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A Blast from the Past

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 

This video was "posted" on YouTube a year ago captured from the posters VHS collection in 2001.  I watched about 5 minutes of it, quickly scanned it a bit throughout the vid. I'll leave it up to you guys to do the editorial comments.

 

  

post #2 of 21
Funny, that popped up for me too on YouTube the other day. Looks like the video predates modern ski design. There's another clip linked there where he's teaching on modern skis that wouldn't pass for good skiing now, but in the early days of deep sidecut skis it probably represented the upper echelon of what a good skier could have achieved (given how little exposure the public had to the ski design at that point in time).
post #3 of 21

There is quite a lot that holds up well about Lito's instruction, especially for advanced beginners and low intermediates who haven't started to really conceptualize and actualize foot-level balance and turn-shape.  And certainly, his narrative skills are among the best ever in the world of 'How to' books and videos.  

 

And, I love his elegant style.  If you've seen all his videos and read the various iterations of his books, you'll know that he was well aware that his style was far more relaxed and less dynamic than some other top skiers.  In fact, he draws that comparison between himself and the better demo skiers from his videos (Jerry Berg, Harald Harb, and I can't remember the woman in the Mogul video who was an ex-olympian), and discusses the differences in style and athleticism and dynamism.  But, he also notes that the differences are mostly a matter of degree, intensity, and ability and the basic foot-work and balance was the same.  And I think he is correct.

 

I hope Lito's classic weren't shared just for unvetted, contemporary, ski-instructional, know-it alls to poke fun at or pointlessly criticize (which, is the impression I get).  He deserves better.  He made a lot of people much better skiers, and he did it in a way that not only promoted more enjoyment of sliding down a snow-covered hill, but also promoted a deeper love of ski culture and the greater mountain experience. He presented his material in a broad, approachable manner that rested on the fundamental shared joy that only skiing brings and he always did it with a touch of old-school class.  Something that is sorely missing from the didactic absolutism of most ski instruction presentations…here and elsewhere.

post #4 of 21

Liam, I'm thrilled that people enjoyed Tejada-Flores' videos and became better skiers through it. Clearly that's a win.

 

Any work released to the public is subject to scrutiny by the public. Looking at this video 20 years after it was produced, it's helpful to put on our 1990 hats and assess how it fits within that context. Since I didn't start skiing until well after this skiing, I can't evaluate from that perspective. However, if people became better skiers, it was clearly successful. 

 

We can also take a comparative approach to assess if the video has aged well. A good aging test is to evaluate whether or not you'd be willing to use this material as a teaching resource today. We still use a lot of the tactics from the video (e.g. balancing in the middle of the ski, turning gradually through the turn). However, there are some pretty big differences too in areas like stance&balance and timing (e.g. there's no independent leg steering; "flexing into the turn" as a go-to tactic). Because of these differences, the skiers on-camera are not a good visual model for the 21st century skier. 

 

His video on "super sidecut skis" doesn't leave a better impression with me:

Tejada-Flores demonstrates mostly straight ski tactics on the skis - his boots are glued together, he's skidding through the end of all of his turns, and his upper body rotates into turns. Maybe the skis themselves weren't stiff enough to go on edge without deforming, or maybe skiers didn't have as good of a model for good skiing yet. Even good skiers like HH aren't skiing anywhere near as well as they do now. I'm not sure the gear's making these guys rotate through the end of their turns though.  

 

There were some funny notions in those videos, like "rolling the inside ski over onto a sort of imaginary edge while at the same time keeping that ski light and pulling it in relatively close to the weighted outside ski is almost always part of a good turn." (23:15) 

 

So was it helpful in 1990? It sounds like it from Liam's post. Has it aged well? I would not choose these videos over a more modern resource. Does it hold value now? It's an interesting historic piece and helps me understand why some people ski the way they do. 

post #5 of 21

I'm sitting in an airport at the moment with sketchy wifi and can't watch this whole video, but I watched the first few minutes and also I own Lito's DVD's and books.  There is nothing dated about his materials, except for the clothing styles.  What he is talking about and what Metaphor is quoting is absolutely positively applicable today.  Metaphor calls that a "funny notion" but I teach that concept almost every single day I teach, and work on that movement in my own skiing almost constantly, its very easy to get lazy about it, but Lito is right, this is almost always part of a "good" turn.  This is NOT old traditional skiing nor does it have anything to do with straight skis.  Lito and some of the other people mentioned were some of the first people to get folks on the right track with changes related to shaped skis back in the day.  They were way ahead of most and near as I can tell, probably still are.

