weak sides. I taught myself to do a mean left handed layup, baby hook, and could dribble equally well left and right handed. it took effort. My left leg works pretty well kicking a soccer ball. If it doesn't to someone, so be it, but don't claim it's 'just as good'. It ain't.

Agree, but do you shoot threes left favored and right favored?

 

I always thought it would be cool if a baseball pitcher could throw heat both left handed and right handed.  Batter goes switch?  Pitcher moves the glove to the other hand and throws switch:p 

post #69 of 86
Yes. Racers in the 70's and 80's cared about having equally strong left and right turns. Anything else was slow.
post #70 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Yes. Racers in the 70's and 80's cared about having equally strong left and right turns. Anything else was slow.


Agreed but mirror image symmetry wasn't stressed as much.  Effective but slightly different is OK too as long as it is fast.  Using a little extra inside edge on the weak side was a common way of adding help on the weak side back then when one footed skiing was more the norm.

post #71 of 86
Cr, fill me in on your rack background, FIS points, etc... I need a baseline.
post #72 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Cr, fill me in on your rack background, FIS points, etc... I need a baseline.

:rotflmao:

post #73 of 86
I don't think people rec skiing are obsessed with symmetry just that one turn often causes them lots of problems or feels odd. It's a very common complaint particularly at lower levels.
post #74 of 86
Thread Starter 

^^^and bumps... ski great everywhere but don't like moguls hahahaha

post #75 of 86
Thread Starter 

I want symmetry switch and regular too.  I want my left switch to be a perfect mirror image of my right regular turn.  Got my boot ramp at a perfect 90 degrees and symmetrical skis mounted dead center ;) 

post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post

roflmao.gif

Exactly.
post #77 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Exactly.


Yep, pretty laughable but not completely void.  No FIS, but 3rd in the Dynastar Duals at Buck Hill 1982:rotflmao: 

 

post #78 of 86
So you were schooling Jimmy Marceau, Yani, Cory, and Stevie Nelson then? I sort of doubt it somehow.
post #79 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

So you were schooling Jimmy Marceau, Yani, Cory, and Stevie Nelson then? I sort of doubt it somehow.


Who said they competed in that race?  That's my bib, that's my medal.  I was there.  Placed 3rd.  Those are also my USSA Freestyle bibs.  Three years of meets.  Never did better than 10th in any of the numerous events I competed in there though..

post #80 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Cr, fill me in on your rack background, FIS points, etc... I need a baseline.


OK your turn..  I have a feeling you raced quite a bit more.

post #81 of 86
Thread Starter 

:popcorn 

 

 

 

Meh, nevermind I guess back to the discussion of the value of perfect symmetry versus being OK with slight variations right and left and so on..

 

Going to bed now.  Hope to dream about skiing!:ski

post #82 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

I think these days that is more and more the case.  I don't think that the best racers of the 70s and 80s cared that their right turn was an exact mirror image of their left turn as long as both were equally effective, strong, and solid.  However, in the powder turn comps symmetry was paramount wasn't it?  The PSIA demo team wants their left and right turns to look as symmetrical as possible don't they? 

 

I'd rather embrace minor differences in anatomy right and anatomy left as long as they aren't huge obstacles to our personal or competitive goals.  More people these days have goals that include great symmetry in their skiing.  I'll admit that very poor symmetry is something I'd not be happy with myself..


Maybe it's me that is off base in this thread by thinking of symmetry as having to do with muscular tension between the right and left halves of the body instead of anything to do with turn shape and technique.   Good bootfitting/alignment is essential to reducing muscle fatigue and dynamic skiing.  No amount of fitness and practice will compensate.

 

Given a skier with good alignment, the differences between right and left turns is usually some type of body rotation bias restricting range of motion more on one turn direction than the other.  Most of the time the skier can feel the difference produced at the skis but is unable to sense the rotation.  Coaching or video help a lot to nail down the problem.  You will never get your right and left turns exactly the same.

You can also chase your tail trying to correct something if you are skiing the same double fall line run all the time.  Mix it up.

post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
 

chad I understand what you are saying but I don't think most of the posters in this thread are using the same definition of symmetry and asymmetry that you are referring to.   To most skiers symmetry means an overall feeling of being in balance with low muscular tension between the right and left halves of the body.  Some might use it to define good technique but I don't.

Everyone perceives balance differently and that perception can be fooled in many ways, good and bad. As you point out there is no one gold standard.


Hi Pierre,

 

I certainly agree with your definition.  I was only reading/watching the land based 'fixes' and assessments that were offered and directed my comment at the applicability of these. Standing on a moving platform, over undulating, highly variable terrain, at variable speeds requires anything but symmetrical use of the body.  I merely think seeking constraints in movement is the wrong direction.  It is viable for training and body knowledge, but should be discarded on the hill.

 

-Chad

post #84 of 86
After returning to alpine now 5 years ago, I had to sort out my pelvis. The boot alignment took some time, but was relatively easy. The pelvis on the other hand isn't chock full of priopreceptors, so I had to figure out some physical cues/sensations that would help with proper alignment through the arc. That took some work and was incredibly frustrating for a couple of those five seasons.
post #85 of 86
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Maybe it's me that is off base in this thread by thinking of symmetry as having to do with muscular tension between the right and left halves of the body instead of anything to do with turn shape and technique.   Good bootfitting/alignment is essential to reducing muscle fatigue and dynamic skiing.  No amount of fitness and practice will compensate.

 

Given a skier with good alignment, the differences between right and left turns is usually some type of body rotation bias restricting range of motion more on one turn direction than the other.  Most of the time the skier can feel the difference produced at the skis but is unable to sense the rotation.  Coaching or video help a lot to nail down the problem.  You will never get your right and left turns exactly the same.

You can also chase your tail trying to correct something if you are skiing the same double fall line run all the time.  Mix it up.

 

This.  We need mirrors on the side of the trail.  Or an instructor with a seasoned eye.  Or a level of personal persistence and flexible thinking that exceeds expectations.

post #86 of 86
Thread Starter 

I'm pretty one sided for the most part.  I did learn to use the left side in sports like Marko mentioned.  But, I'd never have been successful at doing helicopters spinning both directions like Tanner Hall can.  As for the turns, I probably have less A-frame on the weak side right turns than on the left turns because I use more inside right edge to compensate for the weaker left leg.  I do still consciously focus on keeping both hands forward and up.  Upper body is fairly close to the same both sides, but like Pierre said, will never be perfectly symmetrical.  I'm good with what I bring to the mountain.  Until my boots need replacing I'll not be doing any mods. 

 

Look forward to seeing you at Blue Knob again Pierre Thumbs Up

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › What if we quit teaching that strong side and weak side turns need to be as identical and symmetrical as possible?