 

Lito has a poetic way of presenting information and its a delight to a absorb his materials in a very non-technical way, though me personally I connect more with more direct discussions.

post #6 of 21

bts, you feel that in your good turns you almost always roll the inside ski onto an imaginary edge (rather than on the real edge)? Your legs are so close that your inside leg is touching your outside leg? You should watch the video to see what he's demonstrating - the words sound fine, but the picture is not. 

 

It's fair to say that the general ideas from the videos remain the same in modern skiing. But the devil is in the details, and the details that I use and see among top skiers are quite different from those shown in these videos. 

 

Do you like to rotate into your turns (I don't think he faced down the fall line during a single short radius turn in the video)? Do you like to keep your stance so tight that you have no independent leg steering? Do you enjoy skiing at low edge angles? Do you enjoy not carving, but telling people you're carving? (This premise is visible throughout the video - the only time he leaves pencil tracks is during low speed low aspect exercises.)

 

Is it possible that your memory of the "good old days" is clouding how you perceive these videos?

 

The videos demonstrate what we'd now consider great intermediate skiing. I would hope that any good level 2 skis better than what the videos demonstrate. In many ways the modern level 1s ski better (they can't pass if they rotate into turns, for example). But we're also 20 years later, skiing technology has improved, the average skier is skiing more terrain at higher performance levels, and expectations are different. I give the guy credit for what he accomplished at the time, but let's be honest - I can't imagine this calibre of skiing would pass the CSIA level 4. 


Edited by Metaphor_ - 1/17/15 at 1:25pm
post #7 of 21
Hey meta I don't have time right now to respond to all your comments but your critisms on the surface seem unfounded and lack context of litos style of teaching which personally find still very relevant today, at least as relevant as the bloody up moves and other nonsense that has been endorsed by many in csia and Psia for years since Lito released what he did. When I have more time I will watch the whole video and respond to you more completely but it sounds like you are trying to draw criticisms to a guy you should try to learn from FWIW
post #8 of 21

bts, it strikes me that you're reacting rather than responding. I've agreed that there are a lot of good things in Tejada-Flores' skiing. There are also stance issues and movement pattern problems which are detrimental to skiing. Consider these evident issues:  

  • Rotating into the start of the turn, leading to oversteering at the end and a tail skid
  • Boots glued together, leading to inability to steer legs independently
  • Tactical choices that prevent him from building up significant pressure over the outside ski
  • Frequently incomplete turns in the demos

 

Maybe the gear itself at the time wouldn't have supported higher performance skiing. And I'm sure that for his time, Tejada-Flores' skiing and teaching could be considered great. But there are recurring issues with his technique that prevent him from moving to an expert level. See the Canadians for a 2011 comparison (you may wish to mute the video):  

 

 

So my challenge to you is to respond, rather than react, and identify why the points I've identified above are not issues. 

post #9 of 21
As I try to improve my own skiing- I've become more of a student of the game. This has lead me down some rather strange paths such as collecting old books on ski technique. Rather than focus on the differences in technique vernacular & equipment, if skiing history is looked at as similarities: there really is only one way to ski.
post #10 of 21

Metaphor_, I have Lito's books and vids and he definitely discusses staying more square to the skis in bigger radius turns, but using dynamic anticipation for shorter radius turns. See here...

 

http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/_videos/video1.html

 

This classic ski-instruction video set a new standard of simplicity and clarity in the ski-teaching world. Lito makes the point that expert skiing is no harder than intermediate skiing-- it's merely different. The mysteries of expert skiing are distilled into three key steps: 1. Learning to ride the outside ski of the turn in clean round arcs. 2. Developing a bombproof parallel start through early weight shift; and finally, 3. Mastering short linked turns, straight down the slope, by practicing dynamic anticipation-- a movement pattern where the skier's legs and feet turn from side to side, but the upper body does not....

 

As to the early weight shift part, although many seem to feel that flexing/OLR is where it's at, with two feet on the snow at all times, not everyone does. See some of the recent threads in the coaching forum, or just watch World Cup skiing.

 

In Lito's "Private Ski Lesson 3" video above the "Feet First" section starting at 26:34 and "To Carve Or Not To Carve" starting at 30:55 both seem pretty relevant still to me.

 

Go to 11:50 in that video, watch that section, and then have a look at this...

 

http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/clinic-where-things-happen-fast

 

Pretty similar, eh?

 

Rogan, in case you don't know, is a well known PSIA instructor, and was just named to the coaching staff for the US Women's Ski Team.

 

Lito may well be the Ginger Rogers** of the ski world. He not only skied what these other guys did, he carried the camera and filmed it...

 

 

 

There's more than one way to ski - just look at the different demo skiers in Lito's vids. Lito himself skis in a more relaxed style, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - some people may want to ski that way - but he is still a graceful and capable skier.

 

And his stuff is still useful.

 

 

**She did everything Fred Astaire did, only backwards in heels.

Edited by jc-ski - 1/17/15 at 5:47pm
post #11 of 21

Meta, 

 

Maybe you can clarify if you are criticizing Lito's skiing or his teaching.  I find absolutely nothing wrong in any concept he tried to explain to you in those videos, and every bit as relevant today as it was back then.  Nothing has changed.  The newer technology just makes it easier, that is all.  Lito and a few others were decades ahead of mainstream ski instruction in terms of carving technique.  Mainstream ski instruction is still catching up actually...

 

Is he the best skier out there? No.  He wasn't then and not in comparison to many out there now either using the far advanced technology that we get to enjoy today.  You don't have to be the hottest skier out there to be the greatest teacher and likewise, being a hot skier does not make you a great teacher either.  IMHO lito was standing too much on his heels and I would agree with you about some rotary he sneaks in there, but he did not teach rotary, he taught carving, and he demonstrated his conceptual points beautifully, even if he is not overall the kind of skier you dream of being in terms of hot bad ass skier ness.

 

He included some video from Richie Berger, who has been one of the best in the business and demonstrated some things better, same concepts.  If you know what you are looking at, you will see Lito making rounder turns than a huge number of so called current hot shots today on equipment that theoretically should be easier to do so.  Even the recently talked about JF, whom is a truly talented skier, does not ski as round of a turn as Lito was on ancient technology for this video.  That's doesn't make Lito a better skier then JF by any stretch, but in my mind it does show that Lito actually understood more than JF does today about how to carve round turns.  This old material is VERY applicable today and now that I know its on you tube I will be sending the link to some people I know.

 

I will respond to some of your comments now that I have more time...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

We can also take a comparative approach to assess if the video has aged well. A good aging test is to evaluate whether or not you'd be willing to use this material as a teaching resource today. 

 

I think I answered that already.  YES YES YES.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 However, there are some pretty big differences too in areas like stance&balance and timing (e.g. there's no independent leg steering; "flexing into the turn" as a go-to tactic). Because of these differences, the skiers on-camera are not a good visual model for the 21st century skier. 

 

ILS is not what some of us today aspire to do.   I have no idea whatsoever you mean by "flexing into the turn".  what is this 21st century visual model you are referring to?

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

Tejada-Flores demonstrates mostly straight ski tactics on the skis - his boots are glued together, he's skidding through the end of all of his turns, and his upper body rotates into turns.

 

Meta, you didn't understand anything in the video if you think he was demonstrating straight ski tactics, nor do you understand what people used to do on straight skis.  The whole point of the video is to explain and demonstrate methods that excel on shaped skis, which it accomplishes quite well and 20 years ahead of mainstream ski instruction.

 

Also I didn't see his boots glued together.  Extremely narrow stance yes.  More on that in a minute.  Do you understand the difference between a very narrow stance and "boots glued together"?  Do you understand the reasons why he and Berger were endorsing and demonstrating a very narrow stance?  

 

His upper body was rotating I agree, that is imperfection in his skiing.  Nothing he was teaching endorses that or necessarily results in that, nor was upper rotary EVER considered good on straight skis either.

 

His skis were not arcing.  Did you understand his segment about the difference between skidding and carving?  It doesn't sound like it.  He was brush carving his turns, beautifully I might add.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

 Maybe the skis themselves weren't stiff enough to go on edge without deforming, or maybe skiers didn't have as good of a model for good skiing yet. Even good skiers like HH aren't skiing anywhere near as well as they do now. I'm not sure the gear's making these guys rotate through the end of their turns though.  

 

By that comment I take it to mean that you don't place any value on a smeared or brushed type of carve, or recognize it as anything other then crude skidding.  I suggest you watch the part of the video again where he explains the difference between carving and skidding, and his version of carving does not have to be edge locked.  You speak of it like only edge locked is to be considered carving, but smeared or brushed carves are actually quite a bit more difficult then pure edge locked arcing.  Use whatever words you want, but Lito was demonstrating a type of turn that is very difficult to do, and non-edge locked was desirable.   Try not to let terminology conflicts blind you from what is actually happening or being explained there.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

There were some funny notions in those videos, like "rolling the inside ski over onto a sort of imaginary edge while at the same time keeping that ski light and pulling it in relatively close to the weighted outside ski is almost always part of a good turn." (23:15) 

 

This is great teaching!  Do you understand the reasons why he was teaching that?  

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

So was it helpful in 1990? It sounds like it from Liam's post. Has it aged well? I would not choose these videos over a more modern resource. Does it hold value now? It's an interesting historic piece and helps me understand why some people ski the way they do. 

 

 

Hehe, what modern resource would you prefer?  I don't know of very many that explain these concepts this well actually.  And the concepts are absolutely applicable today, regardless of the fact that Lito was skiing on his heels or rotating his upper a bit or the fact his skis were harder to ski on compared to today.  Its the same moves needed today that he was explaining and teaching.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

bts, you feel that in your good turns you almost always roll the inside ski onto an imaginary edge (rather than on the real edge)? Your legs are so close that your inside leg is touching your outside leg? You should watch the video to see what he's demonstrating - the words sound fine, but the picture is not. 

 

 

Yes I always roll the inside ski onto the LTE.  Lito likes to be poetic and I didn't see that section of video, but I can easily see why he may have tried to use some notions of imaginary edge (since the ski is lightened so much).  He's trying to make the point that you roll the inside ski onto the LTE as if its edged and engaged, even though its lightened to the point that its not engaged.  Makes perfect sense to me.  Doesn't make sense to you?  

 

Legs so close that the outside boot is brought in towards the outside boot.  Sure why not?  This can be very effective.  Do you understand why he was teaching and doing that?  You have no idea how many times I tell my students to get their skis closer together because everything is easier to do when they do!  Berger was also skiing with his skis very very close together.  That style has become out of fashion in recent years, but its entirely debatable about whether that is a good thing or not.  Certainly, if nothing else, using a narrow stance to learn these principles is a very good idea to play with.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

Do you like to rotate into your turns (I don't think he faced down the fall line during a single short radius turn in the video)? 

 

Yea I hear you, he never would have made the demo team.  Still his instruction is solid.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 Do you like to keep your stance so tight that you have no independent leg steering? 

 

I'm not a fan of the so called trendy ILS, so to me it matters nothing whatsoever whether the stance is wide or narrow.  I have most of my weight on the outside ski, if not all the weight.  Narrower stance makes tipping the inside ski easier.  For the situation they were skiing and the concepts they were discussing, I find no problem with it.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

Do you enjoy skiing at low edge angles? 

 

Yes sometimes I do!  and sometimes not.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

Do you enjoy not carving, but telling people you're carving? (This premise is visible throughout the video - the only time he leaves pencil tracks is during low speed low aspect exercises.)

 

Yes sometimes I do!  But Lito was demonstrating carving throughout this video.  I don't agree with your assessment of what constitutes carving.  Lito was not trying to arc, never did I hear him say anything about thin pencil lines.  Again, forget about semantics and look to what he was attempting to demonstrate and explain.  I realize you young guys think carving=arcing.  So be it, but there is a grey area in the middle you are missing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

Is it possible that your memory of the "good old days" is clouding how you perceive these videos?

 

No.  is it possible your ignorance is clouding yours?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

The videos demonstrate what we'd now consider great intermediate skiing.

 

That demonstrates ignorance of what he was demonstrating.  If you consider that intermediate skiing, you have a lot to learn yet.  Intermediates cannot do what Lito was doing, not then, and not now, upper rotary or not.  But again, it seems to me you are focusing more on comparing the athleticism of Lito to some other hot shots you like, rather then listening to the concepts and seeking true understanding of his "instructional video".

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 I would hope that any good level 2 skis better than what the videos demonstrate. 

 

I don't know any L2's that can ski that well in terms of the carving mechanics he was demonstrating and the round turn shapes he was getting.  Particularly on the older gear.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

But we're also 20 years later, skiing technology has improved, the average skier is skiing more terrain at higher performance levels, and expectations are different. I give the guy credit for what he accomplished at the time, but let's be honest - I can't imagine this caliber of skiing would pass the CSIA level 4. 

 

Expectations with easier equipment are higher, no doubt.  Why do you feel you need to pick a guy out from 20 years ago who was doing some damn fine teaching and demonstrating, and compare it to today's younger guys on easier equipment and declare him null and void?  There is a lot to learn from Lito's material, even today and even some of the hot shots I know you love could probably learn from it.  I have no idea what a CSIA L4 skied like 20 years ago and whether or not Lito would pass that exam, that's kind of a silly argument to consider don't you think?  Comparing him to what the kids are doing today on supremely easier equipment is just silly.  

 

This is both a reaction and a response.  I find Litos material 100% relevant today, I don't care that he has a few deficiencies in his own skiing, he has plenty of great things going on and explains it all beautifully and I find it totally and completely relevant today.

 

peace

post #12 of 21

I have a sketchy wife to.

post #13 of 21

Getting on the new outside ski very early in the turn, and keeping the new inside ski off the snow, encourages the student to use the ski to make the turn, and in the process learn how to balance on the outside ski. Whether Lito originated the idea of "phantom edging", or it came from someone/somewhere else, I've often thought it's a brilliant stealth teaching move, as it addresses and helps avoid one of the most common faults of beginner and intermediate skiers - leaning into the hill.

 

Clicking to watch will jump to a section of the video (27:14) that shows that clearly...

 

 

Focus on the outside ski, bringing the inside ski more into play over time as a skier develops - perhaps not such a bad way to proceed?

post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 

I am the originator of this thread and the purpose of it is to compare and contrast skiing styles of today and 20-30 years ago.  I read Lito's book "Breakthrough on Skis" when it was first published. Both equipment and expectations are significantly different today. Why, back in the day a "blistering" tennis serve was about 116mph. Today guys like Andy Roddick regularly serve at 150mph.  Not a lot of skiers thought of regularly jumping off cliffs and doing aerials.  A lot has changed, but a few things have stayed the same.  

 

There are few misconceptions which I hope to clear up. Please forgive me if I pick on a comment belonging to you. It's nothing personal. I would just like to discuss them. 

 

>>>Focus on the outside ski, bringing the inside ski more into play over time as a skier develops - perhaps not such a bad way to proceed?">>>

 

This is what a lot of folks teach and how a lot of folks ski, but there are a lot of misconceptions here. 

 

First, focusing on the outside ski doesn't address most of issues that higher level skiers encounter, but focusing on the inside ski will directly translate to the outside ski activity. (More on that later when I address the concept of the phantom foot).  The turn (shape and intensity) and tracking of the center of mass will dictate when pressure should be transferred to the outside ski. What is required to successfully transfer pressure is either moving the center of mass more toward that ski, or relying on speed, the shape of the arc, momentum and centripetal force, pulling your CoM toward the outside allowing the inside to retract, thus DISTRIBUTING more of the pressure on the outside.  Timing is everything. Premature attempts to transfer pressure too early to the outside ski often result in moving the CoM away from its proper tracking route,  distrupting the dynamics and flow of the turn.  Stepping to the outside ski too early often results in rising and moving the CoM slightly uphill. It is important that the CoM continuously move toward the general direction of travel (downhill). Based on how the CoM travels determines when it is optimal to begin pressure transfer to the outside. Of course being able to balance largely on the outside ski is a good thing, but can be counter productive to do it too early.   IMO the primary focus needs to be on the travel of the CoM, not the outside ski. Focusing on the CoM provides many more pressure transfer options. It is also important to note that a good turn shape is a given. 

 

Additionally, I think the continuous, active inside ski is one of the most overlooked and misunderstood ski movements and typically warrants more focus than focusing on the outside ski. Harald Harb has brought this into the mainstream (with PSIA kicking and screaming... and finally adopting) with his "phantom foot".  But even having skied with Harald a few times I'm not sure even he explains sufficiently how it actually works. Most people think of the phantom foot as a tool to help pressure the outside ski.  Well, ok it does. But there is one other element not often discussed.  Why is it important to TIP the raised outside ski in a phantom foot move?  Try this: Just stand up and JUST LIFT up your left boot, balancing on your right. Now try to turn your right foot as if you were making rotary motions while skiing. Remember how that feels. Now, do it again, but this time tip your left foot to your baby toe edge as if you were engaging the phantom foot and try to turn your right as before. Does that feel different?  I know it feels a lot different for me.  First, I feel that my left femur stabilizes in its hip socket and my right leg is stronger as I make the rotary movements.  Why the difference? 

 

That stability in the hips produced by the foot tipping generates a small amount of torque (resistance) that travels across the pelvis to the right leg. So,while sking the phantom foot move helps to power the activity of the outside leg.  It bears repeating that lifting the foot as Harb describes in his lessons essentially forces the CoM to balance early, but the addition of the tipping of the inside not only creates rotational torque across the pelvis, it also helps pull the CoM into the proper position for balancing on the outside. But remember (as we're contrasting Lito's hay day) our modern equipment allows a lot of this as the skis can load up a lot earlier in the turn, creating much earlier centripetal forces earlier in the turn at lower speeds than before. 

 

Now take this phantom foot move and instead of lifting the inside off the snow, keep both skis on the snow as your make this move. Edging/turning the inside ski in the direction of the turn while in the snow creates additional resistance and torque that travels from the inside to the outside, generating even more power on the outside. It also allows for more angulation, more edging and more pressure transfer options while being able to adjust and modify the travel of the CoM as needed. Instead of a one-size-fits-all-turns type of turn the skier has a fluid system of skiing in all conditions. The proof is in the different conditions in which we ski. Some conditions require 100% of the pressure on the outside ski as early as the turn dictates. Some conditions we will distribute pressure closer to 50/50.  It varies, no?  So, again, the important thing to focus on is the travel of the Center of Mass and secondarily activating the inside ski so that the outside ski will have the power it needs to do the job. I failed to mention earlier that proper position of the CoM unlocks the feet. The advanced skier's CoM will PASS THRU the proper position and momentarily unlock the feet and allow them to work well in that time window, while the expert's CoM tracks the proper position throughout each turn allowing for fine adjustments throughout each turn.

 

Sorry for the length and the complexity of my post. I thought it might be helpful to some. 

post #15 of 21

I have previously come across other discussions of the benefits of the phantom edging/move that have to do with body alignment and function, along the same lines as your well articulated post above. And I wouldn't argue against any of that, nor that those benefits that come with some focus on, (or at least awareness of), the inside ski, whether it leaves the snow or not, might be of particular interest to higher level skiers.

 

But Lito's materials were primarily targeted to beginners and intermediates, and I would suggest that in that context it's the getting on the outside ski early and exclusively that is most important and of the most benefit. Not being balanced and leaning in to the hill - top of the fault list.

post #16 of 21

First I want to say, again, that nothing about Lito's video above is outdated today.  Skiing has not changed that much since then.  New skis have just made it all easier, nothing more.  Fat skis and rocker technology  makes it possible for people to basically ignore technique and just bomb it.  Ok fine if that rocks your boat then great, but if you want to learn how to ski on a ski with sidecuts, its the same now as it was 40 years go on so called straight skis, and 20 years ago on the first shaped skis...its the same technique then as now.  Of course some people have tried to reinvent the wheel and the success of that is debatable.  Some people may think things have changed, but really its just people trying to think they can come up with something new, but in the end, the same technique espoused by Witherall and others is still being used today, but even more so since new equipment has simply made this more accessible to common recreational skiers.  Of course you are welcome to try to use some new fangled ILS or whatever approach, if you're having fun I don't care, but that by no means whatsoever outdates this stuff from Lito which is carving technique!

 

Secondly, about the purpose of the foot lifting move, it is MUCH more than just transferring weight to the outside ski, though that is part of it.  There is a big reason Lito talks about pulling the boot in close to the other book and tipping it towards the LTE, which vindibona explained well.  Harb and others have referred to this as the "kinetic chain", which is basically the notion that your ankle bone is connected to your shin bone, your shin bone connected to your thigh bone, your thigh bone connected to your hip bone, your hip bone connected to your other thigh bone, that thigh bone connected to shin bone, shin bone connected to outside ankle.  What this means is that tipping your foot causes your hip to be directly pulled into the inside of the turn by that action in your inside foot.  When the hip moves inside a tiny bit, the outside ski will be pulled onto its BTE automagically from this kinetic chain by aggressively lightening and tipping the inside foot.

 

Pulling the inside boot in closer the the outside boot during this enables that movement to be more pronounced, its difficult to do with a wide stance.  

 

So this movement is partly about lightening, but its also about tipping from the foot and enabling the kinetic chain from that to create angles in the lower body which pulls the hip across and begins developing edge angles for the skier.  It is BOTH things.

 

My understanding is that Lito and Harb are or at least were at some point, friends, here is an interview Lito did with Harb at some point:

 

http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/_ski_instruction/instruction05.html

 

I believe Harb credits Lito with actually coining the term "Phantom Edging", if I recall correctly.

Bottom line, Lito and Harb were onto very similar wave lengths with the inside foot activation and carve oriented technique, though they each have gone their own way with their own products and in some cases some differences of opinion in other areas from what I can tell.


Edited by borntoski683 - 1/23/15 at 12:57pm
post #17 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

 

...But Lito's materials were primarily targeted to beginners and intermediates, and I would suggest that in that context it's the getting on the outside ski early and exclusively that is most important and of the most benefit. Not being balanced and leaning in to the hill - top of the fault list.

I have no disagreements with you except for one. But there a couple things to note.  20-30 years ago we often taught things that had to relearn COMPLETELY different skills as we progressed as skiers. As an example, we would first learn a snowplow, followed by a basic turn created by thrusting the tail of the outside ski across the fall line. That would be followed by Wedge Christie I, the WC II, followed by parallel initiation, followed by dynamic parallel (which really wasn't very dynamic at all- just muscled around a lot).  Today we can teach direct to parallel, but that requires a change in approach. 

 

"Getting" to the outside early is a failed concept in most situations and completely misunderstood.  Turn shape, balance and how one travels along with the skis is much more important. A good turn shape will create an arc, which by its very existence creates centripetal force. That force will pull the skier toward the outside ski in its due course. Active use of the inside ski will help the new skier's CoM track better, and thus AS A RESULT of proper tracking and travel, momentum (speed), the arc of the turn (turn shape) centripetal force resisted by a proper base of support will put pressure on the outside ski (appropriately) earlier. Most skiers (and instructors) have it bass-ackwards. FLOW is the name of the game, not "get to the outside ski early". 

post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post

 

"Getting" to the outside early is a failed concept in most situations and completely misunderstood.  Turn shape, balance and how one travels along with the skis is much more important. A good turn shape will create an arc, which by its very existence creates centripetal force. That force will pull the skier toward the outside ski in its due course. Active use of the inside ski will help the new skier's CoM track better, and thus AS A RESULT of proper tracking and travel, momentum (speed), the arc of the turn (turn shape) centripetal force resisted by a proper base of support will put pressure on the outside ski (appropriately) earlier. Most skiers (and instructors) have it bass-ackwards. FLOW is the name of the game, not "get to the outside ski early". 

 

Totally disagree with you vindibona.  It is absolutely NOT a failed concept.  Not to discount FLOW, flow is great too!  Its also possible to ski with late outside ski engagement, and that has been presented for decades also.  Its also possible to both FLOW and obtain early outside ski engagement.  

 

There is a time and place for all of it, but by no means does that make it a "failed concept" to get to the outside ski early, particularly if you trying to work on carving skills.

 

There is nothing out dated here.

post #19 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Totally disagree with you vindibona.  It is absolutely NOT a failed concept.  Not to discount FLOW, flow is great too!  Its also possible to ski with late outside ski engagement, and that has been presented for decades also.  Its also possible to both FLOW and obtain early outside ski engagement.  

 

There is a time and place for all of it, but by no means does that make it a "failed concept" to get to the outside ski early, particularly if you trying to work on carving skills.

 

There is nothing out dated here.

Then we are going to agree to disagree.  I can only tell you how many students I have to correct who use their outside skis improperly thus misdirecting their CoM throwing everything out of whack in varying degrees.  The early outside ski is the RESULT good technique, not the CAUSE. 

post #20 of 21

oh wait, is early outside ski good or bad?  You made it sound a minute ago that its a failed concept and told us to flow instead and let it happen a little later.  Are you saying now early outside ski balance is good but you just don't want your students to do it consciously?

post #21 of 21

I have hours  of world cup race tapes from the 90's.  It's now amazing how crude the skiers looked by todays standards.  Even though we were trying to arc the skis in those days,   skis from that era just didn't turn like our skis today.   However, if you look at still shots from that era and compare them to today, they don't look all that different.  Skis on edge, balanced over the outside ski while maintaining the hip counter rotation and angulation.    YM

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